Car Talk 4: The Richard Hertz Rent-A-Car 500

[troyguitar]

Ballz. I went to another autox today at the one decent site around here and learned that the stability control in the MKZ simply makes the car unable to work properly for this shit. It actually handles well and has great potential but the computer pulls so much power so often that it's useless.

Still finished 22/72 with all of that going on, plus luck ensuring that I was in the half of the group who had to run in more rain than the others because of course I get fucked every time. It's June and I froze my ass off this afternoon.

Fuck this shit.

[Johnny_P]

Ballz. I went to another autox today at the one decent site around here and learned that the stability control in the MKZ simply makes the car unable to work properly for this shit. It actually handles well and has great potential but the computer pulls so much power so often that it's useless.

Still finished 22/72 with all of that going on, plus luck ensuring that I was in the half of the group who had to run in more rain than the others because of course I get fucked every time. It's June and I froze my ass off this afternoon.

Fuck this shit.

What happens if you pull an ABS wheel sensor? TC should turn off no?

[CaleDeRoo]

Ballz. I went to another autox today at the one decent site around here and learned that the stability control in the MKZ simply makes the car unable to work properly for this shit. It actually handles well and has great potential but the computer pulls so much power so often that it's useless.

Still finished 22/72 with all of that going on, plus luck ensuring that I was in the half of the group who had to run in more rain than the others because of course I get fucked every time. It's June and I froze my ass off this afternoon.

Fuck this shit.

High of 56 tomorrow

[troyguitar]

Ballz. I went to another autox today at the one decent site around here and learned that the stability control in the MKZ simply makes the car unable to work properly for this shit. It actually handles well and has great potential but the computer pulls so much power so often that it's useless.

Still finished 22/72 with all of that going on, plus luck ensuring that I was in the half of the group who had to run in more rain than the others because of course I get fucked every time. It's June and I froze my ass off this afternoon.

Fuck this shit.

High of 56 tomorrow

Yep. Lows in the 30s.

I had the heated seats cranked trying to thaw out at bloody 3PM today. Why does anyone live up here?

[CaleDeRoo]

High of 56 tomorrow

Yep. Lows in the 30s.

I had the heated seats cranked trying to thaw out at bloody 3PM today. Why does anyone live up here?

To be fair this is the worst I can every remember the weather being this late into spring, but I agree. Next summer I'm hoping to have a down payment for a house in Raleigh.

[D Griff]

Yep. Lows in the 30s.

I had the heated seats cranked trying to thaw out at bloody 3PM today. Why does anyone live up here?

To be fair this is the worst I can every remember the weather being this late into spring, but I agree. Next summer I'm hoping to have a down payment for a house in Raleigh.

North Carolina

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The release of the CT4-V details had me check out ATS-V prices... I think I might get an ATS-V at the next time.

They are already down in the mid-high 30s for good examples. Near 500 hp V6TT, 8AT, computerized diff and shocks, recarbros, HUD, etc. They also look pretty good IMO. I bet they'll be out there for $30k flat next year.

Yea, but have you even seen the gayges? Deal breaker breh.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

High of 56 tomorrow

Yep. Lows in the 30s.

I had the heated seats cranked trying to thaw out at bloody 3PM today. Why does anyone live up here?

We were camping in the woods on the west side of Michigan and it was in the low 70's. I was in shorts and a t-shirt all weekend.

I'm that NY is worse than MI, but that certainly seems to be the case.

[troyguitar]

The release of the CT4-V details had me check out ATS-V prices... I think I might get an ATS-V at the next time.

They are already down in the mid-high 30s for good examples. Near 500 hp V6TT, 8AT, computerized diff and shocks, recarbros, HUD, etc. They also look pretty good IMO. I bet they'll be out there for $30k flat next year.

Yea, but have you even seen the gayges? Deal breaker breh.

I actually hate the touch "buttons" on the center console more than the gayges.

It occurs to me that even a regular ATS V6 could be good if I could find one optioned properly, 300some hp and 200+ lbs lighter than the V. They seem harder to find than a good V though - all I'd be looking for on a V is recarbros and not black. The regular car you're looking for RWD, sport seats, LSD, and not black.

[Johnny_P]

Yea, but have you even seen the gayges? Deal breaker breh.

I actually hate the touch "buttons" on the center console more than the gayges.

