Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[Desertbreh]

Ford continues to offer an affordable Mustang. Why aren't they allowed to offer enthusiasts a model with 760hp and DCT for EIGHTY THOUSAND DOLLARS? The GT500 is badass and would be an absolute riot to own.

THANK YOU

[Huckleberry]

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

I like the Mach 1 more than the 1LE, but it was nearly $10k more than the Bromaro, so I went the route.

I haven't looked at pricing on anything lately because I am not in the market for a vehicle, but a $10k difference is dumb.

[MexicanYarisTK]

Z4 with a manual is a really, really good suggestion IMO. Jimmy Jam wins. Better looking than the Supra and M2. Convertible. Probably the best looking BMW offered currently? Will be really rare in the right spec and will fight off the depreciation demons for a long time.

If only they do the same for the g series m240i, it would've been awesome. I saw a purple one passed me today, just

[MrH42]

Z4 with a manual is a really, really good suggestion IMO. Jimmy Jam wins. Better looking than the Supra and M2. Convertible. Probably the best looking BMW offered currently? Will be really rare in the right spec and will fight off the depreciation demons for a long time.

70k for a B58 in the Z4 or 70k for the S58 in the M2.

Cost to run would be less but it’s not like Max piles on miles before anyway. I think the M2 is the better option.

Good point.

The fact that Max is the only one who likes the styling is a sign he should get one. I also love the silly interior colors they come in. Shame the exterior looks like a knock off tonka truck.

[Desertbreh]

If I was in the market for a Dark Horse I think I would just get a barely used Mach 1 in a cool color scheme. But then I would say, "why am I buying a Mustang?"........and go used GT500 shopping.

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

about the GT350 engine in terms of holding together.

[max225]

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

about the GT350 engine in terms of holding together.

So far I only heard about track abuse related issues. I have no intention of ever tracking a nice expensive personal car. That’s a rich man’s game

[Desertbreh]

about the GT350 engine in terms of holding together.

So far I only heard about track abuse related issues. I have no intention of ever tracking a nice expensive personal car. That’s a rich man’s game

The interwebz seems full of excessive oil consumption issues on that engine.....like a number M engines. Sorry I can't get with the whole "real racing engines burn oil like a 400K mile Mexican Honda" program.

[Huckleberry]

You did, but you didn't. This started because you asked about other cars for consideration, and you immediately dismissed both of my suggestions with "The BMW is better." There is nothing I could say that would change your mind. You're just looking for more points to refute so you can reaffirm your bias.

Based on your points for dismissing the Mustang, you need to eliminate the GR86, Miata, Type R, and Emira from your list because the M2 is faster. You must eliminate the C8 because it is going to suffer from the same interior material complaints and is from a poverty brand. That leaves you with the P cars and the Bimmers, and the P cars have the P car tax with similar performance as the Bimmers.

So, flip your coin and buy an M.

Nah. Those cars are significantly cheaper (hype r and 86). One can’t ignore the fact that the 86 is like 33k it’s simply unheard of nowadays.

With regards to the mustang I think my point was mainly around what I said earlier. I don’t see it as anything that punches above 50k. It needs to be an Everyman muscle car. And it’s completely overpriced for what it is. The car is nearly unchanged from 2014. And I don’t see it playing with an m2 in that price bracket. I liked the prior high revving gt350 at 46k, the original msrp, much less at 61k where it ended. It still made more sense than the new dark horse considering that motor is no where near as special.

Emira is super exotic and mid engine. Those are major selling points.

It's fair if you feel the Dark Horse is overpriced, but the MSRP spread that you are shopping is extreme. So justifying a car's existence on your list of contenders just because it is cheap doesn't really make sense when you are also looking at cars that cost $100,000 more. It makes even less sense to use pricing as a defense for the 86 when a few months ago you were going on about how a 20 year old S2000 made the same power and that was unacceptable in your mind.

