Yep. In addition I hate the fact that some tunes a 210hp to 350.. No way in hell will it not blow up and destroy significant components down the line... and some poor shmuk will buy it 3 year down the road and be stuck with 15k engine replacement bill. That's not ok from many perspective in my book. It is , and stupid.
No different than revving an engine to 8000rpm daily.
Good point on the customer protection aspect, I swore to never buy a used vehicle that was previously tuned, but even that can be impossible to detect if you're just cruising a lot. Another consideration that makes me about buying a used WRX.
It's just a waste... these engines don't fail if they are not stressed to these levels. I fucking hate 's and willing to die on that hill. Nothing 20% over stock should be allowed on public roads period. I don't want to be behind a POS golf R that blows a rod through a block while doing the 300ths test pull ala
That sort shit is just I know there are plenty of people that would enjoy a small bump... ala Dinan or something of the likes. But what GAYPR and all these Hamburger tunes have been doing is just a waste of cars/resources.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:11 pm
Good point on the customer protection aspect, I swore to never buy a used vehicle that was previously tuned, but even that can be impossible to detect if you're just cruising a lot. Another consideration that makes me about buying a used WRX.
It's just a waste... these engines don't fail if they are not stressed to these levels. I fucking hate 's and willing to die on that hill. Nothing 20% over stock should be allowed on public roads period. I don't want to be behind a POS golf R that blows a rod through a block while doing the 300ths test pull ala
That sort shit is just I know there are plenty of people that would enjoy a small bump... ala Dinan or something of the likes. But what GAYPR and all these Hamburger tunes have been doing is just a waste of cars/resources.
It annoys me how quickly the car community as a whole will blame liberals and vendors will start shouting from the rooftops that the end is nigh for the hobby in promotion of some flash sale. Hardly anyone in the community takes the time to reflect on how we got here or to look inward and assign some blame to ourselves. For decades, the community has made it a goal to defeat all emissions devices in the name of horsepower, regardless if the device's defeat actually increased horsepower. To this day, people will blindly assume that cutting the catalytic converters out of their cars will give them some bump in power, and by extension, freedom. For decades, vendors have gotten away with selling catless exhaust pipes and modified tunes by including an "offroad only" disclaimer and a wink. The entire approach to modifying vehicles that we have grown accustomed to is wholly irresponsible.
On the other side, the governments haven't made things any easier by setting regulations without even attempting to understand the nuances of internal combustion engines. This article perfectly exemplifies that by saying, "Note that the mere presence of non-conforming software is enough to fail. The inspection does not have to prove that the non-conforming software results in higher emissions levels." It really shouldn't matter if the software is approved by the governing bodies. What should matter is how many pollutants are being spewed from the tailpipe.
SEMA and the rest of the industry keep touting this RPM Act as the savior of the hobby, but in reality, the text doesn't do much of anything other than tell lawmakers to leave racecars alone. That tells me that the ultimate plan is for everyone to go back to labeling their daily as a racecar and winking. I would love for both sides to come together and create some regulations that get the governing bodies to realize that a vehicle can still pass emissions without being 100% factory original and get the enthusiasts to be more responsible.
I think dieselgate fucked a lot up for the aftermarket. The .gov will never take the time to learn about ICE engines and what tuning actually does and that it can be done without impacting tailpipe emissions. But what they're by the fact that "software could detect emissions testing conditions and change tailpipe emissions from real world" as alleged in dieselgate. So it's easier to just blanket on any sort of aftermarket tuning, so they can just focus on policing OEMs instead.
Tuning is soon going to be a thing of the past, more for cybersecurity than emissions. Have you read the about not being able to tune C8's? It's because it's using a new interconnected electrical architecture that means cracking the ECU could crack the entire vehicle. To combat that, the entire system is uncrackable. Sure, people will figure it out eventually, but opening up a tiny window for aftermarket companies could really mean a backdoor for bad people to hack and take control of vehicles without the driver/owner knowing. That's really bad and GM is really concerned about it. The security protocols in place on that car are immense, and will become the standard as more autonomous driving features become commonplace and increase the risk of from hacking.
