OT 21: DFD Giveth and DFD Taketh Away

[SAWCE]

I’d hope in a situation like this, that the parents have read the material on the website and understand the nature of the program and are either okay with letting the program introduce these topics to their children, or sit down and have those talks before sending their kid off to it.

[Valkyrie]

Ain't a damn thing about sex or sexuality involved. That's for the priests and creepy stepdads.

The idea that folks should be able to confidently choose whatever image and individual pursuits they like has nothing to do with getting into anyone's pants.

Kids shouldn't be force fed a lot of things, like pretty much the entire old testament...

[wap]

Ain't a damn thing about sex or sexuality involved. That's for the priests and creepy stepdads.

The idea that folks should be able to confidently choose whatever image and individual pursuits they like has nothing to do with getting into anyone's pants.

Kids shouldn't be force fed a lot of things, like pretty much the entire old testament...

And on the bolded.

[golftdibrad1]

Ain't a damn thing about sex or sexuality involved. That's for the priests and creepy stepdads.

The idea that folks should be able to confidently choose whatever image and individual pursuits they like has nothing to do with getting into anyone's pants.

Kids shouldn't be force fed a lot of things, like pretty much the entire old testament...

then they should change the fucking website.

[golftdibrad1]

I’d hope in a situation like this, that the parents have read the material on the website and understand the nature of the program and are either okay with letting the program introduce these topics to their children, or sit down and have those talks before sending their kid off to it.

agree. and again most of the people are well intentioned.

But when that shit is right there on the website? from me

[Valkyrie]

Ain't a damn thing about sex or sexuality involved. That's for the priests and creepy stepdads.

The idea that folks should be able to confidently choose whatever image and individual pursuits they like has nothing to do with getting into anyone's pants.

Kids shouldn't be force fed a lot of things, like pretty much the entire old testament...

then they should change the fucking website.

Gender identity and expression have absolutely nothing to do with sex or sexuality.

[golftdibrad1]

then they should change the fucking website.

Gender identity and expression have absolutely nothing to do with sex or sexuality.

1. Bullshit.

2. Explain that effectively to a 10 year old without talking about boy and girls parts, why they are different, and what people are trying to accomplish by 'gender expression.' Its not possible IMHO (see point 1) and I don't want anyone trying it on my kid; that's my job.

[Valkyrie]

Gender identity and expression have absolutely nothing to do with sex or sexuality.

1. Bullshit.

2. Explain that effectively to a 10 year old without talking about boy and girls parts, why they are different, and what people are trying to accomplish by 'gender expression.' Its not possible IMHO (see point 1) and I don't want anyone trying it on my kid; that's my job.

The difference is not going to be explained because sex/sexuality is not being mentioned in any way. This is easier for 10 year olds since their minds aren't yet in the gutter, apparently.

We're talking about addressing people as they ask to be addressed, even if that's different from how you knew them earlier - and it being OK for you to ask others to do the same for you.

We're talking about it being OK to wear any combination of "girl's" or "boy's" clothes/hairstyles/makeup, even if that's different from what you did last year - and it being OK for anyone to do any combination of the same.

We're talking about it being OK to be into glitter and unicorns and dressmaking while also being in a heavy metal band and studying computers and it being OK for others to do any combination of the same. There are not "boy" and "girl" pursuits.

We're talking about it being OK to be strong and independent and confident and crying and in need of help and it all being OK for others too...


It's nothing to do with what (or who) is in your god damn pants - or under your skirt as the case may be.

[coogles]

I would argue that there are bell curves of masculine and feminine traits in men and women, and that they are not the same. I would argue they DO overlap, however. The most masculine females can and do display those traits more than the most feminine males and vice versa. To say there's no correlation I think is disingenuous, as is saying that all men and all women must conform to what we perceive to be gender norms in our culture.

[golftdibrad1]

1. Bullshit.

2. Explain that effectively to a 10 year old without talking about boy and girls parts, why they are different, and what people are trying to accomplish by 'gender expression.' Its not possible IMHO (see point 1) and I don't want anyone trying it on my kid; that's my job.

