Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Totally doable in 15 years...to me the big question is, where will the electricity come from?

Natural gas ... from other states just like now.

That....doesn't seem to be solving a whole lot.

[max225]

Natural gas ... from other states just like now.

That....doesn't seem to be solving a whole lot.

Which is why I am livid with all this "conservation" bs, everyone is all talk and no one is willing to actually do something about it.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

That....doesn't seem to be solving a whole lot.

Which is why I am livid with all this "conservation" bs, everyone is all talk and no one is willing to actually do something about it.

I agree!

[ChrisoftheNorth]

FWIW, I support a move to EV's...but there needs to be more done to support infrastructure and increased use of renewable energy to support it. You're just trading one problem for another otherwise.

"Cars are 50% of emissions"...let's just make that someone else's problem!

And I'm still pissed about impacting the supply side of the equation rather than demand. It's REALLY hard for OEMs to plan, fund, and produce units that people don't want to spend money for. 2035 should be a good time table as batteries get cheaper and cheaper and BEVs should be nearing price parity with ICE, but who's going to pay for EV charging infrastructure at apartments where tons of people live?

[Melon]

That....doesn't seem to be solving a whole lot.

Which is why I am livid with all this "conservation" bs, everyone is all talk and no one is willing to actually do something about it.

Exactly.

I'm all for zero emissions future, but as it stands now, we are still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.
Also, we still need plastics, and other petroleum based polymers and materials.

But by far, energy generation is going to be the largest hurdle to overcome.
We're still working on modular nuclear, and again, fossil fuels have become the main way to generate power.

[D Griff]

FWIW, I support a move to EV's...but there needs to be more done to support infrastructure and increased use of renewable energy to support it. You're just trading one problem for another otherwise.

"Cars are 50% of emissions"...let's just make that someone else's problem!

And I'm still pissed about impacting the supply side of the equation rather than demand. It's REALLY hard for OEMs to plan, fund, and produce units that people don't want to spend money for. 2035 should be a good time table as batteries get cheaper and cheaper and BEVs should be nearing price parity with ICE, but who's going to pay for EV charging infrastructure at apartments where tons of people live?

I think that's anyway.

People's addiction to Amazon and the like are just as large an issue. That FedEx overnight or Prime tomorrow? Yeah, it is shit for the planet. Cruise ships, planes, shipping container ships etc. are all terrible.

[Huckleberry]

FWIW, I support a move to EV's...but there needs to be more done to support infrastructure and increased use of renewable energy to support it. You're just trading one problem for another otherwise.

"Cars are 50% of emissions"...let's just make that someone else's problem!

And I'm still pissed about impacting the supply side of the equation rather than demand. It's REALLY hard for OEMs to plan, fund, and produce units that people don't want to spend money for. 2035 should be a good time table as batteries get cheaper and cheaper and BEVs should be nearing price parity with ICE, but who's going to pay for EV charging infrastructure at apartments where tons of people live?

This is already a problem since people expect commercial buildings to just hand over their electrical outlets to them to charge their EVs. I had to deal with one asshole who thought it was his right to charge his vehicle at work, and he would pull into the loading dock, block a delivery space, and string an extension cord over walkways to do it. When he was told to knock it off, he started crying a song about how he has nowhere to charge his car because we won't let him do it at work and his apartment complex won't let him do it there, either. I'm told him tough titty. He tried to be slick and come in on the weekends and charge his vehicle. That's when HR stepped in and told him he could find a different charging location or find a new place of employment that offers charging. He ultimately chose the latter.

I have no problem with EVs. I do have a problem with this expectation that every business under the sun should be supplying ways to recharge them.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

FWIW, I support a move to EV's...but there needs to be more done to support infrastructure and increased use of renewable energy to support it. You're just trading one problem for another otherwise.

"Cars are 50% of emissions"...let's just make that someone else's problem!

And I'm still pissed about impacting the supply side of the equation rather than demand. It's REALLY hard for OEMs to plan, fund, and produce units that people don't want to spend money for. 2035 should be a good time table as batteries get cheaper and cheaper and BEVs should be nearing price parity with ICE, but who's going to pay for EV charging infrastructure at apartments where tons of people live?

I think that's anyway.

People's addiction to Amazon and the like are just as large an issue. That FedEx overnight or Prime tomorrow? Yeah, it is shit for the planet. Cruise ships, planes, shipping container ships etc. are all terrible.

[D Griff]

That....doesn't seem to be solving a whole lot.

Which is why I am livid with all this "conservation" bs, everyone is all talk and no one is willing to actually do something about it.