OEM vehicle performance is reaching the point where moran OEM engineers aren't leaving a whole lot on the table anymore. Advanced engine controls that can better control all aspects of engine performance mean it's easier/safer to factory tune engines closer to the edge. Hell, I remember talking to the dude that tuned my C5 and he claimed that (then new) LT1s had minimal opportunity for tuning improvement on a stock car unlike previous vehicles.
I feel like 2.9 0-60 is fast enough.
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm
Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm
Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
It annoys me how quickly the car community as a whole will blame liberals and vendors will start shouting from the rooftops that the end is nigh for the hobby in promotion of some flash sale. Hardly anyone in the community takes the time to reflect on how we got here or to look inward and assign some blame to ourselves. For decades, the community has made it a goal to defeat all emissions devices in the name of horsepower, regardless if the device's defeat actually increased horsepower. To this day, people will blindly assume that cutting the catalytic converters out of their cars will give them some bump in power, and by extension, freedom. For decades, vendors have gotten away with selling catless exhaust pipes and modified tunes by including an "offroad only" disclaimer and a wink. The entire approach to modifying vehicles that we have grown accustomed to is wholly irresponsible.
On the other side, the governments haven't made things any easier by setting regulations without even attempting to understand the nuances of internal combustion engines. This article perfectly exemplifies that by saying, "Note that the mere presence of non-conforming software is enough to fail. The inspection does not have to prove that the non-conforming software results in higher emissions levels." It really shouldn't matter if the software is approved by the governing bodies. What should matter is how many pollutants are being spewed from the tailpipe.
SEMA and the rest of the industry keep touting this RPM Act as the savior of the hobby, but in reality, the text doesn't do much of anything other than tell lawmakers to leave racecars alone. That tells me that the ultimate plan is for everyone to go back to labeling their daily as a racecar and winking. I would love for both sides to come together and create some regulations that get the governing bodies to realize that a vehicle can still pass emissions without being 100% factory original and get the enthusiasts to be more responsible.
I think dieselgate fucked a lot up for the aftermarket. The .gov will never take the time to learn about ICE engines and what tuning actually does and that it can be done without impacting tailpipe emissions. But what they're by the fact that "software could detect emissions testing conditions and change tailpipe emissions from real world" as alleged in dieselgate. So it's easier to just blanket on any sort of aftermarket tuning, so they can just focus on policing OEMs instead.
Tuning is soon going to be a thing of the past, more for cybersecurity than emissions. Have you read the about not being able to tune C8's? It's because it's using a new interconnected electrical architecture that means cracking the ECU could crack the entire vehicle. To combat that, the entire system is uncrackable. Sure, people will figure it out eventually, but opening up a tiny window for aftermarket companies could really mean a backdoor for bad people to hack and take control of vehicles without the driver/owner knowing. That's really bad and GM is really concerned about it. The security protocols in place on that car are immense, and will become the standard as more autonomous driving features become commonplace and increase the risk of from hacking.
OEM vehicle performance is reaching the point where moran OEM engineers aren't leaving a whole lot on the table anymore. Advanced engine controls that can better control all aspects of engine performance mean it's easier/safer to factory tune engines closer to the edge. Hell, I remember talking to the dude that tuned my C5 and he claimed that (then new) LT1s had minimal opportunity for tuning improvement on a stock car unlike previous vehicles.
The C8s are getting modified, though. I believe people are just buying Holley PCMs and piggybacking off the factory computer so that they run in tandem. So, I don't think tuning is going to be a thing of the past any time soon, especially since Holley and FiTech have been continuously improving their standalone offerings. It's to the point where it almost doesn't make sense to do a standalone harness and factory PCM in a swap application.
I know that the government isn't going to take the time to learn anything before passing regulations. I was just stating what they should do, and also venting my frustrations of being in the minority of enthusiasts who doesn't have a problem with running catalytic converters and tries to be as responsible as reasonably possible. I've been told I'm not a real car guy more times than I can count due to that stance.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:04 pm
I think dieselgate fucked a lot up for the aftermarket. The .gov will never take the time to learn about ICE engines and what tuning actually does and that it can be done without impacting tailpipe emissions. But what they're by the fact that "software could detect emissions testing conditions and change tailpipe emissions from real world" as alleged in dieselgate. So it's easier to just blanket on any sort of aftermarket tuning, so they can just focus on policing OEMs instead.