The difference is not going to be explained because sex/sexuality is not being mentioned in any way. This is easier for 10 year olds since their minds aren't yet in the gutter, apparently.

We're talking about addressing people as they ask to be addressed, even if that's different from how you knew them earlier - and it being OK for you to ask others to do the same for you.

We're talking about it being OK to wear any combination of "girl's" or "boy's" clothes/hairstyles/makeup, even if that's different from what you did last year - and it being OK for anyone to do any combination of the same.

We're talking about it being OK to be into glitter and unicorns and dressmaking while also being in a heavy metal band and studying computers and it being OK for others to do any combination of the same. There are not "boy" and "girl" pursuits.

We're talking about it being OK to be strong and independent and confident and crying and in need of help and it all being OK for others too...


It's nothing to do with what (or who) is in your god damn pants - or under your skirt as the case may be.

This is idealized bullshit.

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

[SAWCE]

The difference is not going to be explained because sex/sexuality is not being mentioned in any way. This is easier for 10 year olds since their minds aren't yet in the gutter, apparently.

We're talking about addressing people as they ask to be addressed, even if that's different from how you knew them earlier - and it being OK for you to ask others to do the same for you.

We're talking about it being OK to wear any combination of "girl's" or "boy's" clothes/hairstyles/makeup, even if that's different from what you did last year - and it being OK for anyone to do any combination of the same.

We're talking about it being OK to be into glitter and unicorns and dressmaking while also being in a heavy metal band and studying computers and it being OK for others to do any combination of the same. There are not "boy" and "girl" pursuits.

We're talking about it being OK to be strong and independent and confident and crying and in need of help and it all being OK for others too...


It's nothing to do with what (or who) is in your god damn pants - or under your skirt as the case may be.

This is idealized bullshit.

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

Can’t speak for her, but I don’t see Val chasing after any girl “pursuits”… just aligning her outward appearance to who she feels she is on the inside

[Valkyrie]

The difference is not going to be explained because sex/sexuality is not being mentioned in any way. This is easier for 10 year olds since their minds aren't yet in the gutter, apparently.

We're talking about addressing people as they ask to be addressed, even if that's different from how you knew them earlier - and it being OK for you to ask others to do the same for you.

We're talking about it being OK to wear any combination of "girl's" or "boy's" clothes/hairstyles/makeup, even if that's different from what you did last year - and it being OK for anyone to do any combination of the same.

We're talking about it being OK to be into glitter and unicorns and dressmaking while also being in a heavy metal band and studying computers and it being OK for others to do any combination of the same. There are not "boy" and "girl" pursuits.

We're talking about it being OK to be strong and independent and confident and crying and in need of help and it all being OK for others too...


It's nothing to do with what (or who) is in your god damn pants - or under your skirt as the case may be.

This is idealized bullshit.

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

I'll attempt some explanation in a bit, but first these two things:

We almost always start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex. See physics students starting out with frictionless surfaces and point masses with no relativistic effects, etc.

Why do you want to be a man?

[Irish]

My oldest is a straight binary Male.

My middle son is bi sexual. He has had a girlfriend (in high school) and now has a boyfriend in college.

My youngest was born with female anatomy and we named "her" Rileigh. But HE has been calling himself Ryan to friends since 5th grade. He now is taking hormones to have his body begin to align with who he truly feels that he is. He plans to transition at some point and has my blessing.

I never expected to be faced with my own prejudices relative to my own children but that's what happened. I am as hetero as they come, as is my wife and it took/takes a bit of an adjustment. But in the end, I only want them to be happy and to be loved. It is NOT up to me (or any one fucking else), what form that love takes. My biggest concern is that they (two of the gentlest souls in the world) will be injured by those who just do not or WILL not understand.....

[golftdibrad1]

This is idealized bullshit.

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

I'll attempt some explanation in a bit, but first these two things:

We almost always start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex. See physics students starting out with frictionless surfaces and point masses with no relativistic effects, etc.

Why do you want to be a man?