I didn't suggest the GT because Ford still puts the glass Getrag in them. The Dark Horse gets the Tremec, as well as underpinnings from the GT350, Mach 1, and GT500. The Tremec is one reason I would only consider a GT350 or Mach 1 for myself, with the preference being the GT350 for the unique engine. If you were going to entertain used cars, I would have thrown out the 350 instead of the Dark Horse.

[Huckleberry]

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

about the GT350 engine in terms of holding together.

I haven't really looked into it beyond oil consumption issues, but even the LS engines have oil consumption issues. If that's all that it is, just check the oil level and top off as needed, and that most likely only pertains to spirited runs.

[max225]

Nah. Those cars are significantly cheaper (hype r and 86). One can’t ignore the fact that the 86 is like 33k it’s simply unheard of nowadays.

With regards to the mustang I think my point was mainly around what I said earlier. I don’t see it as anything that punches above 50k. It needs to be an Everyman muscle car. And it’s completely overpriced for what it is. The car is nearly unchanged from 2014. And I don’t see it playing with an m2 in that price bracket. I liked the prior high revving gt350 at 46k, the original msrp, much less at 61k where it ended. It still made more sense than the new dark horse considering that motor is no where near as special.

Emira is super exotic and mid engine. Those are major selling points.

It's fair if you feel the Dark Horse is overpriced, but the MSRP spread that you are shopping is extreme. So justifying a car's existence on your list of contenders just because it is cheap doesn't really make sense when you are also looking at cars that cost $100,000 more. It makes even less sense to use pricing as a defense for the 86 when a few months ago you were going on about how a 20 year old S2000 made the same power and that was unacceptable in your mind.

I didn't suggest the GT because Ford still puts the glass Getrag in them. The Dark Horse gets the Tremec, as well as underpinnings from the GT350, Mach 1, and GT500. The Tremec is one reason I would only consider a GT350 or Mach 1 for myself, with the preference being the GT350 for the unique engine. If you were going to entertain used cars, I would have thrown out the 350 instead of the Dark Horse.

I added the China tranny moostang I think it actually makes sense and a good call out. I just find the dark horse updates and price premium hard to swallow. They should have been standard on the gt. And the dark horse should have had some sort of cool high revving v8 ala gt350 to justify the price premium

[max225]

So far I only heard about track abuse related issues. I have no intention of ever tracking a nice expensive personal car. That’s a rich man’s game

The interwebz seems full of excessive oil consumption issues on that engine.....like a number M engines. Sorry I can't get with the whole "real racing engines burn oil like a 400K mile Mexican Honda" program.

Oh ? Looks like I need to educate myself on this. Are we taking 1 quart every 5000 miles or 500 miles though

[Desertbreh]

The interwebz seems full of excessive oil consumption issues on that engine.....like a number M engines. Sorry I can't get with the whole "real racing engines burn oil like a 400K mile Mexican Honda" program.

Oh ? Looks like I need to educate myself on this. Are we taking 1 quart every 5000 miles or 500 miles though

https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/ ... n.1161677/

Enjoy

[Melon2.0]

I like the Mach 1 more than the 1LE, but it was nearly $10k more than the Bromaro, so I went the route.

I haven't looked at pricing on anything lately because I am not in the market for a vehicle, but a $10k difference is dumb.

SS 1LE is a genuine bargain considering what you get for the base price of $47k

[max225]

Oh ? Looks like I need to educate myself on this. Are we taking 1 quart every 5000 miles or 500 miles though

https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/ ... n.1161677/

Enjoy

That thread didn’t tell me much. But I’ll keep looking.

[Huckleberry]

It's fair if you feel the Dark Horse is overpriced, but the MSRP spread that you are shopping is extreme. So justifying a car's existence on your list of contenders just because it is cheap doesn't really make sense when you are also looking at cars that cost $100,000 more. It makes even less sense to use pricing as a defense for the 86 when a few months ago you were going on about how a 20 year old S2000 made the same power and that was unacceptable in your mind.