Tuning is soon going to be a thing of the past, more for cybersecurity than emissions. Have you read the about not being able to tune C8's? It's because it's using a new interconnected electrical architecture that means cracking the ECU could crack the entire vehicle. To combat that, the entire system is uncrackable. Sure, people will figure it out eventually, but opening up a tiny window for aftermarket companies could really mean a backdoor for bad people to hack and take control of vehicles without the driver/owner knowing. That's really bad and GM is really concerned about it. The security protocols in place on that car are immense, and will become the standard as more autonomous driving features become commonplace and increase the risk of from hacking.
OEM vehicle performance is reaching the point where moran OEM engineers aren't leaving a whole lot on the table anymore. Advanced engine controls that can better control all aspects of engine performance mean it's easier/safer to factory tune engines closer to the edge. Hell, I remember talking to the dude that tuned my C5 and he claimed that (then new) LT1s had minimal opportunity for tuning improvement on a stock car unlike previous vehicles.
I feel like 2.9 0-60 is fast enough.
"Why do you want to climb Mt. Everest?"
"Because it's there."
As the only published author in a well-known motorcycle publication in the room...
4zilch wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:26 pm
I'm cool with people tuning their car and blowing them up. I dont care if some high school vape bro buys a tuned car and subsequently it.
I mostly get annoyed by bros who straight pipe their coyotes or anyone with anti-lag tunes.
But above all, I get annoyed people in the car community who can't fucking drive, and/or are unwilling to share the road with those who can.
4zilch wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:26 pm
I'm cool with people tuning their car and blowing them up. I dont care if some high school vape bro buys a tuned car and subsequently it.
I mostly get annoyed by bros who straight pipe their coyotes or anyone with anti-lag tunes.
But above all, I get annoyed people in the car community who can't fucking drive, and/or are unwilling to share the road with those who can.
I hate straight piped coyotes or anything from the FCA family doing the same shit. It is the 5.slow of our current generation as far as menace is concerned.
Ya'll see this?
Go to 12;15
Last edited by max225 on Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:04 pm
I think dieselgate fucked a lot up for the aftermarket. The .gov will never take the time to learn about ICE engines and what tuning actually does and that it can be done without impacting tailpipe emissions. But what they're by the fact that "software could detect emissions testing conditions and change tailpipe emissions from real world" as alleged in dieselgate. So it's easier to just blanket on any sort of aftermarket tuning, so they can just focus on policing OEMs instead.
Tuning is soon going to be a thing of the past, more for cybersecurity than emissions. Have you read the about not being able to tune C8's? It's because it's using a new interconnected electrical architecture that means cracking the ECU could crack the entire vehicle. To combat that, the entire system is uncrackable. Sure, people will figure it out eventually, but opening up a tiny window for aftermarket companies could really mean a backdoor for bad people to hack and take control of vehicles without the driver/owner knowing. That's really bad and GM is really concerned about it. The security protocols in place on that car are immense, and will become the standard as more autonomous driving features become commonplace and increase the risk of from hacking.
OEM vehicle performance is reaching the point where moran OEM engineers aren't leaving a whole lot on the table anymore. Advanced engine controls that can better control all aspects of engine performance mean it's easier/safer to factory tune engines closer to the edge. Hell, I remember talking to the dude that tuned my C5 and he claimed that (then new) LT1s had minimal opportunity for tuning improvement on a stock car unlike previous vehicles.
The C8s are getting modified, though. I believe people are just buying Holley PCMs and piggybacking off the factory computer so that they run in tandem. So, I don't think tuning is going to be a thing of the past any time soon, especially since Holley and FiTech have been continuously improving their standalone offerings. It's to the point where it almost doesn't make sense to do a standalone harness and factory PCM in a swap application.