Now we get somewhere: Yes we do "start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex." Which is exactly fucking why its not ok to speak to kids about this shit! The bright kid in class that put together that friction is real and his calculation is idealized for their skill level might go on to be a nuclear physicist. They probably will read extra on this topic. You start talking to a confused tomboy girl like that and it introduces unnecessary confusion at a critical developmental stage, and they suffer permanent consequences. Sometimes physical ones if the left would have its way with kiddie gender clinics and the like.

We dont want kids doing this same thing with gender and sex. These are adult ideas you are talking about introducing to kids that have not entered puberty. They dont even need to know what this is. It needs to be simple as possible. Be kind. Boys potty here and girls potty here, because I said so. Dress like this to be normal. Dress like this will make you stand out. End of discussion. When kids hit puberty is when FAMILY can start to introduce these ideas with the help of trusted adults.

95% or more of people are at least somewhat attracted to the opposite sex. Society is tailored to this, not the other whatever percent of people that fall outside of normal. They of course have rights to do what they want. And some people wont like it, and those people are the more assholey of the group. You will never stop that, sorry.

You might think I'm the asshole for being blunt, or pushing back on this insanity, and thats fine. It seems anyone that speaks up to be a reasonable voice to protect kids on this issue these days gets all the labels. I assure you, I am not a biggot. Just stay the fuck away from the kids and you LGBT folks can do what the fuck every you want on your own time and i genuinely give zero fucks.

Final note on rights. Babies, children, teenyboppers, teens, and young adults all have varying levels of civil rights in this world starting with almost none and progressively increasing as they gain experience and trust of the adults around them. It is not a teenagers (for this purpose lets say ~15 & younger) 'right' to decide to permanently alter their body, or consume certain topics in books, or engage in sexual activity.

As to why I want to / like being a man, I will answer but you have to answer first. One can't expect to have an intelligent discussion when questions are answered with questions.

[D Griff]

1. Bullshit.

2. Explain that effectively to a 10 year old without talking about boy and girls parts, why they are different, and what people are trying to accomplish by 'gender expression.' Its not possible IMHO (see point 1) and I don't want anyone trying it on my kid; that's my job.

The difference is not going to be explained because sex/sexuality is not being mentioned in any way. This is easier for 10 year olds since their minds aren't yet in the gutter, apparently.

We're talking about addressing people as they ask to be addressed, even if that's different from how you knew them earlier - and it being OK for you to ask others to do the same for you.

We're talking about it being OK to wear any combination of "girl's" or "boy's" clothes/hairstyles/makeup, even if that's different from what you did last year - and it being OK for anyone to do any combination of the same.

We're talking about it being OK to be into glitter and unicorns and dressmaking while also being in a heavy metal band and studying computers and it being OK for others to do any combination of the same. There are not "boy" and "girl" pursuits.

We're talking about it being OK to be strong and independent and confident and crying and in need of help and it all being OK for others too...


It's nothing to do with what (or who) is in your god damn pants - or under your skirt as the case may be.

I don't see how allowing kids to wear what they feel good in, play with toys/sports/hobbies/instruments that they enjoy, talk how they'd like to talk, etc. does anything but help them assuming it's all within the bounds of also being respectful and loving to one another.

I will admit that I don't really know how I'd feel about my own sub 18 year old kid asking for approval for hormone treatments or surgeries, this is a tougher question and a bridge I'll cross if it ever comes.

This is a music camp that seems to be encouraging individualism among the kids in being who they want to be ? Seems a nonissue.

[Valkyrie]

This is a music camp that seems to be encouraging individualism among the kids in being who they want to be ? Seems a nonissue.

This guy wins the prize for today, though music is merely the vehicle in this case. It's about adding your voice to a diverse group and lifting up those around you to create something new. That we've all got something to contribute and be proud of without trying to fit ourselves into some box - and so do the weirdos around us.

[Valkyrie]

I'll attempt some explanation in a bit, but first these two things:

We almost always start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex. See physics students starting out with frictionless surfaces and point masses with no relativistic effects, etc.

Why do you want to be a man?

