Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[max225]

I think the point of "underpowered" is more of a function that a 2.4 N/A engine with roughly 228hp isn't exactly fast. This thing has LESS power as a 24 year old Honda S2000 which stood at 240... technology has moved on and this particular car has remained pretty low HP compared to any other performance vehicle.

Yes it has plenty of other great attributes, like handling a very reasonable price and great styling. But IMO this is the source of the criticism.

[Huckleberry]

I think the point of "underpowered" is more of a function that a 2.4 N/A engine with roughly 228hp isn't exactly fast. This thing has LESS power as a 24 year old Honda S2000 which stood at 240... technology has moved on and this particular car has remained pretty low HP compared to any other performance vehicle.

Yes it has plenty of other great attributes, like handling a very reasonable price and great styling. But IMO this is the source of the criticism.

It still makes more torque than the S2000, and peak numbers don't tell the entire story because engines operate on a power curve.

S2000:


GR86:


The S2000 has to wind out to 9k to make what the GR86 makes at 6500.

[max225]

How about the AP2? Either way IMO it's somewhat splitting hairs... They are very similar in performance right? Wind out or not.

If the BRZ had 260-300hp I don't think it would get that much heat and it is certainly not "too much" power.

[golftdibrad1]

I think the point of "underpowered" is more of a function that a 2.4 N/A engine with roughly 228hp isn't exactly fast. This thing has LESS power as a 24 year old Honda S2000 which stood at 240... technology has moved on and this particular car has remained pretty low HP compared to any other performance vehicle.

Yes it has plenty of other great attributes, like handling a very reasonable price and great styling. But IMO this is the source of the criticism.

It still makes more torque than the S2000, and peak numbers don't tell the entire story because engines operate on a power curve.

S2000:


GR86:


The S2000 has to wind out to 9k to make what the GR86 makes at 6500.

and it makes more torque everywhere.

[CaleDeRoo]

Fortunately we have someone who sold their S2000 for a BRZ to compare seat of the pants feel.

[max225]

Fortunately we have someone who sold their S2000 for a BRZ to compare seat of the pants feel.

For sure ! But also 20 years old vs new. New just feels so

[CaleDeRoo]

Fortunately we have someone who sold their S2000 for a BRZ to compare seat of the pants feel.

For sure ! But also 20 years old vs new. New just feels so

And the new BRZ has basically the same MSRP the S2000 did when it was released.

[max225]

For sure ! But also 20 years old vs new. New just feels so

And the new BRZ has basically the same MSRP the S2000 did when it was released.

Yea … it’s a bit cheaper for sure

[Huckleberry]

How about the AP2? Either way IMO it's somewhat splitting hairs... They are very similar in performance right? Wind out or not.

If the BRZ had 260-300hp I don't think it would get that much heat and it is certainly not "too much" power.

This is claimed to be a stock AP2 pull:


It's not splitting hairs. To point at peak horsepower numbers and say, "They make the same!" is foolish. They are two completely different engine designs that make power at very different ends of the curve. On the lower end of the curve, the 86 is making 30-35 lb/ft more torque than the S2K. Even at peak, the torque is still up by 20 lb/ft. The S2K doesn't begin to take off until the V-Tec kicks in, y0 at 6k. And look at where the peak numbers are made: the S2K makes peak torque at ~6400 and peak horsepower at ~8000. The 86 makes peak torque at ~3400 and peak horsepower at ~6800. That's why comparing peak number ratings doesn't tell the entire story.

And I didn't say the 86 would have "too much" power if any were added. I dropped a V8 in a 944, after all.

[D Griff]

I think it has plenty of power.

I took mine out the other night for a bit. It's a great car. Just a few things I need to do to really be 100% happy with it. I feel like I've fully addressed the sound system and clutch feel. I have some knee pads I need to install so I stop having to brace myself against the plastic console pieces. I need to unplug the fake engine noise speaker. The only other thing is shifter feel. It still feels very sloppy and rubbery to me. Too many years of S2000 + Miata have ruined me I think.

I might try a transmission mount and bushing swap to see if that helps. I'm hesitant to go down the short shifter route. That creates other problems in the problem. I'm more trying to get the slop out of it than shorten the length of the throw.

Glad to hear that the stereo is still good for you! You just did the speakers only, right? I should maybe do this. Any buzzing from taking the panels off and putting them back on?

Definitely unplug the dumb noise maker, it’s better this way.

Very funny about the shifter, it feels great to me but I had a BMW previously, worst shifters in the game.

