Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[Valkyrie]

So poverty

poverty is where you end up after buying a 60k mazda that will be 6k in 7 years.

[CaleDeRoo]

So poverty

poverty is where you end up after buying a 60k mazda that will be 6k in 7 years.

I can't wait that sounds like a great deal

[max225]

I can't believe Mazda is launching a whole new I6... whole lotta going on with that brand.

[Desertbreh]

I like the big motor.

[CaleDeRoo]

I can't believe Mazda is launching a whole new I6... whole lotta going on with that brand.

IIRC Lexus is supposed to be using this platform for the next gen IS/GS

[max225]

I can't believe Mazda is launching a whole new I6... whole lotta going on with that brand.

IIRC Lexus is supposed to be using this platform for the next gen IS/GS

That would explain the why completely. A brand new I6 is a "Luxury" powertrain, throwing it into a mazda ecosystem filled by cost conscious 's seems futile.

[Johnny_P]

Looks alright. Rear end is pretty bulbous / lot of mass. Interior seems fine aside from the old looking tech.

I think aside from badges, the swoopy design of the cars isn’t really resonating with everyone. Case in point the Telluride vs the CX9. One looks like a truck and was a wild success. The other looks like a bulbous minivan and rotted on lots. Same price points.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

From a "product planning" standpoint, it makes some sense. Mazda's been trying to go "premium mainstream" for some time, which may or may not be the right call,

But the vehicle itself, Longitudinal (and thus RWD-based?) platform with a powerful engine is actually pretty rare in the segment. Exploder and Grand Cherokee are about it, and right? Towing. A RWD-based thing can tow quite a bit more than a FWD-based thing, and that's a unique proposition in this segment. It's not a mistake the thing is pictured towing an Airstream, I bet they're going to go after this market hard. Expeditions, Tahoes, and Sequoias are so that there's a market for RWD full-size SUVs that can tow. And for Japanese companies, there's zero competition (unless you consider the 4R I guess), so at least Mazda is doing something unique.

If the engine is used in premium Lexus products, then the volume is there for a business case. Really interesting moves by Toyota overall.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Looks alright. Rear end is pretty bulbous / lot of mass. Interior seems fine aside from the old looking tech.

I think aside from badges, the swoopy design of the cars isn’t really resonating with everyone. Case in point the Telluride vs the CX9. One looks like a truck and was a wild success. The other looks like a bulbous minivan and rotted on lots. Same price points.

Pretty much everything in this segment looks the same now. Aero combined with pedestrian safety standards pretty much dictate this shape now. It's not bad, but what it is.

[Johnny_P]

From a "product planning" standpoint, it makes some sense. Mazda's been trying to go "premium mainstream" for some time, which may or may not be the right call,

But the vehicle itself, Longitudinal (and thus RWD-based?) platform with a powerful engine is actually pretty rare in the segment. Exploder and Grand Cherokee are about it, and right? Towing. A RWD-based thing can tow quite a bit more than a FWD-based thing, and that's a unique proposition in this segment. It's not a mistake the thing is pictured towing an Airstream, I bet they're going to go after this market hard. Expeditions, Tahoes, and Sequoias are so that there's a market for RWD full-size SUVs that can tow. And for Japanese companies, there's zero competition (unless you consider the 4R I guess), so at least Mazda is doing something unique.

If the engine is used in premium Lexus products, then the volume is there for a business case. Really interesting moves by Toyota overall.

Maybe it will be in the next gen Supra.

[D Griff]

From a "product planning" standpoint, it makes some sense. Mazda's been trying to go "premium mainstream" for some time, which may or may not be the right call,

But the vehicle itself, Longitudinal (and thus RWD-based?) platform with a powerful engine is actually pretty rare in the segment. Exploder and Grand Cherokee are about it, and right? Towing. A RWD-based thing can tow quite a bit more than a FWD-based thing, and that's a unique proposition in this segment. It's not a mistake the thing is pictured towing an Airstream, I bet they're going to go after this market hard. Expeditions, Tahoes, and Sequoias are so that there's a market for RWD full-size SUVs that can tow. And for Japanese companies, there's zero competition (unless you consider the 4R I guess), so at least Mazda is doing something unique.