It occurs to me that even a regular ATS V6 could be good if I could find one optioned properly, 300some hp and 200+ lbs lighter than the V. They seem harder to find than a good V though - all I'd be looking for on a V is recarbros and not black. The regular car you're looking for RWD, sport seats, LSD, and not black.

Was the V6 offered with LSD? I thought that was turbo 4 only?

[troyguitar]

I actually hate the touch "buttons" on the center console more than the gayges.

It occurs to me that even a regular ATS V6 could be good if I could find one optioned properly, 300some hp and 200+ lbs lighter than the V. They seem harder to find than a good V though - all I'd be looking for on a V is recarbros and not black. The regular car you're looking for RWD, sport seats, LSD, and not black.

Was the V6 offered with LSD? I thought that was turbo 4 only?

Yeah. The 2.0T-exclusive option was but everything else was available on the 6.

That'll be another thing to check though - I don't know if the old 6AT rev-matches downshifts or holds gears on the rev limiter when in "manual" mode. My car does the latter but not the former, so it lurches annoyingly on downshifts. The old IS350 does the same.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Was the V6 offered with LSD? I thought that was turbo 4 only?

Yeah. The 2.0T-exclusive option was but everything else was available on the 6.

That'll be another thing to check though - I don't know if the old 6AT rev-matches downshifts or holds gears on the rev limiter when in "manual" mode. My car does the latter but not the former, so it lurches annoyingly on downshifts. The old IS350 does the same.

I wouldn't consider a car with a 6-speed...it's just not a great trans. The later 8-speed cars are the way to go.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Yea, but have you even seen the gayges? Deal breaker breh.

I actually hate the touch "buttons" on the center console more than the gayges.

It occurs to me that even a regular ATS V6 could be good if I could find one optioned properly, 300some hp and 200+ lbs lighter than the V. They seem harder to find than a good V though - all I'd be looking for on a V is recarbros and not black. The regular car you're looking for RWD, sport seats, LSD, and not black.

Yea, the touch stuff blows...but it's not bad to get used to.

V's get some serious hardware...and with the way they're depreciating, I think it's worth the price premium over a regular V6 car. The Recaros are AWESOME too, I'm not sure those were ever offered in non-V's.

[troyguitar]

I actually hate the touch "buttons" on the center console more than the gayges.

It occurs to me that even a regular ATS V6 could be good if I could find one optioned properly, 300some hp and 200+ lbs lighter than the V. They seem harder to find than a good V though - all I'd be looking for on a V is recarbros and not black. The regular car you're looking for RWD, sport seats, LSD, and not black.

Yea, the touch stuff blows...but it's not bad to get used to.

V's get some serious hardware...and with the way they're depreciating, I think it's worth the price premium over a regular V6 car. The Recaros are AWESOME too, I'm not sure those were ever offered in non-V's.

If it's more or less the same 6AT that was used on C6 vettes, it's just way too damn slow to respond. The non-V cars are fucking cheap and run on 87 and you can get a non-black interior. Might be worth it at half the price, they can run non-staggered 17" too which I already own. I'd need to figure out which trims have which options to make sure the LSD is on there, but IIRC if it has the fixed calipers then it has the LSD.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

vs

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Yea, the touch stuff blows...but it's not bad to get used to.

V's get some serious hardware...and with the way they're depreciating, I think it's worth the price premium over a regular V6 car. The Recaros are AWESOME too, I'm not sure those were ever offered in non-V's.

If it's more or less the same 6AT that was used on C6 vettes, it's just way too damn slow to respond. The non-V cars are fucking cheap and run on 87 and you can get a non-black interior. Might be worth it at half the price, they can run non-staggered 17" too which I already own. I'd need to figure out which trims have which options to make sure the LSD is on there, but IIRC if it has the fixed calipers then it has the LSD.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

vs

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

Yea, it's essentially the same 6 speed that was in the C6, and pretty much every other 6 speed auto offered at GM. It's not great...but they are cheap AF.

Brembros were offered on a lot of the lineup (and they're EPIC IMO), but I don't think they were tied to the LSD necessarily. I think it needs to be a "performance" trim or something like this one listed here.

[troyguitar]

Looks like on automatics the LSD is only on the highest trim, which is kind of and probably part of why the stupid cars didn't sell when new. Want the performance bits? You have to pay for every single luxury option too!