[D Griff]

I believe an 86 is faster than an S2K in every metric. That said, they’re close enough to not matter. S2000 was considerably more expensive adjusted for inflation and at the time was absolutely legendary HP/liter in an NA motor, hell, better than most turbos of the time in that respect even. It was basically $20-15k more than a Miata for a Miata with a race car engine. The twins have a pedestrian engine for cost cutting as it’s a low volume car.

I’m still quite appreciative that it’s NA. I think the right sacrifices were made, but if I could snap my fingers and have an F22 engine in there, I’d take it.

[max225]

How about the AP2? Either way IMO it's somewhat splitting hairs... They are very similar in performance right? Wind out or not.

If the BRZ had 260-300hp I don't think it would get that much heat and it is certainly not "too much" power.

This is claimed to be a stock AP2 pull:


It's not splitting hairs. To point at peak horsepower numbers and say, "They make the same!" is foolish. They are two completely different engine designs that make power at very different ends of the curve. On the lower end of the curve, the 86 is making 30-35 lb/ft more torque than the S2K. Even at peak, the torque is still up by 20 lb/ft. The S2K doesn't begin to take off until the V-Tec kicks in, y0 at 6k. And look at where the peak numbers are made: the S2K makes peak torque at ~6400 and peak horsepower at ~8000. The 86 makes peak torque at ~3400 and peak horsepower at ~6800. That's why comparing peak number ratings doesn't tell the entire story.

And I didn't say the 86 would have "too much" power if any were added. I dropped a V8 in a 944, after all.

I believe the cars are just about the same weight of around 2850lbs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... est/#error

S2000 1/4 mile at 14.1 to 60 at 5.4 seconds. 6 speed manual
BRZ

https://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/brz-2023#error
0-60 at 5.4 and 13.9 quarter

Yea not splitting hairs?! Seems like it to me … but whatever it works for internet quarterbacking.

The point was simply around the performance. And the performance seems close in a world where I can go sub 3 seconds in a car with 6 seats and 2 trunks. Or better yet pretty much do the same performance as those cars in a rav 4

[Huckleberry]

This is claimed to be a stock AP2 pull:


It's not splitting hairs. To point at peak horsepower numbers and say, "They make the same!" is foolish. They are two completely different engine designs that make power at very different ends of the curve. On the lower end of the curve, the 86 is making 30-35 lb/ft more torque than the S2K. Even at peak, the torque is still up by 20 lb/ft. The S2K doesn't begin to take off until the V-Tec kicks in, y0 at 6k. And look at where the peak numbers are made: the S2K makes peak torque at ~6400 and peak horsepower at ~8000. The 86 makes peak torque at ~3400 and peak horsepower at ~6800. That's why comparing peak number ratings doesn't tell the entire story.

And I didn't say the 86 would have "too much" power if any were added. I dropped a V8 in a 944, after all.

I believe the cars are just about the same weight of around 2850lbs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... est/#error

S2000 1/4 mile at 14.1 to 60 at 5.4 seconds. 6 speed manual
BRZ

https://www.caranddriver.com/subaru/brz-2023#error
0-60 at 5.4 and 13.9 quarter

Yea not splitting hairs?! Seems like it to me … but whatever it works for internet quarterbacking.

The point was simply around the performance. And the performance seems close in a world where I can go sub 3 seconds in a car with 6 seats and 2 trunks. Or better yet pretty much do the same performance as those cars in a rav 4

The discussion was around people pointing at peak numbers to compare engine outputs.

[max225]

I posted 0-60 and 1/4 mile times ?

[CaleDeRoo]

1/4mi are admittedly only half the equation. If you're cruising on the street at 3-4k rpm in either car the BRZ86 is going to feel a lot more responsive and quicker. You're not always going to be in the right gear or the meat of the power with a S2000, but it would give you a reason to touch that supposedly world class shifter.

[J-Ho-Fo-Show69]

1/4mi are admittedly only half the equation. If you're cruising on the street at 3-4k rpm in either car the BRZ86 is going to feel a lot more responsive and quicker. You're not always going to be in the right gear or the meat of the power with a S2000, but it would give you a reason to touch that supposedly world class shifter.

Man, I miss redlining my s2k everywhere I went…

[Johnny_P]

1/4mi are admittedly only half the equation. If you're cruising on the street at 3-4k rpm in either car the BRZ86 is going to feel a lot more responsive and quicker. You're not always going to be in the right gear or the meat of the power with a S2000, but it would give you a reason to touch that supposedly world class shifter.

Yeah. It’s like the MK6 GTI vs an 8th gen Civic Si. They’re about the same 0-60, quarter mile etc on paper. But driving around the GTI feels like it has double the motor.

[MrH42]

I think it has plenty of power.