How about something like the UK that subsidizes bicycle commuters? Or credits for companies that continue WFH post pandemic? Or public transit that works?

Talking about some impossibility that they will hit in 15 years is a fucking waste of everyone's time.

[D Griff]

FWIW, I support a move to EV's...but there needs to be more done to support infrastructure and increased use of renewable energy to support it. You're just trading one problem for another otherwise.

"Cars are 50% of emissions"...let's just make that someone else's problem!

And I'm still pissed about impacting the supply side of the equation rather than demand. It's REALLY hard for OEMs to plan, fund, and produce units that people don't want to spend money for. 2035 should be a good time table as batteries get cheaper and cheaper and BEVs should be nearing price parity with ICE, but who's going to pay for EV charging infrastructure at apartments where tons of people live?

This is already a problem since people expect commercial buildings to just hand over their electrical outlets to them to charge their EVs. I had to deal with one asshole who thought it was his right to charge his vehicle at work, and he would pull into the loading dock, block a delivery space, and string an extension cord over walkways to do it. When he was told to knock it off, he started crying a song about how he has nowhere to charge his car because we won't let him do it at work and his apartment complex won't let him do it there, either. I'm told him tough titty. He tried to be slick and come in on the weekends and charge his vehicle. That's when HR stepped in and told him he could find a different charging location or find a new place of employment that offers charging. He ultimately chose the latter.

I have no problem with EVs. I do have a problem with this expectation that every business under the sun should be supplying ways to recharge them.

[max225]

The covid take out madness is the worst... 12 single use plastic containers for a dinner for 2

[ChrisoftheNorth]

FWIW, I support a move to EV's...but there needs to be more done to support infrastructure and increased use of renewable energy to support it. You're just trading one problem for another otherwise.

"Cars are 50% of emissions"...let's just make that someone else's problem!

And I'm still pissed about impacting the supply side of the equation rather than demand. It's REALLY hard for OEMs to plan, fund, and produce units that people don't want to spend money for. 2035 should be a good time table as batteries get cheaper and cheaper and BEVs should be nearing price parity with ICE, but who's going to pay for EV charging infrastructure at apartments where tons of people live?

This is already a problem since people expect commercial buildings to just hand over their electrical outlets to them to charge their EVs. I had to deal with one asshole who thought it was his right to charge his vehicle at work, and he would pull into the loading dock, block a delivery space, and string an extension cord over walkways to do it. When he was told to knock it off, he started crying a song about how he has nowhere to charge his car because we won't let him do it at work and his apartment complex won't let him do it there, either. I'm told him tough titty. He tried to be slick and come in on the weekends and charge his vehicle. That's when HR stepped in and told him he could find a different charging location or find a new place of employment that offers charging. He ultimately chose the latter.

I have no problem with EVs. I do have a problem with this expectation that every business under the sun should be supplying ways to recharge them.

Both business and residential rental. If you're going to ban ICE cars, the demand for charging is going to increase. So business owners will be forced to invest in charging to attract talent or why? Rental companies will be forced to install charging to keep places rented, which is just going to drive up the cost of rents. Everyone loses here.

In other countries that "ban" ICE cars, they do so along with an investment in renewable energy and infrastructure to support it. That's the right way to do it IMO. Forcing it on people to bear the brunt of the cost is just shitty, especially when people aren't demanding EVs to begin with. This country is still too addicted to the oil industry to cut it, so we're just going to keep going with these half measures that really screw over general consumers more than anyone else.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The covid take out madness is the worst... 12 single use plastic containers for a dinner for 2

Just the overall waste and pollution from COVID has probably set back environmental conservation decades. All the gloves and masks used one time. Most restaurants we go to use paper one-time use menus, then there's the ridiculous overuse of carryout containers and bags like you mentioned. They banned the use of reusable bags in grocery stores here (still don't understand that), and just started handing out paper or plastic bags like the good 'ol days.

[coogles]

Both business and residential rental. If you're going to ban ICE cars, the demand for charging is going to increase. So business owners will be forced to invest in charging to attract talent or why? Rental companies will be forced to install charging to keep places rented, which is just going to drive up the cost of rents. Everyone loses here.

In other countries that "ban" ICE cars, they do so along with an investment in renewable energy and infrastructure to support it. That's the right way to do it IMO. Forcing it on people to bear the brunt of the cost is just shitty, especially when people aren't demanding EVs to begin with. This country is still too addicted to the oil industry to cut it, so we're just going to keep going with these half measures that really screw over general consumers more than anyone else.

