Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:49 am
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:35 am The weight might surprise some people. There's been a lot of progress made in material engineering and lightweighting since the 370 was engineered/produced. And to keep a sports car viable, FE is critically important and weight is a big part of that.

It might also be a heffer, so who knows.
Nissan spent so much money trying to lighten the last gen Z also... I am honestly puzzled why it was that heavy.
The 370Z features a front aluminum subframe, aluminum-alloy engine cradle, aluminum door panels, an all-aluminum hood, and an aluminum hatch
The 370Z uses a front double wishbone suspension, with forged aluminum control arms and steering knuckle. The rear multi-link suspension uses a forged aluminum upper control arm, lower arm and radius rod, the toe control rod is steel and wheel carrier assembly is aluminum
Weird. That is puzzling as it's noticeably smaller than a Corvette and yet hundreds of pounds heavier, despite two less cylinders. I compare them to Corvettes a lot as I feel they are the closest thing, especially when used they kind of fall in the same range. A 370Z is basically just a C5 less the annoying scrape and with a way better interior and brakes (depending on trim).
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D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:53 am
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:35 am The weight might surprise some people. There's been a lot of progress made in material engineering and lightweighting since the 370 was engineered/produced. And to keep a sports car viable, FE is critically important and weight is a big part of that.

It might also be a heffer, so who knows.
It will be cool to learn more. I think bringing it in sub Supra would be :impressive: and make it a pretty unique offering. $40K, 400 hp and 3200 pounds with :manuel: would be unlike anything else.

If you really want the ultimate in performance for the money, Johnny is right, the Camaro kinda rules (Mustangs too). For some people though, a hatchback plus a smaller/lighter car makes a big difference.

This is why I prefer the Corvette to the Mustang/Camaro - it is effectively a more usable car for daily other than scrape, while also offering better fuel economy, lower consumables use on track, and is more fun on small back roads because, while still large, it isn't THAT large.

If the Z can basically be a modern C6/C7 Corvette for $40K,I think it will do fine. I personally like the look of it more and would rather "be seen" in a Z than a 'vette, not that I care that much.
So much :dat:

I would have bought a Camaro if it was a hatchback. But being less livable than a vette was a :nope: Nissan and Subaru/Toyota have a solid opportunity to capture an abandoned section of the market with livable/usable RWD sports cars that are still somewhat attainable (start sub-$40k)
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I've seen lots of different results for the Z. My friend's base + sport pack 370 was just over 3300lbs with full tank on corner balancing scales, but he didn't have the subwoofer or anything like that.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 am
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:51 am
What's the body and structure made out of? There's still opportunity there with higher strength (and thus thinner/lighter weight), but that's pricey. Will be interesting to see.
chinese steel, same as everything else. But I am just sharing the info, and how much went into the last gen Z. I really REALLY liked that car.
To quote myself. The BRZ for ex has less aluminum in both the suspension and body, and is lighter still. Wonder why.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:55 am
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:49 am

Nissan spent so much money trying to lighten the last gen Z also... I am honestly puzzled why it was that heavy.



Weird. That is puzzling as it's noticeably smaller than a Corvette and yet hundreds of pounds heavier, despite two less cylinders. I compare them to Corvettes a lot as I feel they are the closest thing, especially when used they kind of fall in the same range. A 370Z is basically just a C5 less the annoying scrape and with a way better interior and brakes (depending on trim).
Vette has a much more svelte body structure, especially with the structural torque tube and plastic body panels.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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CaleDeRoo wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 am I've seen lots of different results for the Z. My friend's base + sport pack 370 was just over 3300lbs with full tank on corner balancing scales, but he didn't have the subwoofer or anything like that.
Yep that sounds about right. Subwoofer is 5lbs tops. They basically topped out at low 3400 for a nisbro with auto
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 am
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 am
chinese steel, same as everything else. But I am just sharing the info, and how much went into the last gen Z. I really REALLY liked that car.
To quote myself. The BRZ for ex has less aluminum in both the suspension and body, and is lighter still. Wonder why.
It is built out of the shittiest, thinnest materials and it is physically smaller. I ride in one fairly regularly and you can dent the car easily with your index finger. Everything inside is super flimsy feeling, like take-out container compared to another car's dishwasher safe plate. It certainly worked to make it lighter, but it is evident in the feel of every piece of those cars.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:55 am
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:49 am

Nissan spent so much money trying to lighten the last gen Z also... I am honestly puzzled why it was that heavy.