If the engine is used in premium Lexus products, then the volume is there for a business case. Really interesting moves by Toyota overall.

If they are cost sharing with Toyota it seems pretty interesting that they will now have a cool/powerful engine within their lineup. Mazda has had nice vehicles with lame ass powertrains for many years now, curious to see what else this goes in.

A fairly high powered inline six RWD platform seems and I think the car looks nice for what it is.

[D Griff]

From a "product planning" standpoint, it makes some sense. Mazda's been trying to go "premium mainstream" for some time, which may or may not be the right call,

But the vehicle itself, Longitudinal (and thus RWD-based?) platform with a powerful engine is actually pretty rare in the segment. Exploder and Grand Cherokee are about it, and right? Towing. A RWD-based thing can tow quite a bit more than a FWD-based thing, and that's a unique proposition in this segment. It's not a mistake the thing is pictured towing an Airstream, I bet they're going to go after this market hard. Expeditions, Tahoes, and Sequoias are so that there's a market for RWD full-size SUVs that can tow. And for Japanese companies, there's zero competition (unless you consider the 4R I guess), so at least Mazda is doing something unique.

If the engine is used in premium Lexus products, then the volume is there for a business case. Really interesting moves by Toyota overall.

Maybe it will be in the next gen Supra.

Out of the gate it's like 50-100 hp down on the BMW unit which is actually pretty reliable.

I suppose it's one away from 450 HP

[ChrisoftheNorth]

From a "product planning" standpoint, it makes some sense. Mazda's been trying to go "premium mainstream" for some time, which may or may not be the right call,

But the vehicle itself, Longitudinal (and thus RWD-based?) platform with a powerful engine is actually pretty rare in the segment. Exploder and Grand Cherokee are about it, and right? Towing. A RWD-based thing can tow quite a bit more than a FWD-based thing, and that's a unique proposition in this segment. It's not a mistake the thing is pictured towing an Airstream, I bet they're going to go after this market hard. Expeditions, Tahoes, and Sequoias are so that there's a market for RWD full-size SUVs that can tow. And for Japanese companies, there's zero competition (unless you consider the 4R I guess), so at least Mazda is doing something unique.

If the engine is used in premium Lexus products, then the volume is there for a business case. Really interesting moves by Toyota overall.

If they are cost sharing with Toyota it seems pretty interesting that they will now have a cool/powerful engine within their lineup. Mazda has had nice vehicles with lame ass powertrains for many years now, curious to see what else this goes in.

A fairly high powered inline six RWD platform seems and I think the car looks nice for what it is.

Toyota just continues to impress. A lot of really smart moves in this market, interesting to see what the future holds.

Now that people can't buy anything at any price, ICE cars and hybrids are going to get more attention, mark my words.

Just today I was interviewing a candidate with my (now former) boss to replace me. Dude works at Ford on EVs and he said there's a lot of internal turmoil over the EV only strategy. Apparently when people can't buy anything at any price and the reality of supply chain and infrastructure here sinks in, old plans need to be dusted off. ICE, hybrids, etc he said it's a shit show in planning at the moment.



I really think Toyota is going to really dominate the next decade in the industry.

[max225]

Ima just leave this here … model Y is outselling the Camry world wide now …

Which is why everyone is trying to make EVs except they decided to go super high end … which is the issue. But tesla just forced price cuts on everyone.

IDs are 9k off locally… like that’s insane

[golftdibrad1]

If they are cost sharing with Toyota it seems pretty interesting that they will now have a cool/powerful engine within their lineup. Mazda has had nice vehicles with lame ass powertrains for many years now, curious to see what else this goes in.

A fairly high powered inline six RWD platform seems and I think the car looks nice for what it is.