It's not just the right way, it's the only way. Without a power grid to support the extra charging requirements, the whole system will fall on its face. Farah has talked about it quite a bit on his podcast, but when he was building his storage facility business he wanted to put in a certain number of chargers, but the city would only let him put in something like half the number he wanted because the grid couldn't support the power draw. Not only will the country need power production, we'll also need a distribution network capable of handling the amount of energy currently being consumed in the form of gasoline instead. The investment that will require will be beyond massive.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Both business and residential rental. If you're going to ban ICE cars, the demand for charging is going to increase. So business owners will be forced to invest in charging to attract talent or why? Rental companies will be forced to install charging to keep places rented, which is just going to drive up the cost of rents. Everyone loses here.

In other countries that "ban" ICE cars, they do so along with an investment in renewable energy and infrastructure to support it. That's the right way to do it IMO. Forcing it on people to bear the brunt of the cost is just shitty, especially when people aren't demanding EVs to begin with. This country is still too addicted to the oil industry to cut it, so we're just going to keep going with these half measures that really screw over general consumers more than anyone else.

It's not just the right way, it's the only way. Without a power grid to support the extra charging requirements, the whole system will fall on its face. Farah has talked about it quite a bit on his podcast, but when he was building his storage facility business he wanted to put in a certain number of chargers, but the city would only let him put in something like half the number he wanted because the grid couldn't support the power draw. Not only will the country need power production, we'll also need a distribution network capable of handling the amount of energy currently being consumed in the form of gasoline instead. The investment that will require will be beyond massive.

Exactly...and if the .gov isn't willing to step up to provide funding, who will? It's going to be a disaster.

[D Griff]

The covid take out madness is the worst... 12 single use plastic containers for a dinner for 2

I hate the whole Uber Eats/Door Dash/ take out craze. So damn wasteful and also just so annoying to pay $60 for a meal for two that you're eating out of Styrofoam containers.

[coogles]

It's not just the right way, it's the only way. Without a power grid to support the extra charging requirements, the whole system will fall on its face. Farah has talked about it quite a bit on his podcast, but when he was building his storage facility business he wanted to put in a certain number of chargers, but the city would only let him put in something like half the number he wanted because the grid couldn't support the power draw. Not only will the country need power production, we'll also need a distribution network capable of handling the amount of energy currently being consumed in the form of gasoline instead. The investment that will require will be beyond massive.

Exactly...and if the .gov isn't willing to step up to provide funding, who will? It's going to be a disaster.

Yeah, there's no way utility companies are going to lever up to make those investments, or increase rates enough to fund them up front. It's coming from gubmint investment or it isn't happening.

[razr390]

This is already a problem since people expect commercial buildings to just hand over their electrical outlets to them to charge their EVs. I had to deal with one asshole who thought it was his right to charge his vehicle at work, and he would pull into the loading dock, block a delivery space, and string an extension cord over walkways to do it. When he was told to knock it off, he started crying a song about how he has nowhere to charge his car because we won't let him do it at work and his apartment complex won't let him do it there, either. I'm told him tough titty. He tried to be slick and come in on the weekends and charge his vehicle. That's when HR stepped in and told him he could find a different charging location or find a new place of employment that offers charging. He ultimately chose the latter.

I have no problem with EVs. I do have a problem with this expectation that every business under the sun should be supplying ways to recharge them.

Both business and residential rental. If you're going to ban ICE cars, the demand for charging is going to increase. So business owners will be forced to invest in charging to attract talent or why? Rental companies will be forced to install charging to keep places rented, which is just going to drive up the cost of rents. Everyone loses here.

In other countries that "ban" ICE cars, they do so along with an investment in renewable energy and infrastructure to support it. That's the right way to do it IMO. Forcing it on people to bear the brunt of the cost is just shitty, especially when people aren't demanding EVs to begin with. This country is still too addicted to the oil industry to cut it, so we're just going to keep going with these half measures that really screw over general consumers more than anyone else.

Gonna be dope to see the electrical grid get upgraded to handle EV-only vehicular traffic too. Isn’t strain on the electrical grid something that affects wildfires in California?

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The covid take out madness is the worst... 12 single use plastic containers for a dinner for 2

I hate the whole Uber Eats/Door Dash/ take out craze. So damn wasteful and also just so annoying to pay $60 for a meal for two that you're eating out of Styrofoam containers.

Uber eats/door dash screwed us too many times. Orders wrong, food cold, it's just not worth it. AND other than the container pollution, think about the vehicle pollution from these clapped out vehicles (in our area downstate at least) idling and driving in stop and go traffic all the time.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Both business and residential rental. If you're going to ban ICE cars, the demand for charging is going to increase. So business owners will be forced to invest in charging to attract talent or why? Rental companies will be forced to install charging to keep places rented, which is just going to drive up the cost of rents. Everyone loses here.