I didn't suggest the GT because Ford still puts the glass Getrag in them. The Dark Horse gets the Tremec, as well as underpinnings from the GT350, Mach 1, and GT500. The Tremec is one reason I would only consider a GT350 or Mach 1 for myself, with the preference being the GT350 for the unique engine. If you were going to entertain used cars, I would have thrown out the 350 instead of the Dark Horse.

I added the China tranny moostang I think it actually makes sense and a good call out. I just find the dark horse updates and price premium hard to swallow. They should have been standard on the gt. And the dark horse should have had some sort of cool high revving v8 ala gt350 to justify the price premium

The thing they added to the Dark Horse was the twin throttle body intake, but I don't know how much that adds since they Y into a shared plenum. Ford does attribute it to getting the 5.0 to 500 HP, though. I'm sure in subsequent years, the GT will get that intake in some sort of final, final, this time we're serious edition.

[max225]

https://www.chevrolet.com/byo-vc/tiny/5Q9AbtZO1Do1

Here is my C8 build..

[D Griff]

I've seen multiple outlets or people say the same. IIRC Lotus is aware and trying to make it better

It seems like a dumb thing to mess up in a Lotus.

The shifter in the Elise I drove sucked. This car was at the Lotus factory too so no excuses. Both Porsches I’ve driven the shifter was meh (both 987s), I just assumed it was a mid engine thing.

I still hardcore covet an Emira and several Porsches and don’t really covet a C8. If I were to Corvette again I think C6Z or C7GS would be my move.

[D Griff]

The C8 should look better than it does. There is some Pontiac Grand Am Plastic genome in that thing. Also I wouldn't own one for a week without tossing the square tipped exhaust and installing BROLA.

Yep the square exhaust has to go. Easy enough fix. And the auto tragic only is also a bit as well as the weird interior layout...

Meanwhile a decent Carrera T that sounds like a blender is $135k which is completely unreasonable IMO. And a GT3 is 210k + several Monaco vacations for the mistress and her pool buy.

So one car is too expensive and the other is just... not that desirable.

I keep coming back to a M2 or a GT86. The GT86 at 33k is just an absolute steal IMO. even with a performance pack with sachs dampers and bremBROs you're still only out 34.7k. I love the M2 styling (shoot me) and the performance seems great... but 4k lbs and almost 70k after tax seems for something that well off high school students drive.

All this is on point IMO, I also think the new M2 is hot.

[D Griff]

You are just a snob now. It's an obnoxious muscle car. Better than a Challenger.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500

I just feel like mustangs have a price point. And that price point is well below 60k.

It’s not a rich man’s car and I hate that ford is trying to take it there. It’s not about being a snob it’s about being annoyed that everyman sports cars are taken to super car pricing.

Just like a 90k brz/frs. The fuck is the point ? They need to be accessible to everyone. Not just the super rich. Call me a communist

I’m actually with you on this. I’m still thinking about that purchasing girl that works for one of my customers. She was on the waitlist to pay markup on a Dark Horse, going over her annual salary to get a Mustang that she’ll lose $20k on in a year. I’ll have to chat with her soon and see if she got it.

I think it’s dumb. I liked the Mustang I rented recently. A huge upgrade from the previous one in quality/interior (the windows actually close!!), but Ford is still the worst quality in the industry and a Mustang just isn’t a $70+k car in that form. Sure GT500 is a super car in a mullet and Scott Bloomquist tee shirt and that’s worth it. Dark Horse is a 2014 GT with brakes and coilovers.

GT350 with bespoke 8500 RPM engine and incredible sounds for $50k? Yes. Dark Horse? No.

It’s cool but just feels greedy, especially with markup.

[MexicanYarisTK]

I just feel like mustangs have a price point. And that price point is well below 60k.

It’s not a rich man’s car and I hate that ford is trying to take it there. It’s not about being a snob it’s about being annoyed that everyman sports cars are taken to super car pricing.