Still, thanks to the magic of depreciation a top trim car and a bottom trim rental spec now cost about the same used vs being $20k apart new... The 16+ cars with the 8-speed read essentially like they're a modern E46 M3. 335 hp NA V6, 3500 lbs, 109" wheelbase, 71" wide, adjustable seat bolsters, brembros, heated seats+wheel, android auto, HUD, etc. and 30 mpg highway on 87 vs 24 on premium for the V. That's a huge difference in running costs.

I guess I need to find some to test drive, the seats are the big question mark for me.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Looks like on automatics the LSD is only on the highest trim, which is kind of and probably part of why the stupid cars didn't sell when new. Want the performance bits? You have to pay for every single luxury option too!

Still, thanks to the magic of depreciation a top trim car and a bottom trim rental spec now cost about the same used vs being $20k apart new... The 16+ cars with the 8-speed read essentially like they're a modern E46 M3. 335 hp NA V6, 3500 lbs, 109" wheelbase, 71" wide, adjustable seat bolsters, brembros, heated seats+wheel, android auto, HUD, etc. and 30 mpg highway on 87 vs 24 on premium for the V. That's a huge difference in running costs.

I guess I need to find some to test drive, the seats are the big question mark for me.

That's right...I remember that now. Why they need to be fully loaded to get the performance stuff is , but a good example of how clueless a lot of people are at GM.

Seats are fine...you'll find them inadequate. Still, I wonder if Recaros could be swapped over without much hassle. Could probably find take-out seats for not a fortune.

[Apex]

Looks like on automatics the LSD is only on the highest trim, which is kind of and probably part of why the stupid cars didn't sell when new. Want the performance bits? You have to pay for every single luxury option too!

Still, thanks to the magic of depreciation a top trim car and a bottom trim rental spec now cost about the same used vs being $20k apart new... The 16+ cars with the 8-speed read essentially like they're a modern E46 M3. 335 hp NA V6, 3500 lbs, 109" wheelbase, 71" wide, adjustable seat bolsters, brembros, heated seats+wheel, android auto, HUD, etc. and 30 mpg highway on 87 vs 24 on premium for the V. That's a huge difference in running costs.

I guess I need to find some to test drive, the seats are the big question mark for me.

I'd be interested to see what you think of the ATS in both V and non-V spec if you do get to drive them.
I rarely see them out on the roads, and that ATS-V you linked earlier looks IMO.

[troyguitar]

Looks like on automatics the LSD is only on the highest trim, which is kind of and probably part of why the stupid cars didn't sell when new. Want the performance bits? You have to pay for every single luxury option too!

Still, thanks to the magic of depreciation a top trim car and a bottom trim rental spec now cost about the same used vs being $20k apart new... The 16+ cars with the 8-speed read essentially like they're a modern E46 M3. 335 hp NA V6, 3500 lbs, 109" wheelbase, 71" wide, adjustable seat bolsters, brembros, heated seats+wheel, android auto, HUD, etc. and 30 mpg highway on 87 vs 24 on premium for the V. That's a huge difference in running costs.

I guess I need to find some to test drive, the seats are the big question mark for me.

That's right...I remember that now. Why they need to be fully loaded to get the performance stuff is , but a good example of how clueless a lot of people are at GM.

Seats are fine...you'll find them inadequate. Still, I wonder if Recaros could be swapped over without much hassle. Could probably find take-out seats for not a fortune.

Yeah, obviously the V is the answer for "only" $10k more - or really a C7 Z51 w/ the heated+cooled comp seats for another $10k more.

[troyguitar]

Looks like on automatics the LSD is only on the highest trim, which is kind of and probably part of why the stupid cars didn't sell when new. Want the performance bits? You have to pay for every single luxury option too!

Still, thanks to the magic of depreciation a top trim car and a bottom trim rental spec now cost about the same used vs being $20k apart new... The 16+ cars with the 8-speed read essentially like they're a modern E46 M3. 335 hp NA V6, 3500 lbs, 109" wheelbase, 71" wide, adjustable seat bolsters, brembros, heated seats+wheel, android auto, HUD, etc. and 30 mpg highway on 87 vs 24 on premium for the V. That's a huge difference in running costs.

I guess I need to find some to test drive, the seats are the big question mark for me.

I'd be interested to see what you think of the ATS in both V and non-V spec if you do get to drive them.
I rarely see them out on the roads, and that ATS-V you linked earlier looks IMO.

If the V had the LT1 instead of the V6+turbros - which makes the exact same power and likely weighs the same and costs GM less and is already used in that platform on the Camero, but for some reason they refuse to use it in the ATS - then I'd have been saving for one for the past 4 years. I'm having a hard time getting excited about the Diesel-like power curve on every turbo car out there. So much

The Camero SS 1LE with the LT1 has fatter stickier tires and worse aero yet it is better on gas than the ATS-V with its fancy turbros... there is zero benefit to the V6TT over the V8.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I'd be interested to see what you think of the ATS in both V and non-V spec if you do get to drive them.
I rarely see them out on the roads, and that ATS-V you linked earlier looks IMO.

If the V had the LT1 instead of the V6+turbros - which makes the exact same power and likely weighs the same and costs GM less and is already used in that platform on the Camero, but for some reason they refuse to use it in the ATS - then I'd have been saving for one for the past 4 years. I'm having a hard time getting excited about the Diesel-like power curve on every turbo car out there. So much

The Camero SS 1LE with the LT1 has fatter stickier tires and worse aero yet it is better on gas than the ATS-V with its fancy turbros... there is zero benefit to the V6TT over the V8.

If the ATS-V had the LT1, I would have owned one by now. They probably would have sold better too.

[Apex]

If the V had the LT1 instead of the V6+turbros - which makes the exact same power and likely weighs the same and costs GM less and is already used in that platform on the Camero, but for some reason they refuse to use it in the ATS - then I'd have been saving for one for the past 4 years. I'm having a hard time getting excited about the Diesel-like power curve on every turbo car out there. So much

The Camero SS 1LE with the LT1 has fatter stickier tires and worse aero yet it is better on gas than the ATS-V with its fancy turbros... there is zero benefit to the V6TT over the V8.

If the ATS-V had the LT1, I would have threesomed by now. They probably would have sold better too.

Nothing quite like a good brub.

[troyguitar]

Found deetz for 2017, but still need to figure out how that differs from 2016.

https://media.gm.com/content/media/us/e ... ac-ATS.pdf

Bottom line is for 2017 you need the "Premium Performance" trim to get the LSD - and that also is tied to the quicker steering rack and MRC, so MRC == LSD. Annoyingly it also comes with staggered wheels plus every other option.

Best I can tell, 2016 is similar except that while any "Premium" RWD V6 will have MRC and the LSD and quicker rack and most gadgets - the sunroof was technically a standalone option so it's possible to get a 2016 w/ LSD and no sunroof. Good luck finding one

With all those restrictions, there are only two examples presently for sale on cars.com under $30k nationally. Looks like one of them might not have the sunroof, but you're still awful close to the price of a V at that point.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

Full Camry spec beige on beige w/ sunroof is the other one, cheaper but that's a lot of on the color front...

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

It's also not clear whether Android auto works on the 2016 cars. fixed it for 2017.

[D Griff]

Can confirm, V8s are moar better.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Found deetz for 2017, but still need to figure out how that differs from 2016.

https://media.gm.com/content/media/us/e ... ac-ATS.pdf

Bottom line is for 2017 you need the "Premium Performance" trim to get the LSD - and that also is tied to the quicker steering rack and MRC, so MRC == LSD. Annoyingly it also comes with staggered wheels plus every other option.

Best I can tell, 2016 is similar except that while any "Premium" RWD V6 will have MRC and the LSD and quicker rack and most gadgets - the sunroof was technically a standalone option so it's possible to get a 2016 w/ LSD and no sunroof. Good luck finding one

With all those restrictions, there are only two examples presently for sale on cars.com under $30k nationally. Looks like one of them might not have the sunroof, but you're still awful close to the price of a V at that point.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

Full Camry spec beige on beige w/ sunroof is the other one, cheaper but that's a lot of on the color front...

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/deta ... /overview/

It's also not clear whether Android auto works on the 2016 cars. fixed it for 2017.

Wow, that beige on beige is horrible. Would be to see you spanking people at auto-x in that thing

2016 was the first year for Android Auto in GM products. MOST vehicles got it that year. My 2016 Silverado had it.