Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[Johnny_P]

Half the yellow GTI’s I found are lemon buybacks. Makes me feel better about buying the yacht

[coogles]

Half the yellow GTI’s I found are lemon buybacks. Makes me feel better about buying the yacht

MK8s have had tons of electrical issues, especially the early ones.

[Johnny_P]

Kind of where they sit here also…

So is the consensus that a brand new gti at 10k less than a USED shitvic is not the way to go ?

I mean 34k (pre tax) is not exactly THAT much money for a new car. It’s pretty darn cheap in todays world and even in line with historical GTI prices from 5-7 years ago

I mean, I like the Type R more and think (especially used at $43K) it'll be less costly to own. But what I like better? They both have their merits.

Civic Good:
-more special/rare/enthusiast cred
-faster and better handling performance
-Lower depreciation
-No annoying interface/has volume knob

GTI Good:
-Cheaper
-Better ride quality/luxury

Check insurance rates on the Honda. Might be double the GTI.

[max225]

To elaborate a little bit on the current picture and situation.

It may seem strange to some but I have near 0 interest in piling on MILES on a special low slung sports car and or driving it daily.

Sure growing up, when I turned 21 I bought myself a C5 corvette and proceeded to daily it .. I mean DAILY. Put 15k miles on it in my first year before coming to my senses. Rain or shine I took that thing to work, to the canyons to street park in SF, everywhere.

It is NOT how I want to spend my time in a vehicle right now. Rough, cramped, loud, scrapy McScrape, fuel inefficient etc. I think there is a time and a place for that and that time is not NOW for me.

I’m currently spending 99.9% of my time driving a BMW minivan with 550hp. It’s fast and it’s comfortable and it does an amazing job at what it is designed to do.

What am I looking for ?

I’m looking for something smaller, lighter, a bit more fun, light ish on the wallet (sub 50k otd), that doesn’t require wrenching, and doesn’t beat me up if I do decide to pile on the miles.

I think the answer has been found. I know some y’all mean very well and are suggesting, more fun, more unique vehicles but they simply don’t fit the current “need”.

We go to sporty and that thing will end up parked causing me count the penny’s because it’s sitting there with no use but still requiring maintenance and insurance. You go too boring ?! And you end up exactly where I am now and is the point. It has to be a balance.

My situation like everyone’s changes over time and it does prompt some sort of change in vehicle for me … likely going to be doing this again if/when the woman finds a job and the kid gets older and more independent.

So you're leaving a out to again in 6 months. MOST

Why not? Also at the current pace of the job market I’m not expecting shit for 12 months …

[max225]

I mean, I like the Type R more and think (especially used at $43K) it'll be less costly to own. But what I like better? They both have their merits.

Civic Good:
-more special/rare/enthusiast cred
-faster and better handling performance
-Lower depreciation
-No annoying interface/has volume knob

GTI Good:
-Cheaper
-Better ride quality/luxury

Check insurance rates on the Honda. Might be double the GTI.

I think I posted them already. But here is where we stand: (6 month quotes)
1420 M3
1250 I4 M50
688 type R
608 gti
590 countryman SE

[max225]

Kind of where they sit here also…

So is the consensus that a brand new gti at 10k less than a USED shitvic is not the way to go ?

I mean 34k (pre tax) is not exactly THAT much money for a new car. It’s pretty darn cheap in todays world and even in line with historical GTI prices from 5-7 years ago

I mean, I like the Type R more and think (especially used at $43K) it'll be less costly to own. But what I like better? They both have their merits.

Civic Good:
-more special/rare/enthusiast cred
-faster and better handling performance
-Lower depreciation
-No annoying interface/has volume knob

GTI Good:
-Cheaper
-Better ride quality/luxury

I would say to some degree the jury may still be out on the civic but I could still be lying to myself depreciation wise.

Assuming bought used vs a new gti yes def lower depreciation.

But then again i can get a used gti at 29k and at that point it once again becomes a moot point, both will drop 10k in 3 years. As a % it will depreciate less yes but it also costs 50% more (civic)

[max225]

The reason why I bring this up is … I was looking at type Rs in 2022 when they first hit as 2023 models. No one would sell one for under 60k. To say that looking at their current prices @ msrp vs used and pretend that there wasn’t this massive difference between what people actually paid in 2022-3 is a bit deceitful. People paid at least 15k over with most being 20 over.

For ex you could get a gti at sticker and now they lost about 12k since … a comparable civic with 15k markup lost 20K.

So just gonna leave that here … current trends could continue push both cars down significantly. At the end of the day as special as they “are” they are still econoshitboxes at heart. And frankly the gti is slightly less shitboxy than a civic imo.