Just like a 90k brz/frs. The fuck is the point ? They need to be accessible to everyone. Not just the super rich. Call me a communist

I’m actually with you on this. I’m still thinking about that purchasing girl that works for one of my customers. She was on the waitlist to pay markup on a Dark Horse, going over her annual salary to get a Mustang that she’ll lose $20k on in a year. I’ll have to chat with her soon and see if she got it.

I think it’s dumb. I liked the Mustang I rented recently. A huge upgrade from the previous one in quality/interior (the windows actually close!!), but Ford is still the worst quality in the industry and a Mustang just isn’t a $70+k car in that form. Sure GT500 is a super car in a mullet and Scott Bloomquist tee shirt and that’s worth it. Dark Horse is a 2014 GT with brakes and coilovers.

GT350 with bespoke 8500 RPM engine and incredible sounds for $50k? Yes. Dark Horse? No.

It’s cool but just feels greedy, especially with markup.

That would just kill me on the inside.

[max225]

I just feel like mustangs have a price point. And that price point is well below 60k.

It’s not a rich man’s car and I hate that ford is trying to take it there. It’s not about being a snob it’s about being annoyed that everyman sports cars are taken to super car pricing.

Just like a 90k brz/frs. The fuck is the point ? They need to be accessible to everyone. Not just the super rich. Call me a communist

I’m actually with you on this. I’m still thinking about that purchasing girl that works for one of my customers. She was on the waitlist to pay markup on a Dark Horse, going over her annual salary to get a Mustang that she’ll lose $20k on in a year. I’ll have to chat with her soon and see if she got it.

I think it’s dumb. I liked the Mustang I rented recently. A huge upgrade from the previous one in quality/interior (the windows actually close!!), but Ford is still the worst quality in the industry and a Mustang just isn’t a $70+k car in that form. Sure GT500 is a super car in a mullet and Scott Bloomquist tee shirt and that’s worth it. Dark Horse is a 2014 GT with brakes and coilovers.

GT350 with bespoke 8500 RPM engine and incredible sounds for $50k? Yes. Dark Horse? No.

It’s cool but just feels greedy, especially with markup.

[dubshow]

It's fair if you feel the Dark Horse is overpriced, but the MSRP spread that you are shopping is extreme. So justifying a car's existence on your list of contenders just because it is cheap doesn't really make sense when you are also looking at cars that cost $100,000 more. It makes even less sense to use pricing as a defense for the 86 when a few months ago you were going on about how a 20 year old S2000 made the same power and that was unacceptable in your mind.

I didn't suggest the GT because Ford still puts the glass Getrag in them. The Dark Horse gets the Tremec, as well as underpinnings from the GT350, Mach 1, and GT500. The Tremec is one reason I would only consider a GT350 or Mach 1 for myself, with the preference being the GT350 for the unique engine. If you were going to entertain used cars, I would have thrown out the 350 instead of the Dark Horse.

I added the China tranny moostang I think it actually makes sense and a good call out. I just find the dark horse updates and price premium hard to swallow. They should have been standard on the gt. And the dark horse should have had some sort of cool high revving v8 ala gt350 to justify the price premium

it has some trick parts, double throttle bodies etc. but yeah, id agree. Hard to stomach a mustang at that price.

[golftdibrad1]

this was good.

[Desertbreh]

So I have floated the idea of a C7Z from time to time. Why? 650/650/TR6070, finally decent seats, acceptable reliability, apparently the best manual Corvette that is going to be made.

Man..........it is ROUGH out there. On an Autotrader nationwide search, there are 52 examples of a C7Z Manual Coupe available from 2016-2019. Almost all of them are Torch Red, White, Black or Yellow. All of those are deal killer colors. They also almost all have black ramz, which I think look terrible on this car. Here is my favorite..

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sal ... pe=listing

$99K. "Never Revved over 3000 RPM" Got those horsepower numbers on the hood bro.

This is really only one car out of the 52 that stands out as desirable to me...

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sal ... pe=listing

It may be time to move on to the C8.

Edit: I missed the Vietnam Veteran floormats on the yellow one^^^^^^

[Desertbreh]

Recent C8Z sighting. Pretty hot.