Now we get somewhere: Yes we do "start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex." Which is exactly fucking why its not ok to speak to kids about this shit! The bright kid in class that put together that friction is real and his calculation is idealized for their skill level might go on to be a nuclear physicist. They probably will read extra on this topic. You start talking to a confused tomboy girl like that and it introduces unnecessary confusion at a critical developmental stage, and they suffer permanent consequences. Sometimes physical ones if the left would have its way with kiddie gender clinics and the like.

We dont want kids doing this same thing with gender and sex. These are adult ideas you are talking about introducing to kids that have not entered puberty. They dont even need to know what this is. It needs to be simple as possible. Be kind. Boys potty here and girls potty here, because I said so. Dress like this to be normal. Dress like this will make you stand out. End of discussion. When kids hit puberty is when FAMILY can start to introduce these ideas with the help of trusted adults.

95% or more of people are at least somewhat attracted to the opposite sex. Society is tailored to this, not the other whatever percent of people that fall outside of normal. They of course have rights to do what they want. And some people wont like it, and those people are the more assholey of the group. You will never stop that, sorry.

You might think I'm the asshole for being blunt, or pushing back on this insanity, and thats fine. It seems anyone that speaks up to be a reasonable voice to protect kids on this issue these days gets all the labels. I assure you, I am not a biggot. Just stay the fuck away from the kids and you LGBT folks can do what the fuck every you want on your own time and i genuinely give zero fucks.

Final note on rights. Babies, children, teenyboppers, teens, and young adults all have varying levels of civil rights in this world starting with almost none and progressively increasing as they gain experience and trust of the adults around them. It is not a teenagers (for this purpose lets say ~15 & younger) 'right' to decide to permanently alter their body, or consume certain topics in books, or engage in sexual activity.

As to why I want to / like being a man, I will answer but you have to answer first. One can't expect to have an intelligent discussion when questions are answered with questions.

Gender is not an adult idea. We force kids into boxes (which they quickly start enforcing on each other, often quite cruelly) before they're even born with all this pink and blue nonsense. Barbie vs GI Joe, long hair vs short, you know the drill.

Gender is about presentation and participation in social settings, which for most people starts with school. To pretend that it's not a thing until adulthood is not helpful.

To keep trying to make this stuff about sex, sexuality, surgeries, etc. is to conflate a whole bunch of different things that are not relevant to the discussion. In the context of a music camp, gender is how you look and what you call yourself. That's it. None of those "S-words" are mentioned, period. I'm pretty sure that's actually a rule for all of us instructors and you'd put yourself and the program in jeopardy by breaking it.


Now, since I am procrastinating from doing work that I don't want to do this afternoon I will engage for a bit on the more personal stuff:

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

I don't want to be a girl. I am a woman. Why? I have no clue. I've been this way for as long as I can remember. I got the message loud and clear as a young kid though that I needed to hide it if not fix it on my own without ever telling anyone. I spent 30+ years absolutely hating myself for being broken and too fucking stupid to just be normal. Now I hate myself for having wasted 30+ years trying to force myself to fit a mold that was never going to work. Why wasn't I born a muscle-bound people-person like Dan who could enjoy a great living by just talking to people or, better yet, a regular woman who could go through life without facing all this garbage? What the fuck did I do to deserve this?

In a way I'm still relatively lucky in that I fall pretty neatly into the societal bucket of 'woman' almost across the board, except for being a solid mechanic and interested in being a pro musician (which is a heavily male-dominated field). I can't imagine how rough the non-binary folks have it.

I guess I'm also quite the introvert, which is stereotypically not a woman thing - though I think introverts are pretty much considered to be another form of "broken" regardless of gender. There are no "How to Shut The Fuck Up" courses for extroverts, extroversion is regarded as the correct way to be a human. But that's another discussion entirely.

On that list bit: I never said that it doesn't matter, in fact it matters a great deal which is why the camp exists and why we're having this discussion. Differences need to be embraced, not merely tolerated at best. Girls need to listen to themselves and each other - and the rest of us need to listen to them.

