Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

[CaleDeRoo]

The only tuning worth a damned IMO would be a HIGHLY reputable shop doing a custom tune for you to get the car dialed in exactly how you want it. It is pretty incredible what tuning can accomplish on a car, but it's 100% lighting money on fire.

This is why I haven't done it. There are plenty of shops in a day's drive that would do a great job. The cost gets pretty stupid though. Dyno tune plus an accessport and required mods for more precise fuel control you're looking at about $1500 or more. Then its the slippery slope of why do all that and not go full retard with a downpipe and whatnot.

300 WHP would be awesome in my car though. As is, it makes about 230-250 stock depending on the dyno.

My friend's WRX makes 320whp and has a 6spd swap. It's addicting.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The only tuning worth a damned IMO would be a HIGHLY reputable shop doing a custom tune for you to get the car dialed in exactly how you want it. It is pretty incredible what tuning can accomplish on a car, but it's 100% lighting money on fire.

This is why I haven't done it. There are plenty of shops in a day's drive that would do a great job. The cost gets pretty stupid though. Dyno tune plus an accessport and required mods for more precise fuel control you're looking at about $1500 or more. Then its the slippery slope of why do all that and not go full retard with a downpipe and whatnot.

300 WHP would be awesome in my car though. As is, it makes about 230-250 stock depending on the dyno.

Oh...I know all about the slippery slope. I went from doing a clutch in my C5 to heads, cam, gears, tuning, etc, etc, etc

I'd be more concerned about the car's staying power. You've been going back and forth on it for a while. Dont' spend the money if the car's not sticking around for the long haul.

But if it is, I'd absolutely do a few mods before tuning. You only want to pay for tuning once...and yes even small changes can impact the tune.

[max225]

The only tuning worth a damned IMO would be a HIGHLY reputable shop doing a custom tune for you to get the car dialed in exactly how you want it. It is pretty incredible what tuning can accomplish on a car, but it's 100% lighting money on fire.

This is why I haven't done it. There are plenty of shops in a day's drive that would do a great job. The cost gets pretty stupid though. Dyno tune plus an accessport and required mods for more precise fuel control you're looking at about $1500 or more. Then its the slippery slope of why do all that and not go full retard with a downpipe and whatnot.

300 WHP would be awesome in my car though. As is, it makes about 230-250 stock depending on the dyno.

Depends on goals here

[CaleDeRoo]

This is why I haven't done it. There are plenty of shops in a day's drive that would do a great job. The cost gets pretty stupid though. Dyno tune plus an accessport and required mods for more precise fuel control you're looking at about $1500 or more. Then its the slippery slope of why do all that and not go full retard with a downpipe and whatnot.

300 WHP would be awesome in my car though. As is, it makes about 230-250 stock depending on the dyno.

Oh...I know all about the slippery slope. I went from doing a clutch in my C5 to heads, cam, gears, tuning, etc, etc, etc

I'd be more concerned about the car's staying power. You've been going back and forth on it for a while. Dont' spend the money if the car's not sticking around for the long haul.

But if it is, I'd absolutely do a few mods before tuning. You only want to pay for tuning once...and yes even small changes can impact the tune.

The sad reality is that even a CAI requires a on those cars. So you either tune on a stock platform or you full :rabithole:

[max225]

What is the actual gain from a CAI, also I find that term misleading as most OEM intakes are actually CAI. But aftermarket conical shit is always WAI

[ChrisoftheNorth]

What is the actual gain from a CAI, also I find that term misleading as most OEM intakes are actually CAI. But aftermarket conical shit is always WAI

I had a tuner tell me that a CAI does more harm than good if a car's not tuned for it. He claimed they redirect air flow in a way so that the MAF doesn't read 100% accurate, so the engine is getting more or less air than it thinks.

He did say that the more direct airflow when tuned for can actually have a nice gain in performance. BUT nobody tunes for CAIs and are probably resulting in best case same performance as stock.

[troyguitar]

What is the actual gain from a CAI, also I find that term misleading as most OEM intakes are actually CAI. But aftermarket conical shit is always WAI

It's really different for each combo of engine, intake, tune, and other mods. There's no simple general answer.

[max225]

What is the actual gain from a CAI, also I find that term misleading as most OEM intakes are actually CAI. But aftermarket conical shit is always WAI

I had a tuner tell me that a CAI does more harm than good if a car's not tuned for it. He claimed they redirect air flow in a way so that the MAF doesn't read 100% accurate, so the engine is getting more or less air than it thinks.

He did say that the more direct airflow when tuned for can actually have a nice gain in performance. BUT nobody tunes for CAIs and are probably resulting in best case same performance as stock.