And the gap between the two has actually maintained at a pretty shockingly stable 15-20k from 2022 to today …

[D Griff]

The reason why I bring this up is … I was looking at type Rs in 2022 when they first hit as 2023 models. No one would sell one for under 60k. To say that looking at their current prices @ msrp vs used and pretend that there wasn’t this massive difference between what people actually paid in 2022-3 is a bit deceitful. People paid at least 15k over with most being 20 over.

For ex you could get a gti at sticker and now they lost about 12k since … a comparable civic with 15k markup lost 20K.

So just gonna leave that here … current trends could continue push both cars down significantly. At the end of the day as special as they “are” they are still econoshitboxes at heart. And frankly the gti is slightly less shitboxy than a civic imo.

And the gap between the two has actually maintained at a pretty shockingly stable 15-20k from 2022 to today …

You're but 2022 was an outlier IMO. Anyone dumb enough to pay $15K over for a (relatively) mass produced vehicle was either dumb, gave no shits, or just found it worth $15K to be the first.

If you look at the Typpe R over longer, the FK8 gen is still at around MSRP (which don't forget was $35K when that came out, times have changed). Add to that that most people think the FK8 is fugly and like the new new, plus Honda came out and said the new new will be the best/end.

Hell, Civic Si has had epic resale for a decade plus. EK gens are worth $40K in great shape and they were $19K new.

[max225]

The reason why I bring this up is … I was looking at type Rs in 2022 when they first hit as 2023 models. No one would sell one for under 60k. To say that looking at their current prices @ msrp vs used and pretend that there wasn’t this massive difference between what people actually paid in 2022-3 is a bit deceitful. People paid at least 15k over with most being 20 over.

For ex you could get a gti at sticker and now they lost about 12k since … a comparable civic with 15k markup lost 20K.

So just gonna leave that here … current trends could continue push both cars down significantly. At the end of the day as special as they “are” they are still econoshitboxes at heart. And frankly the gti is slightly less shitboxy than a civic imo.

And the gap between the two has actually maintained at a pretty shockingly stable 15-20k from 2022 to today …

You're but 2022 was an outlier IMO. Anyone dumb enough to pay $15K over for a (relatively) mass produced vehicle was either dumb, gave no shits, or just found it worth $15K to be the first.

If you look at the Typpe R over longer, the FK8 gen is still at around MSRP (which don't forget was $35K when that came out, times have changed). Add to that that most people think the FK8 is fugly and like the new new, plus Honda came out and said the new new will be the best/end.

Hell, Civic Si has had epic resale for a decade plus. EK gens are worth $40K in great shape and they were $19K new.

This is all correct but when I looked FK8 with 35-7k “msrp” they were 10k over as well. I test drove a 1 year old at carmax 2k above msrp. 39k or so…

This has been going on for a long time … but I think the current msrps are finally in line with what people think these cars are worth.

Old low mile jap specialty cars are always $$$$

I won’t own any one of em long enough

[max225]

but yea that’s the state of affairs

[max225]

Checked my phone this was back in May 2023 where so cal Toyota dealers were offering me a used one at 59 and a new one at 15k over plus accessories and unwilling to budge ( this is now 3k over)

[CaleDeRoo]

The 4.7 Vantage is my attainable dream car

[Johnny_P]

The reason why I bring this up is … I was looking at type Rs in 2022 when they first hit as 2023 models. No one would sell one for under 60k. To say that looking at their current prices @ msrp vs used and pretend that there wasn’t this massive difference between what people actually paid in 2022-3 is a bit deceitful. People paid at least 15k over with most being 20 over.

For ex you could get a gti at sticker and now they lost about 12k since … a comparable civic with 15k markup lost 20K.

So just gonna leave that here … current trends could continue push both cars down significantly. At the end of the day as special as they “are” they are still econoshitboxes at heart. And frankly the gti is slightly less shitboxy than a civic imo.

And the gap between the two has actually maintained at a pretty shockingly stable 15-20k from 2022 to today …

Yes the GTI is less shitboxy than a civic. That’s always been the case between the civic and golf.

[Melon2.0]

I enjoy Tedward. We have similar tastes in cars too.

[MexicanYarisTK]

I enjoy Tedward. We have similar tastes in cars too.

Me dos, also his podcasts too.

[D Griff]

I enjoy Tedward. We have similar tastes in cars too.

Me dos, also his podcasts too.

Oh I’ll have to check these out. I don’t usually have much time for YouTube anymore these days so podcasts are always appreciated.