[SAWCE]

Now we get somewhere: Yes we do "start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex." Which is exactly fucking why its not ok to speak to kids about this shit! The bright kid in class that put together that friction is real and his calculation is idealized for their skill level might go on to be a nuclear physicist. They probably will read extra on this topic. You start talking to a confused tomboy girl like that and it introduces unnecessary confusion at a critical developmental stage, and they suffer permanent consequences. Sometimes physical ones if the left would have its way with kiddie gender clinics and the like.

We dont want kids doing this same thing with gender and sex. These are adult ideas you are talking about introducing to kids that have not entered puberty. They dont even need to know what this is. It needs to be simple as possible. Be kind. Boys potty here and girls potty here, because I said so. Dress like this to be normal. Dress like this will make you stand out. End of discussion. When kids hit puberty is when FAMILY can start to introduce these ideas with the help of trusted adults.

95% or more of people are at least somewhat attracted to the opposite sex. Society is tailored to this, not the other whatever percent of people that fall outside of normal. They of course have rights to do what they want. And some people wont like it, and those people are the more assholey of the group. You will never stop that, sorry.

You might think I'm the asshole for being blunt, or pushing back on this insanity, and thats fine. It seems anyone that speaks up to be a reasonable voice to protect kids on this issue these days gets all the labels. I assure you, I am not a biggot. Just stay the fuck away from the kids and you LGBT folks can do what the fuck every you want on your own time and i genuinely give zero fucks.

Final note on rights. Babies, children, teenyboppers, teens, and young adults all have varying levels of civil rights in this world starting with almost none and progressively increasing as they gain experience and trust of the adults around them. It is not a teenagers (for this purpose lets say ~15 & younger) 'right' to decide to permanently alter their body, or consume certain topics in books, or engage in sexual activity.

As to why I want to / like being a man, I will answer but you have to answer first. One can't expect to have an intelligent discussion when questions are answered with questions.

Gender is not an adult idea. We force kids into boxes (which they quickly start enforcing on each other, often quite cruelly) before they're even born with all this pink and blue nonsense. Barbie vs GI Joe, long hair vs short, you know the drill.

Gender is about presentation and participation in social settings, which for most people starts with school. To pretend that it's not a thing until adulthood is not helpful.

To keep trying to make this stuff about sex, sexuality, surgeries, etc. is to conflate a whole bunch of different things that are not relevant to the discussion. In the context of a music camp, gender is how you look and what you call yourself. That's it. None of those "S-words" are mentioned, period. I'm pretty sure that's actually a rule for all of us instructors and you'd put yourself and the program in jeopardy by breaking it.


Now, since I am procrastinating from doing work that I don't want to do this afternoon I will engage for a bit on the more personal stuff:

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

I don't want to be a girl. I am a woman. Why? I have no clue. I've been this way for as long as I can remember. I got the message loud and clear as a young kid though that I needed to hide it if not fix it on my own without ever telling anyone. I spent 30+ years absolutely hating myself for being broken and too fucking stupid to just be normal. Now I hate myself for having wasted 30+ years trying to force myself to fit a mold that was never going to work. Why wasn't I born a muscle-bound people-person like Dan who could enjoy a great living by just talking to people or, better yet, a regular woman who could go through life without facing all this garbage? What the fuck did I do to deserve this?

In a way I'm still relatively lucky in that I fall pretty neatly into the societal bucket of 'woman' almost across the board, except for being a solid mechanic and interested in being a pro musician (which is a heavily male-dominated field). I can't imagine how rough the non-binary folks have it.

I guess I'm also quite the introvert, which is stereotypically not a woman thing - though I think introverts are pretty much considered to be another form of "broken" regardless of gender. There are no "How to Shut The Fuck Up" courses for extroverts, extroversion is regarded as the correct way to be a human. But that's another discussion entirely.

On that list bit: I never said that it doesn't matter, in fact it matters a great deal which is why the camp exists and why we're having this discussion. Differences need to be embraced, not merely tolerated at best. Girls need to listen to themselves and each other - and the rest of us need to listen to them.

