OT 12: OT gonna OT gonna OT
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:36 pm
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[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:06 pmReport closed.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:21 pm
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What debate? The[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:37 pmhttps://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... s-suicide/
FWIW as a gun owner I find this head in the sand attitude about them the most harmful thing we can do to both sides of the debate.
i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:37 pmhttps://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... s-suicide/
FWIW as a gun owner I find this head in the sand attitude about them the most harmful thing we can do to both sides of the debate.
troyguitar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:40 pmWhat debate? The[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:37 pm
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... s-suicide/
FWIW as a gun owner I find this head in the sand attitude about them the most harmful thing we can do to both sides of the debate.are against guns in every way. Even you are more likely to get fucking shot by having them.
All your side does is display pure willful ignorance, combined with pouring a SHIT LOAD ofmoney at misdirection and lobbying to keep yourselves in power.
I think they should licence them like cars. you need some min level of competency to own & operate.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:46 pmFor me the debate is this:troyguitar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:40 pm
What debate? Theare against guns in every way. Even you are more likely to get fucking shot by having them.
All your side does is display pure willful ignorance, combined with pouring a SHIT LOAD ofmoney at misdirection and lobbying to keep yourselves in power.
Full TRUE non-spun facts on the table and everyone that takes their side needs to do so any accept the moral responsibility with that side.
I own several firearms that probably should be illegal. I'd be fine with that.
I am ok with people saying "my gun rights above all costs including all the needless lives lost." I disagree with that but that's their right.
Let's have THAT discussion and see where people really land.
but crimes with guns is really the thing I care about. When we solve that we can dig into suicide.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:36 pmA conversation about gun deaths is not necessarily a conversation about crime.
sure, thats a real number and its a sad one, but you have to start from a position that the gov owns your body and therefore you can commit a crime against yourself.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:51 pmBut it is a violent crime :dunno:Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:42 pm
i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.
It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.
About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.
Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.
So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.
Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).
That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.
theres a ton of what ifs. How many people jump off a building? Thats a sure death outcome. No guns? Seems like they will just take the next sure path to the end.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:51 pmBut it is a violent crime :dunno:Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:42 pm
i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.
It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.
About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.
Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.
So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.
Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).
That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.
So you agree its not a crime to commit suicide?[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:57 pmSuicide should be legally permissable, the bigger point is that 90% never try again after a failure. Anyone in the mental health profession will tell you because most people that commit suicide don't want to be dead after. Therefore using something as final as a gun means it has to be brought into the conversation.Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:54 pm
sure, thats a real number and its a sad one, but you have to start from a position that the gov owns your body and therefore you can commit a crime against yourself.
I do not hold that position, IE you should be able to do what you want with your body as long as it does not effect others directly.
[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:51 pmBut it is a violent crime :dunno:Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:42 pm
i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.
It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.
About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.
Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.
So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.
Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).
That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.
but they can take the cry for help option. Pills.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:57 pmSuicide should be legally permissable, the bigger point is that 90% never try again after a failure. Anyone in the mental health profession will tell you because most people that attempt to commit suicide and survive don't want to be dead after. Therefore using something as final as a gun means it has to be brought into the conversation.Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:54 pm
sure, thats a real number and its a sad one, but you have to start from a position that the gov owns your body and therefore you can commit a crime against yourself.
I do not hold that position, IE you should be able to do what you want with your body as long as it does not effect others directly.
I can outrun any fat fuck who owns a[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:00 pmWell you shouldn't confront them regardless of a gun. You're not a big dude. Fists could fuck ya.troyguitar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:59 pm
I don't think that people who want to die being dead is a bad thing. Similarly, people who die in car crashes without seat belts or on motorcycles without helmets shouldn't be considered to be indicative of problems with cars or bikes.
I do think it's a bad thing that I have to worry about being shot by adriver if I confront them for being a fucking jackass.
welp, I don't. If someone wants to clock out, yes do it.[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:00 pmOf course! I also think that those deaths are attributable to guns so must be included in the debate.
What possible reasoning could you have to argue that we should all have unrestricted access to handguns?[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:03 pmBecause as a society we have a duty to care for the most vulnerable. Mental illness is a vulnerability.dubshow wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:00 pm
but they can take the cry for help option. Pills.
You are lumping all these different reasons into suicide and methods of suicide, which makes your argument invalid.
If you feel people are free to self harm and control their body, then why does the instrument of harm matter??
It's funny, I wouldn't advocate for pistol restrictions for a second (and it's not like anyone is using a sporting rifle for suicide), but you guys get so wrapped around the argument because GUNS! you fail to see the point being made.
You said it yourself, don’t go looking for trouble.troyguitar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:59 pm[user not found] wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:51 pm
But it is a violent crime :dunno:
About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.
Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.
So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.
Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).
That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.
I don't think that people who want to die being dead is a bad thing. Similarly, people who die in car crashes without seat belts or on motorcycles without helmets shouldn't be considered to be indicative of problems with cars or bikes.
I do think it's a bad thing that I have to worry about being shot by adriver if I confront them for being a fucking jackass.