Weird. That is puzzling as it's noticeably smaller than a Corvette and yet hundreds of pounds heavier, despite two less cylinders. I compare them to Corvettes a lot as I feel they are the closest thing, especially when used they kind of fall in the same range. A 370Z is basically just a C5 less the annoying scrape and with a way better interior and brakes (depending on trim).
It really isn't that much smaller than a corvette. Also corvette is made of plastic. Let's not forget that. And how is it "hundreds of pounds heavier" they are at a weight parity. Unless you're talking Z06.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 am
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 am
chinese steel, same as everything else. But I am just sharing the info, and how much went into the last gen Z. I really REALLY liked that car.
To quote myself. The BRZ for ex has less aluminum in both the suspension and body, and is lighter still. Wonder why.
I really think it has a lot to do with the underlying body structure. There's been a lot of advancement in high strength steel tech and widespread use that's reduced the cost and allowed for wider adaptation to drive down weight.

BRZ is also relatively low powered by comparison, which allows for smaller/lighter driveline and chassis components.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:58 am
D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:55 am

Weird. That is puzzling as it's noticeably smaller than a Corvette and yet hundreds of pounds heavier, despite two less cylinders. I compare them to Corvettes a lot as I feel they are the closest thing, especially when used they kind of fall in the same range. A 370Z is basically just a C5 less the annoying scrape and with a way better interior and brakes (depending on trim).
Vette has a much more svelte body structure, especially with the structural torque tube and plastic body panels.
:notwrong: it is more of a ground up super car/racecar. There are things in the 370 that are better though, interior, brakes, shifter quality, approach angles. They drive really similar though, the dynamics of my C5 versus a 370Z are almost the same, power also feels about the same.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:59 am
D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:55 am

Weird. That is puzzling as it's noticeably smaller than a Corvette and yet hundreds of pounds heavier, despite two less cylinders. I compare them to Corvettes a lot as I feel they are the closest thing, especially when used they kind of fall in the same range. A 370Z is basically just a C5 less the annoying scrape and with a way better interior and brakes (depending on trim).
It really isn't that much smaller than a corvette. Also corvette is made of plastic. Let's not forget that. And how is it "hundreds of pounds heavier" they are at a weight parity. Unless you're talking Z06.
C5s are like 3100-3250. The C5 is also significantly more roomy inside.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:00 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 am

To quote myself. The BRZ for ex has less aluminum in both the suspension and body, and is lighter still. Wonder why.
I really think it has a lot to do with the underlying body structure. There's been a lot of advancement in high strength steel tech and widespread use that's reduced the cost and allowed for wider adaptation to drive down weight.

BRZ is also relatively low powered by comparison, which allows for smaller/lighter driveline and chassis components.
Yea the Z rode on 19"s and had ginormous brakes. That by itself is probably 100 lbs over a BRZ, I would guess the engine + trans+driveline is another 150... so i guess here we go.

Z has a 19 gallon gas tank which is quite :impressive: in todays world of baby dick gas tanks.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:03 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:00 pm
I really think it has a lot to do with the underlying body structure. There's been a lot of advancement in high strength steel tech and widespread use that's reduced the cost and allowed for wider adaptation to drive down weight.

BRZ is also relatively low powered by comparison, which allows for smaller/lighter driveline and chassis components.
Yea the Z rode on 19"s and had ginormous brakes. That by itself is probably 100 lbs over a BRZ, I would guess the engine + trans+driveline is another 150... so i guess here we go.

Z has a 19 gallon gas tank which is quite :impressive: in todays world of baby dick gas tanks.
One could argue that those weight trade-offs are worth it for better performance and livability?
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:02 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:59 am

It really isn't that much smaller than a corvette. Also corvette is made of plastic. Let's not forget that. And how is it "hundreds of pounds heavier" they are at a weight parity. Unless you're talking Z06.
C5s are like 3100-3250. The C5 is also significantly more roomy inside.
I love the roominess of the C5. C7's feel so cramped by comparison.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:02 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:59 am

It really isn't that much smaller than a corvette. Also corvette is made of plastic. Let's not forget that. And how is it "hundreds of pounds heavier" they are at a weight parity. Unless you're talking Z06.
C5s are like 3100-3250. The C5 is also significantly more roomy inside.
Z is around 3280-3420 IIRC. They are nearly the same, but a Z06 to a loaded auto nismo would be 250lbs. You can have certain trims that are pretty much equal.

I don't know about roomy inside... They felt quite similar to me. The C5 does have a significantly bigger hatch though. But it features no behind seats storage unlike the Z.
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max225 wrote:
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:00 pm I really think it has a lot to do with the underlying body structure. There's been a lot of advancement in high strength steel tech and widespread use that's reduced the cost and allowed for wider adaptation to drive down weight.

BRZ is also relatively low powered by comparison, which allows for smaller/lighter driveline and chassis components.
Yea the Z rode on 19"s and had ginormous brakes. That by itself is probably 100 lbs over a BRZ, I would guess the engine + trans+driveline is another 150... so i guess here we go.