I know that the government isn't going to take the time to learn anything before passing regulations. I was just stating what they should do, and also venting my frustrations of being in the minority of enthusiasts who doesn't have a problem with running catalytic converters and tries to be as responsible as reasonably possible. I've been told I'm not a real car guy more times than I can count due to that stance.
Piggybacking stand alone stuff is different, I'm just talking about the days of plugging a laptop into the ODBII port and re-writing the factory cals...those days are numbered. I actually find the standalone stuff fascinating, and the progress its made for enabling engine swaps and whatnot is It makes me want to build a car again because it would be much easier than before.
I bought long tube headers for my C5 with cats. I took it to tuners who said I was "dumb" leaving "an easy 15-20whp on the table". I'll never forget the call I got from my last dyno tuner when it turned 440 whp...he was in shock. "Guess those cats aren't much of a restriction huh?" he didn't respond. You can have fun and be kind to the planet, cats haven't been super restrictive for decades, especially aftermarket.
4zilch wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:26 pm
I'm cool with people tuning their car and blowing them up. I dont care if some high school vape bro buys a tuned car and subsequently it.
I mostly get annoyed by bros who straight pipe their coyotes or anyone with anti-lag tunes.
But above all, I get annoyed people in the car community who can't fucking drive, and/or are unwilling to share the road with those who can.
I hate straight piped coyotes or anything from the FCA family doing the same shit. It is the 5.slow of our current generation as far as menace is concerned.
max225 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 pm
I hate straight piped coyotes or anything from the FCA family doing the same shit. It is the 5.slow of our current generation as far as menace is concerned.
Ya'll see this?
Go to 12;15
What the shit?
Yea dude... cheaper parts of cali are no go zones. Just complete mad-max armageddon.
The C8s are getting modified, though. I believe people are just buying Holley PCMs and piggybacking off the factory computer so that they run in tandem. So, I don't think tuning is going to be a thing of the past any time soon, especially since Holley and FiTech have been continuously improving their standalone offerings. It's to the point where it almost doesn't make sense to do a standalone harness and factory PCM in a swap application.
I know that the government isn't going to take the time to learn anything before passing regulations. I was just stating what they should do, and also venting my frustrations of being in the minority of enthusiasts who doesn't have a problem with running catalytic converters and tries to be as responsible as reasonably possible. I've been told I'm not a real car guy more times than I can count due to that stance.
Piggybacking stand alone stuff is different, I'm just talking about the days of plugging a laptop into the ODBII port and re-writing the factory cals...those days are numbered. I actually find the standalone stuff fascinating, and the progress its made for enabling engine swaps and whatnot is It makes me want to build a car again because it would be much easier than before.
I bought long tube headers for my C5 with cats. I took it to tuners who said I was "dumb" leaving "an easy 15-20whp on the table". I'll never forget the call I got from my last dyno tuner when it turned 440 whp...he was in shock. "Guess those cats aren't much of a restriction huh?" he didn't respond. You can have fun and be kind to the planet, cats haven't been super restrictive for decades, especially aftermarket.
I have a stupid desire to swap a fox body… having a garage is going to let me do dumb shit.
It annoys me how quickly the car community as a whole will blame liberals and vendors will start shouting from the rooftops that the end is nigh for the hobby in promotion of some flash sale. Hardly anyone in the community takes the time to reflect on how we got here or to look inward and assign some blame to ourselves. For decades, the community has made it a goal to defeat all emissions devices in the name of horsepower, regardless if the device's defeat actually increased horsepower. To this day, people will blindly assume that cutting the catalytic converters out of their cars will give them some bump in power, and by extension, freedom. For decades, vendors have gotten away with selling catless exhaust pipes and modified tunes by including an "offroad only" disclaimer and a wink. The entire approach to modifying vehicles that we have grown accustomed to is wholly irresponsible.
On the other side, the governments haven't made things any easier by setting regulations without even attempting to understand the nuances of internal combustion engines. This article perfectly exemplifies that by saying, "Note that the mere presence of non-conforming software is enough to fail. The inspection does not have to prove that the non-conforming software results in higher emissions levels." It really shouldn't matter if the software is approved by the governing bodies. What should matter is how many pollutants are being spewed from the tailpipe.