[D Griff]

Checked my phone this was back in May 2023 where so cal Toyota dealers were offering me a used one at 59 and a new one at 15k over plus accessories and unwilling to budge ( this is now 3k over)

This person’s grammar…

I don’t really see how the markups can last forever if used examples for less are widely available. People (such as yourself) that have $50+k to spend you would think are smart enough to see that it’s money lit on fire and just won’t do it, no?

I mean that dumb texter had a point in 2022 but things have changed dramatically in the market, including this car, where you have used examples with decent prices advertised and plenty of new ones around at most dealers.

I would imagine later in the FK8 run they stopped being $10k over. Had the new one not launched when everything was unavailable, I bet the priors would have had cash on the hood at that time, and they’re still MSRPish.

All this versus a GTI which is basically seen as a regular car on a linear path down by the market.

So to me, Civic with $10k miles is the cheapest to own of what you’re looking at… but then the GTI gets slightly more enticing because it’s new versus used.

Tough call man. Get whichever rustles your jimmies more.

[Melon2.0]

Me dos, also his podcasts too.

Oh I’ll have to check these out. I don’t usually have much time for YouTube anymore these days so podcasts are always appreciated.

His POV car reviews are probably right up your alley.
He's also a BMW/Porsche fan. He has an E39, had an E90 and has a FL5 CTR.

[Melon2.0]

All this GTI talk has me wanting to swing by the VW dealer and check one out. Just for shits & giggs

[coogles]

All this GTI talk has me wanting to swing by the VW dealer and check one out. Just for shits & giggs

Yeah Max has me thinking I should have just bought the one I test drove a few months back. I'd be getting way more use out of it than the GR86.

Atlantic blue was only offered early in 2024 and there aren't any Autobahns left.

[max225]

All this GTI talk has me wanting to swing by the VW dealer and check one out. Just for shits & giggs

Yeah Max has me thinking I should have just bought the one I test drove a few months back. I'd be getting way more use out of it than the GR86.

Atlantic blue was only offered early in 2024 and there aren't any Autobahns left.

We’re sitting heavy on those (autobahn trims) Remind me again why you want an autobahn? I’m curious in case I missed something that trim offers

[max225]

All this GTI talk has me wanting to swing by the VW dealer and check one out. Just for shits & giggs

Why not ?

[max225]

Checked my phone this was back in May 2023 where so cal Toyota dealers were offering me a used one at 59 and a new one at 15k over plus accessories and unwilling to budge ( this is now 3k over)

This person’s grammar…

I don’t really see how the markups can last forever if used examples for less are widely available. People (such as yourself) that have $50+k to spend you would think are smart enough to see that it’s money lit on fire and just won’t do it, no?

I mean that dumb texter had a point in 2022 but things have changed dramatically in the market, including this car, where you have used examples with decent prices advertised and plenty of new ones around at most dealers.

I would imagine later in the FK8 run they stopped being $10k over. Had the new one not launched when everything was unavailable, I bet the priors would have had cash on the hood at that time, and they’re still MSRPish.

All this versus a GTI which is basically seen as a regular car on a linear path down by the market.

So to me, Civic with $10k miles is the cheapest to own of what you’re looking at… but then the GTI gets slightly more enticing because it’s new versus used.

Tough call man. Get whichever rustles your jimmies more.

Maybe it was “luck” but I did buy my taco during the “peak” bullshit years rare blah blah. It’s actually far rarer than any civic type R ever will be. Paid no markup. Can’t do the same here.

My point was just to show that “no depreciation” is an absolute myth on the type R. Because the msrp is not what anyone pays (paid).

[coogles]

We’re sitting heavy on those. Remind me again why you want an autobahn? I’m curious in case I missed something that trim offers

This would be a car I'd need to share with , so it would have to be DSG. I'd also prefer to have memory seats if we're going to be swapping cars all the time, which only come with the leather package. At that point you're at the SE w/leather trim at minimum, so the jump to Autobahn to get the adjustable dampers and wheels I don't hate would be worth it to me.

[max225]

We’re sitting heavy on those. Remind me again why you want an autobahn? I’m curious in case I missed something that trim offers

This would be a car I'd need to share with , so it would have to be DSG. I'd also prefer to have memory seats if we're going to be swapping cars all the time, which only come with the leather package. At that point you're at the SE w/leather trim at minimum, so the jump to Autobahn to get the adjustable dampers and wheels I don't hate would be worth it to me.

Interesting the SE 380 I was looking at is $2000 less
Than then Auto Bahn and it comes with the adjustable dampers and memory seats etc.

The main thing the autobahn has is the rear climate screen + heads up display from what I can gather