I took mine out the other night for a bit. It's a great car. Just a few things I need to do to really be 100% happy with it. I feel like I've fully addressed the sound system and clutch feel. I have some knee pads I need to install so I stop having to brace myself against the plastic console pieces. I need to unplug the fake engine noise speaker. The only other thing is shifter feel. It still feels very sloppy and rubbery to me. Too many years of S2000 + Miata have ruined me I think.

I might try a transmission mount and bushing swap to see if that helps. I'm hesitant to go down the short shifter route. That creates other problems in the problem. I'm more trying to get the slop out of it than shorten the length of the throw.

Glad to hear that the stereo is still good for you! You just did the speakers only, right? I should maybe do this. Any buzzing from taking the panels off and putting them back on?

Definitely unplug the dumb noise maker, it’s better this way.

Very funny about the shifter, it feels great to me but I had a BMW previously, worst shifters in the game.

Yeah, just speakers. I can't imagine wanting more bass out of this, but I listen to everything pretty balanced. It looks like OEM Audio + changed the package on this car though? I replaced a total of 6 speakers - the doors, the mids on the dash, and the tweeters on the dash. Looks like they removed the mids on the dash from the package?

I have a very faint rattle noise of some sort. Can't seem to hunt it down, and it might have been there before the install. I don't think I created it really.

Yeah, it's all about what you're used to. I'm spoiled with shifter feel for sure. NC miata and S2000 are some of the best.

[MrH42]

I believe an 86 is faster than an S2K in every metric. That said, they’re close enough to not matter. S2000 was considerably more expensive adjusted for inflation and at the time was absolutely legendary HP/liter in an NA motor, hell, better than most turbos of the time in that respect even. It was basically $20-15k more than a Miata for a Miata with a race car engine. The twins have a pedestrian engine for cost cutting as it’s a low volume car.

I’m still quite appreciative that it’s NA. I think the right sacrifices were made, but if I could snap my fingers and have an F22 engine in there, I’d take it.

Compared to my AP1, yeah, the BRZ feels faster in most scenarios. I would also take an F20C over the current BRZ engine any day. That engine made the entire car. It's much more exciting.

[max225]

1/4mi are admittedly only half the equation. If you're cruising on the street at 3-4k rpm in either car the BRZ86 is going to feel a lot more responsive and quicker. You're not always going to be in the right gear or the meat of the power with a S2000, but it would give you a reason to touch that supposedly world class shifter.

Man, I miss redlining my s2k everywhere I went…

Yea that's kind of the draw isn't it? You just ring that thing out to go from streetlight to streetlight. DD'ing that is abysmal.. then again I am sure it's similarly difficult on the BRZ. But that's not the purpose of those cars... its fun per $ imo. And those 3 are on top of the list... BRZ/Miata/S2K

[J-Ho-Fo-Show69]

Man, I miss redlining my s2k everywhere I went…

Yea that's kind of the draw isn't it? You just ring that thing out to go from streetlight to streetlight. DD'ing that is abysmal.. then again I am sure it's similarly difficult on the BRZ. But that's not the purpose of those cars... its fun per $ imo. And those 3 are on top of the list... BRZ/Miata/S2K

I dailyed an s2k for a while. Maybe I was younger and didn’t notice the ride quality, but I rode in my buddy’s brz in my thirty’s and that thing rides like shit. It was literally like driving a go cart. I couldn’t imagine driving that for what I do for work…. And I DD a 2000 TJ half the time.

[max225]

Yea that's kind of the draw isn't it? You just ring that thing out to go from streetlight to streetlight. DD'ing that is abysmal.. then again I am sure it's similarly difficult on the BRZ. But that's not the purpose of those cars... its fun per $ imo. And those 3 are on top of the list... BRZ/Miata/S2K

I dailyed an s2k for a while. Maybe I was younger and didn’t notice the ride quality, but I rode in my buddy’s brz in my thirty’s and that thing rides like shit. It was literally like driving a go cart. I couldn’t imagine driving that for what I do for work…. And I DD a 2000 TJ half the time.

I DD’ed a lowered C5 in my 20s … we all do dumb shit

[CaleDeRoo]

I dailyed an s2k for a while. Maybe I was younger and didn’t notice the ride quality, but I rode in my buddy’s brz in my thirty’s and that thing rides like shit. It was literally like driving a go cart. I couldn’t imagine driving that for what I do for work…. And I DD a 2000 TJ half the time.

I DD’ed a lowered C5 in my 20s … we all do dumb shit

[J-Ho-Fo-Show69]

I DD’ed a lowered C5 in my 20s … we all do dumb shit

Cale has entered the chat

[CaleDeRoo]

Except I'm THIRTY with a lowered Corvette