Z has a 19 gallon gas tank which is quite :impressive: in todays world of baby dick gas tanks.
The 86 engine is actually very heavy for what it is, but the rest of the drivetrain is probably lighter than the Z. The suspension and subframes are all shitty heavy pieces too, all to keep the price under $30k. It's :impressive: that the car is as good as it is, since it's largely just a bunch of cheap parts bin shit.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:15 pm
max225 wrote:
Yea the Z rode on 19"s and had ginormous brakes. That by itself is probably 100 lbs over a BRZ, I would guess the engine + trans+driveline is another 150... so i guess here we go.

Z has a 19 gallon gas tank which is quite :impressive: in todays world of baby dick gas tanks.
The 86 engine is actually very heavy for what it is, but the rest of the drivetrain is probably lighter than the Z. The suspension and subframes are all shitty heavy pieces too, all to keep the price under $30k. It's :impressive: that the car is as good as it is, since it's largely just a bunch of cheap parts bin shit.
Its interesting because the 370z was technically sub 30k as well but it features considerable engineering/material expenses pushed into it.

But then it falls short with dumb shit... like the road noise level were just :fullretard: like the lack of fender liners + sticky tires made you feel like you're literally in a fking tin can. Tiny rocks would bounce metallic noises through the entire interior. Like... it may be what... 300 grams? to add wheel liners.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:20 pm
troyguitar wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:15 pm

The 86 engine is actually very heavy for what it is, but the rest of the drivetrain is probably lighter than the Z. The suspension and subframes are all shitty heavy pieces too, all to keep the price under $30k. It's :impressive: that the car is as good as it is, since it's largely just a bunch of cheap parts bin shit.
Its interesting because the 370z was technically sub 30k as well but it features considerable engineering/material expenses pushed into it.

But then it falls short with dumb shit... like the road noise level were just :fullretard: like the lack of fender liners + sticky tires made you feel like you're literally in a fking tin can. Tiny rocks would bounce metallic noises through the entire interior. Like... it may be what... 300 grams? to add wheel liners.
There's always trade-offs in vehicle development. Gotta draw the line somewhere in variable cost and CAPEX. I could see the development team saying performance is more important than NVH, so do that. There's also a really good chance that they had the NVH stuff in the plan, but stripped it out for cost savings or something. The stuff I'm debating with finance and program engineering to remove to hit cost targets right now are absolutely :fullretard: Just trying to keep the vehicle program afloat can sometimes result in really difficult and often stupid decisions.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 am
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:51 am
What's the body and structure made out of? There's still opportunity there with higher strength (and thus thinner/lighter weight), but that's pricey. Will be interesting to see.
chinese steel, same as everything else. But I am just sharing the info, and how much went into the last gen Z. I really REALLY liked that car.
And yet.....
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 am
chinese steel, same as everything else. But I am just sharing the info, and how much went into the last gen Z. I really REALLY liked that car.
And yet.....
:plac: finds a way
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:48 pm
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 pm

And yet.....
:plac: finds a way
2.5 BMWs later.
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 am
chinese steel, same as everything else. But I am just sharing the info, and how much went into the last gen Z. I really REALLY liked that car.
And yet.....
It was a bad commuter. Small, low, giant wheels and unbearable road noises I bought the car thinking I was going to move to sf and it’ll be a weekender.

I since got a job in the burbs etc. things change breh.
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max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:11 pm
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 pm

And yet.....
It was a bad commuter. Small, low, giant wheels and unbearable road noises I bought the car thinking I was going to move to sf and it’ll be a weekender.

I since got a job in the burbs etc. things change breh.
I have a set of howling Toyos on the Tahoe that are not even close to being replaced yet. First set was A-1 these guys started the wubba wubba after like 12K miles. I play a lot of loud music. I am Z curious I dug that car.
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:18 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:11 pm
It was a bad commuter. Small, low, giant wheels and unbearable road noises I bought the car thinking I was going to move to sf and it’ll be a weekender.

I since got a job in the burbs etc. things change breh.
I have a set of howling Toyos on the Tahoe that are not even close to being replaced yet. First set was A-1 these guys started the wubba wubba after like 12K miles. I play a lot of loud music. I am Z curious I dug that car.
I think it is a wonderful machine. Just a much more quality/put together C5. Imo. It lacks only the V8 noises but that v6 sounds darn good imo.
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I wish I was more interested in Japanese sports cars...I just always feel like a giant driving them. There aren't many 6'5" Japanese people. BRZ is the most comfortable I've found, 370 is second, but still feels cramped.

That's where the Germans shine for me personally. The room in a MINI is :mindblown: BMWs always seem to fit me right too.
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