[wap]

Gender is not an adult idea. We force kids into boxes (which they quickly start enforcing on each other, often quite cruelly) before they're even born with all this pink and blue nonsense. Barbie vs GI Joe, long hair vs short, you know the drill.

Gender is about presentation and participation in social settings, which for most people starts with school. To pretend that it's not a thing until adulthood is not helpful.

To keep trying to make this stuff about sex, sexuality, surgeries, etc. is to conflate a whole bunch of different things that are not relevant to the discussion. In the context of a music camp, gender is how you look and what you call yourself. That's it. None of those "S-words" are mentioned, period. I'm pretty sure that's actually a rule for all of us instructors and you'd put yourself and the program in jeopardy by breaking it.


Now, since I am procrastinating from doing work that I don't want to do this afternoon I will engage for a bit on the more personal stuff:



I don't want to be a girl. I am a woman. Why? I have no clue. I've been this way for as long as I can remember. I got the message loud and clear as a young kid though that I needed to hide it if not fix it on my own without ever telling anyone. I spent 30+ years absolutely hating myself for being broken and too fucking stupid to just be normal. Now I hate myself for having wasted 30+ years trying to force myself to fit a mold that was never going to work. Why wasn't I born a muscle-bound people-person like Dan who could enjoy a great living by just talking to people or, better yet, a regular woman who could go through life without facing all this garbage? What the fuck did I do to deserve this?

In a way I'm still relatively lucky in that I fall pretty neatly into the societal bucket of 'woman' almost across the board, except for being a solid mechanic and interested in being a pro musician (which is a heavily male-dominated field). I can't imagine how rough the non-binary folks have it.

I guess I'm also quite the introvert, which is stereotypically not a woman thing - though I think introverts are pretty much considered to be another form of "broken" regardless of gender. There are no "How to Shut The Fuck Up" courses for extroverts, extroversion is regarded as the correct way to be a human. But that's another discussion entirely.

On that list bit: I never said that it doesn't matter, in fact it matters a great deal which is why the camp exists and why we're having this discussion. Differences need to be embraced, not merely tolerated at best. Girls need to listen to themselves and each other - and the rest of us need to listen to them.

[golftdibrad1]

Now we get somewhere: Yes we do "start education with "idealized bullshit" because reality is usually quite a bit more nuanced and complex." Which is exactly fucking why its not ok to speak to kids about this shit! The bright kid in class that put together that friction is real and his calculation is idealized for their skill level might go on to be a nuclear physicist. They probably will read extra on this topic. You start talking to a confused tomboy girl like that and it introduces unnecessary confusion at a critical developmental stage, and they suffer permanent consequences. Sometimes physical ones if the left would have its way with kiddie gender clinics and the like.

We dont want kids doing this same thing with gender and sex. These are adult ideas you are talking about introducing to kids that have not entered puberty. They dont even need to know what this is. It needs to be simple as possible. Be kind. Boys potty here and girls potty here, because I said so. Dress like this to be normal. Dress like this will make you stand out. End of discussion. When kids hit puberty is when FAMILY can start to introduce these ideas with the help of trusted adults.

95% or more of people are at least somewhat attracted to the opposite sex. Society is tailored to this, not the other whatever percent of people that fall outside of normal. They of course have rights to do what they want. And some people wont like it, and those people are the more assholey of the group. You will never stop that, sorry.

You might think I'm the asshole for being blunt, or pushing back on this insanity, and thats fine. It seems anyone that speaks up to be a reasonable voice to protect kids on this issue these days gets all the labels. I assure you, I am not a biggot. Just stay the fuck away from the kids and you LGBT folks can do what the fuck every you want on your own time and i genuinely give zero fucks.

Final note on rights. Babies, children, teenyboppers, teens, and young adults all have varying levels of civil rights in this world starting with almost none and progressively increasing as they gain experience and trust of the adults around them. It is not a teenagers (for this purpose lets say ~15 & younger) 'right' to decide to permanently alter their body, or consume certain topics in books, or engage in sexual activity.

As to why I want to / like being a man, I will answer but you have to answer first. One can't expect to have an intelligent discussion when questions are answered with questions.