Toyota just continues to impress. A lot of really smart moves in this market, interesting to see what the future holds.

Now that people can't buy anything at any price, ICE cars and hybrids are going to get more attention, mark my words.

Just today I was interviewing a candidate with my (now former) boss to replace me. Dude works at Ford on EVs and he said there's a lot of internal turmoil over the EV only strategy. Apparently when people can't buy anything at any price and the reality of supply chain and infrastructure here sinks in, old plans need to be dusted off. ICE, hybrids, etc he said it's a shit show in planning at the moment.



I really think Toyota is going to really dominate the next decade in the industry.

And Hybrids are why. if you cannot get an unlimited supply of things for the batteries, it makes a lot of sense to have a ton of electric with ICE range extended vehicles in your lineup. Toyota has the best IP on these setups. This is what will add value for the vast majority of consumers. Why have a battery that has 200+ miles of range when 50-75 is good enough for 90% of your driving?

I really think that as the reality of the scarcity of these minerals sinks in more stuff will go in this direction. Also, I know, CA 2035, yea, whatever. origonal ZEV program? I

The first phase, beginning in 1990 and running through 2003, was marked by highly optimistic goals set by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), the agency with the authority to set the stringency of the mandate: 10 percent of new car sales in the state were to be electric by 2001. The rules were “technology forcing,” in that the technology did not exist at the time at a commercial scale. The goals were not even close to being feasible, and there were almost no electric vehicles on the road by 2001. CARB had to backtrack on the regulations a number of times during this period, and a court order required them to put the ZEV rules on hold for several years.

https://www.resources.org/common-resour ... e-success/

[MrH42]

Ima just leave this here … model Y is outselling the Camry world wide now …

Which is why everyone is trying to make EVs except they decided to go super high end … which is the issue. But tesla just forced price cuts on everyone.

IDs are 9k off locally… like that’s insane

You're definitely living in an EV bubble. You're not getting $9k off an ID.4 anywhere else in the country.

[max225]

Toyota just continues to impress. A lot of really smart moves in this market, interesting to see what the future holds.

Now that people can't buy anything at any price, ICE cars and hybrids are going to get more attention, mark my words.

Just today I was interviewing a candidate with my (now former) boss to replace me. Dude works at Ford on EVs and he said there's a lot of internal turmoil over the EV only strategy. Apparently when people can't buy anything at any price and the reality of supply chain and infrastructure here sinks in, old plans need to be dusted off. ICE, hybrids, etc he said it's a shit show in planning at the moment.



I really think Toyota is going to really dominate the next decade in the industry.

And Hybrids are why. if you cannot get an unlimited supply of things for the batteries, it makes a lot of sense to have a ton of electric with ICE range extended vehicles in your lineup. Toyota has the best IP on these setups. This is what will add value for the vast majority of consumers. Why have a battery that has 200+ miles of range when 50-75 is good enough for 90% of your driving?

I really think that as the reality of the scarcity of these minerals sinks in more stuff will go in this direction. Also, I know, CA 2035, yea, whatever. origonal ZEV program? I

The first phase, beginning in 1990 and running through 2003, was marked by highly optimistic goals set by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), the agency with the authority to set the stringency of the mandate: 10 percent of new car sales in the state were to be electric by 2001. The rules were “technology forcing,” in that the technology did not exist at the time at a commercial scale. The goals were not even close to being feasible, and there were almost no electric vehicles on the road by 2001. CARB had to backtrack on the regulations a number of times during this period, and a court order required them to put the ZEV rules on hold for several years.

https://www.resources.org/common-resour ... e-success/

To me it all depends on price. Some EVs like the ID4 for ex are just about as much as a prius locally... I'd probably pick the EV.

[max225]

Ima just leave this here … model Y is outselling the Camry world wide now …

Which is why everyone is trying to make EVs except they decided to go super high end … which is the issue. But tesla just forced price cuts on everyone.