In other countries that "ban" ICE cars, they do so along with an investment in renewable energy and infrastructure to support it. That's the right way to do it IMO. Forcing it on people to bear the brunt of the cost is just shitty, especially when people aren't demanding EVs to begin with. This country is still too addicted to the oil industry to cut it, so we're just going to keep going with these half measures that really screw over general consumers more than anyone else.

Gonna be dope to see the electrical grid get upgraded to handle EV-only vehicular traffic too. Isn’t strain on the electrical grid something that affects wildfires in California?

Rolling blackouts to reduce stress, yep. So you lose your A/C when it's hot AF Then you can't even drive your car somewhere to escape it. Really great thinking.

If the .gov really cared, they'd figure out a way to make solar free for people to install on their homes. It's great for CA and with a powerwall or some sort of energy storage, could really reduce the strain on the grid.

[razr390]

Don’t mean to buy out into the hype craze but I know a lot more people looking to leaving CA than going to it. What happens when the already huge taxpayer base gets decreased?

[max225]

Don’t mean to buy out into the hype craze but I know a lot more people looking to leaving CA than going to it. What happens when the already huge taxpayer base gets decreased?

Normal rent ?

[troyguitar]

Don’t mean to buy out into the hype craze but I know a lot more people looking to leaving CA than going to it. What happens when the already huge taxpayer base gets decreased?

Nobody is leaving except to reduce costs, but they're being replaced by people with even more money... so the tax base isn't shrinking.

[razr390]

Don’t mean to buy out into the hype craze but I know a lot more people looking to leaving CA than going to it. What happens when the already huge taxpayer base gets decreased?

Normal rent ?

So in your careful planning of finances and life decisions you are not worried at all that you guys leaped into a mortgage during a pandemic in a state where you see wildfire smoke off your balcony? Pandemic meaning those who have the means to move elsewhere or those who cannot afford living in your area will move elsewhere (within the state or out of state) since WFH is going to be a tenant and die in that state last.

man I listen to a few podcasts and most of the ones based in California talk to guests of all backgrounds who are pretty much on the same boat

[Huckleberry]

This is already a problem since people expect commercial buildings to just hand over their electrical outlets to them to charge their EVs. I had to deal with one asshole who thought it was his right to charge his vehicle at work, and he would pull into the loading dock, block a delivery space, and string an extension cord over walkways to do it. When he was told to knock it off, he started crying a song about how he has nowhere to charge his car because we won't let him do it at work and his apartment complex won't let him do it there, either. I'm told him tough titty. He tried to be slick and come in on the weekends and charge his vehicle. That's when HR stepped in and told him he could find a different charging location or find a new place of employment that offers charging. He ultimately chose the latter.

I have no problem with EVs. I do have a problem with this expectation that every business under the sun should be supplying ways to recharge them.

Both business and residential rental. If you're going to ban ICE cars, the demand for charging is going to increase. So business owners will be forced to invest in charging to attract talent or why? Rental companies will be forced to install charging to keep places rented, which is just going to drive up the cost of rents. Everyone loses here.

In other countries that "ban" ICE cars, they do so along with an investment in renewable energy and infrastructure to support it. That's the right way to do it IMO. Forcing it on people to bear the brunt of the cost is just shitty, especially when people aren't demanding EVs to begin with. This country is still too addicted to the oil industry to cut it, so we're just going to keep going with these half measures that really screw over general consumers more than anyone else.

I had a conversation with a Tesla owner who was demanding charging stations be installed. His rationale is that he sees 6 or 7 Teslas in the parking lot now and they have nowhere to charge. I asked him why he bought a vehicle with not enough range to cover his commute, to which he said his car has enough range, and to which I said, "Then the station is not needed." His response to that was, "It is the socially responsible thing to do." That is when I told him that the building has a population of 600 people, so he is essentially asking me to spend tens of thousands of dollars to install charging stations to cater to 1% of the building's population, and furthermore, since electricity is still mostly produced using fossil fuels, it is not so much being "socially responsible" as it is simply passing the buck so that his fuel costs are zero. He also didn't see the equivalency in his wanting a charging station and my wanting a fuel card that is equal to the cost of the charging station installation plus the monthly costs of the station's usage. In his mind, that was being absurd.

I don't think many people grasp the actual scale of the conversion. Whenever I bring up the increased electrical demand and people don't understand, I just tell them to look at every vehicle on the road during one of their commutes, and now imagine every one of those vehicles plugged in and drawing power at night. It isn't a big deal now because the EV percentage is very low, but it won't be long before electrical grids will start looking like this: