DFD

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 2:39 pm

Desertbreh wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 1:51 pm

If you're going to be brand loyal, that's a better way to go than say, Jaguar or Range Rover

A first owner for a Range Rover doesn't usually own it out of warranty so it's not like the give a fk about any repairs unless their newish car starts leaving them stranded next to the Chanel store on Rodeo drive.

More of a depreciation comment than a reliability one, but sure, rich people give no fucks about this and a lot more.

Desertbreh wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 2:47 pm

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 2:39 pm

A first owner for a Range Rover doesn't usually own it out of warranty so it's not like the give a fk about any repairs unless their newish car starts leaving them stranded next to the Chanel store on Rodeo drive.

More of a depreciation comment than a reliability one, but sure, rich people give no fucks about this and a lot more.

I would think that the average household income of a RR owner is well into the 7 figures, so the fact that it loses "60k" in 4 years is chump change, when the country club charges that monthly.

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 3:31 pm

Desertbreh wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 2:47 pm

More of a depreciation comment than a reliability one, but sure, rich people give no fucks about this and a lot more.

I would think that the average household income of a RR owner is well into the 7 figures, so the fact that it loses "60k" in 4 years is chump change, when the country club charges that monthly.

Ok Max, I should never have posted in the first place.

Desertbreh wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 3:35 pm

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 3:31 pm

I would think that the average household income of a RR owner is well into the 7 figures, so the fact that it loses "60k" in 4 years is chump change, when the country club charges that monthly.

Ok Max, I should never have posted in the first place.

Keep posting, you've been slacking lately.

[user not found] wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:12 pm

No more hood flutter. Ever.

Go on.

He didn't buy a JL it is just what looks to be a JL latch on a JK. But it took me a double take also.

Which latch? That’s one small thing I’ve wanted to do.

[user not found] wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:12 pm

No more hood flutter. Ever.

Any reason why you didn't get locking ones?

Yo @Detroit,

What's the internal word on the JL? Is it performing to expectations or above/below ?

Curious. I don't think that's any sort of insider info at all.

but imagine if someone wanted to steal your oil cap.. or the whole engine

[user not found] wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:31 pm

Apex wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:27 pm



Any reason why you didn't get locking ones?

Because they’re annoying and ugly.

I’d sooner do the hood lock than locking latches.

Fair enough.

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:33 pm but imagine if someone wanted to steal your oil cap.. or the whole engine

I'd be more concerned about the battery going missing...



Like if someone took a week long trip to TN.

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:29 pm Yo @Detroit,

What's the internal word on the JL? Is it performing to expectations or above/below ?

Curious. I don't think that's any sort of insider info at all.

Good question. I don't have much contact with sales anymore, so it's hard to say. I'm in product planning, spending more time on new feature/vehicle development. Which, your concerns about wind noise have not gone unnoticed, especially recently. We've been tasked with further improving daily livability.

You might want to wait a few years if it's a serious concern.

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 pm

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 4:29 pm Yo @Detroit,

What's the internal word on the JL? Is it performing to expectations or above/below ?

Curious. I don't think that's any sort of insider info at all.

Good question. I don't have much contact with sales anymore, so it's hard to say. I'm in product planning, spending more time on new feature/vehicle development. Which, your concerns about wind noise have not gone unnoticed, especially recently. We've been tasked with further improving daily livability.

You might want to wait a few years if it's a serious concern.

Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:21 pm

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 pm
Good question. I don't have much contact with sales anymore, so it's hard to say. I'm in product planning, spending more time on new feature/vehicle development. Which, your concerns about wind noise have not gone unnoticed, especially recently. We've been tasked with further improving daily livability.

You might want to wait a few years if it's a serious concern.

Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 pm

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:21 pm

Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

Interesting point on the power top... the fucking 4k upcharge is just frankly robbery, but I am actually really interested in that top/removable side windows, which are

The tossing around is due to side winds not solid axle. This thing drives straight as an arrow on most shitty roads etc. I have 0 qualms about ride quality in the jeep, as well as steering in normal situations.

All my qualms are around wind/windnoise and having not driven the rubicon yet, likely MPG on that model.

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:34 pm

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 pm
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

Interesting point on the power top... the fucking 4k upcharge is just frankly robbery, but I am actually really interested in that top/removable side windows, which are

The tossing around is due to side winds not solid axle. This thing drives straight as an arrow on most shitty roads etc. I have 0 qualms about ride quality in the jeep, as well as steering in normal situations.

All my qualms are around wind/windnoise and having not driven the rubicon yet, likely MPG on that model.

My local dealer has a Sahara Manuel with 6spd and that top. Heavily discounted from what I remember. I think it had the 8.4 uconnect and LEDs too.

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 pm

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:21 pm

Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.

max225 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:34 pm

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 pm
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

Interesting point on the power top... the fucking 4k upcharge is just frankly robbery, but I am actually really interested in that top/removable side windows, which are

The tossing around is due to side winds not solid axle. This thing drives straight as an arrow on most shitty roads etc. I have 0 qualms about ride quality in the jeep, as well as steering in normal situations.

All my qualms are around wind/windnoise and having not driven the rubicon yet, likely MPG on that model.

The aero is part of the issue, but the steering makes it worse. Recirculating ball steering just isn't precise, especially when compared to rack and pinion. Its why you have to make constant adjustments when driving down the highway, and it's worse in wind. I'm not talking out my ass, this is directly from engineering.

I wouldn't suggest replacing solid axles in all Wranglers, but it could make sense in upper trim level vehicles that are bought by people that want the look and experience, but wont see much off-road. It'd still be very capable off-road, so you're not giving up much, really. Those are the people complaining about the drive anyway. It would be perfect for Max for example.

The power top is epic. I experienced it recently, and couldn't believe how great it is. It's the final solution, but it costs way too much. That could be fixed with design and scale, which I'm going to push hard for.

[user not found] wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 9:36 am

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 pm
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

Leave the solid axle alone.

Also, it's due more to the slab-sided design. It's a big sail driving down the highway.

Hummer H3, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner (kind of) are all slab sided sails that didn't experience the same drivability issue. IFS has a huge role in it. There's a place for it in the lineup IMO.

Apex wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 am

Detroit wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 pm
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.

You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.

Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.

Detroit wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:16 am

Apex wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 am

You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.

Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.

Yep. IFS can be incredibly capable too, it has an ancient stigma that it is "worse". When in reality it's just more expensive to deal with.

[user not found] wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:20 am

Detroit wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:16 am
Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.

Sounds like it's something that could underpin the next Dogekota.

No idea. Jeep and Ram planning are completely separate. Which is good and bad.

Apex wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:23 am

Detroit wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:16 am
Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.

Yep. IFS can be incredibly capable too, it has an ancient stigma that it is "worse". When in reality it's just more expensive to deal with.

It's super capable. Wrangler is the last solid axle passenger vehicle in existence. Other vehicles are pretty danged capable but have far better highway manners. Yes, more expensive to deal with potentially, but for a large portion of buyers, that doesn't really matter.