My friends brother cousins friend gained 50whp you're a asshole

[Johnny_P]

What is the actual gain from a CAI, also I find that term misleading as most OEM intakes are actually CAI. But aftermarket conical shit is always WAI

I had a tuner tell me that a CAI does more harm than good if a car's not tuned for it. He claimed they redirect air flow in a way so that the MAF doesn't read 100% accurate, so the engine is getting more or less air than it thinks.

He did say that the more direct airflow when tuned for can actually have a nice gain in performance. BUT nobody tunes for CAIs and are probably resulting in best case same performance as stock.

If you have a turbo car that's sucking in more air you can approach limits of the factory air filter and need a larger filter surface area. It'll become a restriction. Likely little to no benefit for an NA car.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I had a tuner tell me that a CAI does more harm than good if a car's not tuned for it. He claimed they redirect air flow in a way so that the MAF doesn't read 100% accurate, so the engine is getting more or less air than it thinks.

He did say that the more direct airflow when tuned for can actually have a nice gain in performance. BUT nobody tunes for CAIs and are probably resulting in best case same performance as stock.

If you have a turbo car that's sucking in more air you can approach limits of the factory air filter and need a larger filter surface area. It'll become a restriction. Likely little to no benefit for an NA car.

Ah yes, this is a very good point. I have minimal experience with forced induction.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I had a tuner tell me that a CAI does more harm than good if a car's not tuned for it. He claimed they redirect air flow in a way so that the MAF doesn't read 100% accurate, so the engine is getting more or less air than it thinks.

He did say that the more direct airflow when tuned for can actually have a nice gain in performance. BUT nobody tunes for CAIs and are probably resulting in best case same performance as stock.

My friends brother cousins friend gained 50whp you're a asshole

[Johnny_P]

If you have a turbo car that's sucking in more air you can approach limits of the factory air filter and need a larger filter surface area. It'll become a restriction. Likely little to no benefit for an NA car.

Ah yes, this is a very good point. I have minimal experience with forced induction.

I mean. I loved my AEM long dick cold air intake I had on my (lol) Ford Focus. But I'd be lying if I said it gave me any gains. If anything it lowered HP. But it made such fun loud ass noises I didn't care.

[Johnny_P]

This is why I haven't done it. There are plenty of shops in a day's drive that would do a great job. The cost gets pretty stupid though. Dyno tune plus an accessport and required mods for more precise fuel control you're looking at about $1500 or more. Then its the slippery slope of why do all that and not go full retard with a downpipe and whatnot.

300 WHP would be awesome in my car though. As is, it makes about 230-250 stock depending on the dyno.

Oh...I know all about the slippery slope. I went from doing a clutch in my C5 to heads, cam, gears, tuning, etc, etc, etc

I'd be more concerned about the car's staying power. You've been going back and forth on it for a while. Dont' spend the money if the car's not sticking around for the long haul.

But if it is, I'd absolutely do a few mods before tuning. You only want to pay for tuning once...and yes even small changes can impact the tune.

It's not sticking around because we can't pave roads in this country and I want an automatic as all my driving sucks anyway.
This is more because I have idle time and my brain starts wandering, and this morning wandered to "what would my car be like tuned?" mode.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Ah yes, this is a very good point. I have minimal experience with forced induction.

I mean. I loved my AEM long dick cold air intake I had on my (lol) Ford Focus. But I'd be lying if I said it gave me any gains. If anything it lowered HP. But it made such fun loud ass noises I didn't care.

That's the thing. Be real with what you're buying...mostly a sound maker on NA cars. And that's fine if that's what you want.

The dude that tuned my C5 did claim that on a heads/cam car like mine, the CAI was probably worth almost 10hp after tuning. Less filter restriction, straighter airflow, etc.

Maybe but he claimed to have tuned Heads/cam cars both with and without CAIs and the CAI routinely posted better numbers.

[max225]

Ah yes, this is a very good point. I have minimal experience with forced induction.

I mean. I loved my AEM long dick cold air intake I had on my (lol) Ford Focus. But I'd be lying if I said it gave me any gains. If anything it lowered HP. But it made such fun loud ass noises I didn't care.

That's fair...
One of my favorite movie quotes of all time.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Oh...I know all about the slippery slope. I went from doing a clutch in my C5 to heads, cam, gears, tuning, etc, etc, etc

I'd be more concerned about the car's staying power. You've been going back and forth on it for a while. Dont' spend the money if the car's not sticking around for the long haul.

But if it is, I'd absolutely do a few mods before tuning. You only want to pay for tuning once...and yes even small changes can impact the tune.