IDs are 9k off locally… like that’s insane

You're definitely living in an EV bubble. You're not getting $9k off an ID.4 anywhere else in the country.

Maybe? Ford is now discounting the MachE up to 7k

[MrH42]

You're definitely living in an EV bubble. You're not getting $9k off an ID.4 anywhere else in the country.

Maybe? Ford is now discounting the MachE up to 7k

Are you talking price cuts from the dealer, or the OEM? Ford announced some price cuts on the Mach E that are between a couple hundred bucks up to $5900, depending on the trim level.

I don't see any EV selling for below MSRP around here.

[max225]

Maybe? Ford is now discounting the MachE up to 7k

Are you talking price cuts from the dealer, or the OEM? Ford announced some price cuts on the Mach E that are between a couple hundred bucks up to $5900, depending on the trim level.

I don't see any EV selling for below MSRP around here.

I mean the point is the prices are coming down. The reason the ID4 has 9k on the hood here is because tesla slashed prices by up to 12k. Others are following. The gap between EVs and non EVs is non existent here now in the 40-60k purchase range.

[MrH42]

I wouldn't say the gap is non-existent. Mainstream ICE crossovers aren't in the $40k-$60k range. A Rav4 isn't the same price as an ID.4.

A lot of what's driving sales right now is this 1 quarter exemption on the EV credit requirements. Take out the incentives, and they're still dramatically more expensive. We're kind of seeing a perfect storm driving huge EV sales right now (big EV credit + excess inventory & capacity on Tesla's part). It's not a reduction in cost that's creating more price parity.

[max225]

I wouldn't say the gap is non-existent. Mainstream ICE crossovers aren't in the $40k-$60k range. A Rav4 isn't the same price as an ID.4.

A lot of what's driving sales right now is this 1 quarter exemption on the EV credit requirements. Take out the incentives, and they're still dramatically more expensive. We're kind of seeing a perfect storm driving huge EV sales right now (big EV credit + excess inventory & capacity on Tesla's part). It's not a reduction in cost that's creating more price parity.

Yep you can still get a base FWD model for cheaper. But once you compare say a Rav 4 Prime to a ID4 the gap isn't there.

[golftdibrad1]

And Hybrids are why. if you cannot get an unlimited supply of things for the batteries, it makes a lot of sense to have a ton of electric with ICE range extended vehicles in your lineup. Toyota has the best IP on these setups. This is what will add value for the vast majority of consumers. Why have a battery that has 200+ miles of range when 50-75 is good enough for 90% of your driving?

I really think that as the reality of the scarcity of these minerals sinks in more stuff will go in this direction. Also, I know, CA 2035, yea, whatever. origonal ZEV program? I

https://www.resources.org/common-resour ... e-success/

To me it all depends on price. Some EVs like the ID4 for ex are just about as much as a prius locally... I'd probably pick the EV.

as we have discussed, you are in a minority in this opinion. And thats fine, but you are rich.

[MrH42]

I wouldn't say the gap is non-existent. Mainstream ICE crossovers aren't in the $40k-$60k range. A Rav4 isn't the same price as an ID.4.

A lot of what's driving sales right now is this 1 quarter exemption on the EV credit requirements. Take out the incentives, and they're still dramatically more expensive. We're kind of seeing a perfect storm driving huge EV sales right now (big EV credit + excess inventory & capacity on Tesla's part). It's not a reduction in cost that's creating more price parity.

Yep you can still get a base FWD model for cheaper. But once you compare say a Rav 4 Prime to a ID4 the gap isn't there.

So you're counting PHEV as "Non-EVs"? PHEVs are typically splitting the price difference between ICE and EVs. There's still a big divide though in terms of pricing.

[max225]

Yep you can still get a base FWD model for cheaper. But once you compare say a Rav 4 Prime to a ID4 the gap isn't there.

So you're counting PHEV as "Non-EVs"? PHEVs are typically splitting the price difference between ICE and EVs. There's still a big divide though in terms of pricing.

I am counting anything with an ICE as a non ev.