SEMA and the rest of the industry keep touting this RPM Act as the savior of the hobby, but in reality, the text doesn't do much of anything other than tell lawmakers to leave racecars alone. That tells me that the ultimate plan is for everyone to go back to labeling their daily as a racecar and winking. I would love for both sides to come together and create some regulations that get the governing bodies to realize that a vehicle can still pass emissions without being 100% factory original and get the enthusiasts to be more responsible.
Yep. In addition I hate the fact that some tunes a 210hp to 350.. No way in hell will it not blow up and destroy significant components down the line... and some poor shmuk will buy it 3 year down the road and be stuck with 15k engine replacement bill. That's not ok from many perspective in my book. It is , and stupid.
No different than revving an engine to 8000rpm daily.
Yep. Too many people just chase a dyno number without realizing the ramifications of achieving that figure. Some schmuck on the interwebz broadcasts how he just turned up the boost and made some insane horsepower number, and for only a couple hundred bucks, you can make that power, too! Nevermind that combustion chamber and exhaust temps have been drastically accelerated, cylinder pressures are through the roof and, as a result, excessive loads have been placed on the whole bottom end. It's like all of the LS "tooners" who just removed torque management from the transmission calibrations entirely, maxed the line pressure, and then bitched about GM putting glass transmissions behind their engines.
Making matters even worse, especially in the LS world, you have all of these magazine articles doing engine dyno hero runs advertising 1000+ horsepower from a junkyard motor. Now, people who haven't even driven something with 400 crank HP think they can boost their shit to 1000 wheel horsepower and everything will be hunky-dory.
max225 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 pm
I hate straight piped coyotes or anything from the FCA family doing the same shit. It is the 5.slow of our current generation as far as menace is concerned.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:52 pm
Piggybacking stand alone stuff is different, I'm just talking about the days of plugging a laptop into the ODBII port and re-writing the factory cals...those days are numbered. I actually find the standalone stuff fascinating, and the progress its made for enabling engine swaps and whatnot is It makes me want to build a car again because it would be much easier than before.
I bought long tube headers for my C5 with cats. I took it to tuners who said I was "dumb" leaving "an easy 15-20whp on the table". I'll never forget the call I got from my last dyno tuner when it turned 440 whp...he was in shock. "Guess those cats aren't much of a restriction huh?" he didn't respond. You can have fun and be kind to the planet, cats haven't been super restrictive for decades, especially aftermarket.
I have a stupid desire to swap a fox body… having a garage is going to let me do dumb shit.
Do you watch hotrod garage? They swapped a Coyote into later 4th gen, and it looks awesome and turned out pretty Those things are dirt cheap compared to fox bodies now, and probably handle better out of the box with just as much aftermarket support. That would be
I also still randomly want a 4th gen f-body, even though I know they suck.
I have a stupid desire to swap a fox body… having a garage is going to let me do dumb shit.
Do you watch hotrod garage? They swapped a Coyote into later 4th gen, and it looks awesome and turned out pretty Those things are dirt cheap compared to fox bodies now, and probably handle better out of the box with just as much aftermarket support. That would be
I also still randomly want a 4th gen f-body, even though I know they suck.
I don’t watch, yet. I shall check it out!
4th gen sounds interesting too… then again just buying something newer would make more sense but less cool.
What I should really buy is a terminator, but those are
Yep. In addition I hate the fact that some tunes a 210hp to 350.. No way in hell will it not blow up and destroy significant components down the line... and some poor shmuk will buy it 3 year down the road and be stuck with 15k engine replacement bill. That's not ok from many perspective in my book. It is , and stupid.
No different than revving an engine to 8000rpm daily.
Yep. Too many people just chase a dyno number without realizing the ramifications of achieving that figure. Some schmuck on the interwebz broadcasts how he just turned up the boost and made some insane horsepower number, and for only a couple hundred bucks, you can make that power, too! Nevermind that combustion chamber and exhaust temps have been drastically accelerated, cylinder pressures are through the roof and, as a result, excessive loads have been placed on the whole bottom end. It's like all of the LS "tooners" who just removed torque management from the transmission calibrations entirely, maxed the line pressure, and then bitched about GM putting glass transmissions behind their engines.
Making matters even worse, especially in the LS world, you have all of these magazine articles doing engine dyno hero runs advertising 1000+ horsepower from a junkyard motor. Now, people who haven't even driven something with 400 crank HP think they can boost their shit to 1000 wheel horsepower and everything will be hunky-dory.
Those articles always make me An engine dyno test means almost nothing on the street when you add in all the variables taken out in a dyno cell. I've always valued drivability over max HP, and people need to experience a max-hp thing to appreciate the importance of drivability.
Detroit wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:05 pm
Do you watch hotrod garage? They swapped a Coyote into later 4th gen, and it looks awesome and turned out pretty Those things are dirt cheap compared to fox bodies now, and probably handle better out of the box with just as much aftermarket support. That would be
I also still randomly want a 4th gen f-body, even though I know they suck.
I don’t watch, yet. I shall check it out!
4th gen sounds interesting too… then again just buying something newer would make more sense but less cool.
What I should really buy is a terminator, but those are
Build an ExTerminator with a coyote. Ya, ya IRS, but and probably cheaper.
I do love fox bodies, but it's just crazy what those values have done.
The C8s are getting modified, though. I believe people are just buying Holley PCMs and piggybacking off the factory computer so that they run in tandem. So, I don't think tuning is going to be a thing of the past any time soon, especially since Holley and FiTech have been continuously improving their standalone offerings. It's to the point where it almost doesn't make sense to do a standalone harness and factory PCM in a swap application.
I know that the government isn't going to take the time to learn anything before passing regulations. I was just stating what they should do, and also venting my frustrations of being in the minority of enthusiasts who doesn't have a problem with running catalytic converters and tries to be as responsible as reasonably possible. I've been told I'm not a real car guy more times than I can count due to that stance.
Piggybacking stand alone stuff is different, I'm just talking about the days of plugging a laptop into the ODBII port and re-writing the factory cals...those days are numbered. I actually find the standalone stuff fascinating, and the progress its made for enabling engine swaps and whatnot is It makes me want to build a car again because it would be much easier than before.
I bought long tube headers for my C5 with cats. I took it to tuners who said I was "dumb" leaving "an easy 15-20whp on the table". I'll never forget the call I got from my last dyno tuner when it turned 440 whp...he was in shock. "Guess those cats aren't much of a restriction huh?" he didn't respond. You can have fun and be kind to the planet, cats haven't been super restrictive for decades, especially aftermarket.
If those standalone systems were around when we bought the harness and computer for my dad's Impala, that is definitely the route we would have taken. The software is much more user-friendly than HP Tuners or EFI Live, and you don't have to buy credits for every damn car you connect to. What I would love to see is one of those companies offer a plug-in PCM that could replace the factory unit altogether and simply plugs into the factory harness. THAT would be a gamechanger for the older EFI stuff.
The other glorious thing about cats is that they act as a resonator and help fight exhaust drone.
tunes a 210hp to 350.. No way in hell will it not blow up and destroy significant components down the line... and some poor shmuk will buy it 3 year down the road and be stuck with 15k engine replacement bill. That's not ok from many perspective in my book. It is
, and stupid.
lot. Another consideration that makes me
about buying a used WRX.
levels. I fucking hate 
's and willing to die on that hill. Nothing 20% over stock should be allowed on public roads period. I don't want to be behind a POS golf R that blows a rod through a block while doing the 300ths test pull ala 
by the fact that "software could detect emissions testing conditions and change tailpipe emissions from real world" as alleged in dieselgate. So it's easier to just blanket 
on any sort of aftermarket tuning, so they can just focus on policing OEMs instead. 
from hacking. 
It makes me want to build a car again because it would be much easier than before. 
Those things are dirt cheap compared to fox bodies now, and probably handle better out of the box with just as much aftermarket support. That would be 
An engine dyno test means almost nothing on the street when you add in all the variables taken out in a dyno cell. I've always valued drivability over max HP, and people need to experience a max-hp thing to appreciate the importance of drivability.
and probably cheaper.