It's not sticking around because we can't pave roads in this country and I want an automatic as all my driving sucks anyway.
This is more because I have idle time and my brain starts wandering, and this morning wandered to "what would my car be like tuned?" mode.

Ahhhh yes. Been there.

Lately I've been spending way too much time thinking about buying stuff that I'll never actually buy.

[Johnny_P]

https://youtu.be/Ye_ALPQqYLg?t=414

God, Jason is such a fucking nerd.

BUT, stock vs stage 1 STI. Knocks half a second off 0-60 with a brutal clutch dump. Which I have never done. Actually never "launched" this car over 2k RPM... Anyways. A little more torque in the 3k range should make it feel quite a bit faster.

[Johnny_P]

I mean. I loved my AEM long dick cold air intake I had on my (lol) Ford Focus. But I'd be lying if I said it gave me any gains. If anything it lowered HP. But it made such fun loud ass noises I didn't care.

That's the thing. Be real with what you're buying...mostly a sound maker on NA cars. And that's fine if that's what you want.

The dude that tuned my C5 did claim that on a heads/cam car like mine, the CAI was probably worth almost 10hp after tuning. Less filter restriction, straighter airflow, etc.

Maybe but he claimed to have tuned Heads/cam cars both with and without CAIs and the CAI routinely posted better numbers.

I bought it used for $40

[Johnny_P]

I mean. I loved my AEM long dick cold air intake I had on my (lol) Ford Focus. But I'd be lying if I said it gave me any gains. If anything it lowered HP. But it made such fun loud ass noises I didn't care.

That's fair...
One of my favorite movie quotes of all time.

[Johnny_P]

https://youtu.be/Ye_ALPQqYLg?t=414

God, Jason is such a fucking nerd.

BUT, stock vs stage 1 STI. Knocks half a second off 0-60 with a brutal clutch dump. Which I have never done. Actually never "launched" this car over 2k RPM... Anyways. A little more torque in the 3k range should make it feel quite a bit faster.

Also



This car is like 7-7.5 if you're not being brutal on it (white knuckle race vs a 4 cyl Altima). And 5.5 if you drive it like you hate it. Jesus.

[troyguitar]

I had a tuner tell me that a CAI does more harm than good if a car's not tuned for it. He claimed they redirect air flow in a way so that the MAF doesn't read 100% accurate, so the engine is getting more or less air than it thinks.

He did say that the more direct airflow when tuned for can actually have a nice gain in performance. BUT nobody tunes for CAIs and are probably resulting in best case same performance as stock.

My friends brother cousins friend gained 50whp you're a asshole

For reference, with an intake and a custom dyno tune I gained around 25 whp on the - from 355 to 380 at the wheels. The stock intake and tune aren't great on those cars.

On my 86 though? I wouldn't expect to see any increase at all, maybe 5 hp. The stock intake and tune are already pretty well optimized.

[max225]

https://youtu.be/Ye_ALPQqYLg?t=414

God, Jason is such a fucking nerd.

BUT, stock vs stage 1 STI. Knocks half a second off 0-60 with a brutal clutch dump. Which I have never done. Actually never "launched" this car over 2k RPM... Anyways. A little more torque in the 3k range should make it feel quite a bit faster.

So many variables here, but overall seems

[max225]

My friends brother cousins friend gained 50whp you're a asshole

For reference, with an intake and a custom dyno tune I gained around 25 whp on the - from 355 to 380 at the wheels. The stock intake and tune aren't great on those cars.

On my 86 though? I wouldn't expect to see any increase at all, maybe 5 hp. The stock intake and tune are already pretty well optimized.

Well dyno tune that's the driver for the gainzzz isn't it?

[Johnny_P]

It's not sticking around because we can't pave roads in this country and I want an automatic as all my driving sucks anyway.
This is more because I have idle time and my brain starts wandering, and this morning wandered to "what would my car be like tuned?" mode.

Ahhhh yes. Been there.

Lately I've been spending way too much time thinking about buying stuff that I'll never actually buy.

Right. I've gone down this hole before. Last time was black friday timing when a local flatbrim shop had deals on exhausts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZcm08CX3zM

[troyguitar]

For reference, with an intake and a custom dyno tune I gained around 25 whp on the - from 355 to 380 at the wheels. The stock intake and tune aren't great on those cars.

On my 86 though? I wouldn't expect to see any increase at all, maybe 5 hp. The stock intake and tune are already pretty well optimized.

Well dyno tune that's the driver for the gainzzz isn't it?

It's the two combined. Changing the system and then tuning it for that change.

Also 25 hp still isn't that much when you're starting out with over 350. In hindsight I wouldn't have bothered.