Gender is not an adult idea. We force kids into boxes (which they quickly start enforcing on each other, often quite cruelly) before they're even born with all this pink and blue nonsense. Barbie vs GI Joe, long hair vs short, you know the drill.

Gender is about presentation and participation in social settings, which for most people starts with school. To pretend that it's not a thing until adulthood is not helpful.

To keep trying to make this stuff about sex, sexuality, surgeries, etc. is to conflate a whole bunch of different things that are not relevant to the discussion. In the context of a music camp, gender is how you look and what you call yourself. That's it. None of those "S-words" are mentioned, period. I'm pretty sure that's actually a rule for all of us instructors and you'd put yourself and the program in jeopardy by breaking it.


Now, since I am procrastinating from doing work that I don't want to do this afternoon I will engage for a bit on the more personal stuff:

Explain this: why do you want to be a girl oh so bad if it 'doesn't matter' and there are not 'boy' and 'girl' pursuits?

I don't want to be a girl. I am a woman. Why? I have no clue. I've been this way for as long as I can remember. I got the message loud and clear as a young kid though that I needed to hide it if not fix it on my own without ever telling anyone. I spent 30+ years absolutely hating myself for being broken and too fucking stupid to just be normal. Now I hate myself for having wasted 30+ years trying to force myself to fit a mold that was never going to work. Why wasn't I born a muscle-bound people-person like Dan who could enjoy a great living by just talking to people or, better yet, a regular woman who could go through life without facing all this garbage? What the fuck did I do to deserve this?

In a way I'm still relatively lucky in that I fall pretty neatly into the societal bucket of 'woman' almost across the board, except for being a solid mechanic and interested in being a pro musician (which is a heavily male-dominated field). I can't imagine how rough the non-binary folks have it.

I guess I'm also quite the introvert, which is stereotypically not a woman thing - though I think introverts are pretty much considered to be another form of "broken" regardless of gender. There are no "How to Shut The Fuck Up" courses for extroverts, extroversion is regarded as the correct way to be a human. But that's another discussion entirely.

On that list bit: I never said that it doesn't matter, in fact it matters a great deal which is why the camp exists and why we're having this discussion. Differences need to be embraced, not merely tolerated at best. Girls need to listen to themselves and each other - and the rest of us need to listen to them.

well thanks for a thoughtful reply. however we strongly disagree. I do not approve of kids being exposed to this type of discussion, even if their idiot parents approve. Not that the opportunity will likely present itself, but don't talk to my kid about this shit till he is an adult. Clear?

Re: you gender, interesting insight. However you have to realize that gender identity =/= biology. Dem the digs, science motherfucker, etc.

Re: why do I want to me a man? Tis my nature. I am this way and have no desire to change it. I cannot know what it would be like to be born in wrong shell, although I can be empathetic to the fact some DO feel this way.

[Valkyrie]

FWIW I think it's only a matter of time before we come up with an objective explanation for WTF is up with people like me. Genetic markers, brain chemistry, something... but I bet it ends up falling into the realm of "biology" whenever we get to the point of understanding it. To claim that brain function isn't biological is unreasonable.

[Valkyrie]

If we're not going to allow any discussion of gender with kids involved, though, then that leads to an interesting number of conclusions:

No more boy's or girl's sports, because we can't talk about kids being boys or girls.

No more boy's or girl's bathrooms.

...and on and on, dress codes at school mean that everyone has to wear a beige sack and have medium-length hair.

No school dances. No cheerleaders. No (American) football.

Everyone must be treated exactly the same as everyone else, otherwise you are introducing ideas of gender.

Sounds great, komrade. Brad the Big Beige Bolshevik!?

[Irish]

Last day of school manana..... then it's off to the Yucatan Peninsula for 5 (I hope) glorious days with wife unit....

[max225]

Last day of school manana..... then it's of to the Yucatan Peninsula for 5 (I hope) glorious days with wife unit....

Post some pics plz

[Irish]

Last day of school manana..... then it's of to the Yucatan Peninsula for 5 (I hope) glorious days with wife unit....

Post some pics plz

Will do