It's Not Easy Being (a darker shade of) Green

[wap]

Also, Pinto ---

That's what is waiting for us post CORONA, because everyone will need a bail out and you gotta get that cheap cheap car bruh.... can't afford more than 10k no more... no jeb, which is exactly what happened here from Corona to that.

New cars won't from a tap on the rear bumper.

[troyguitar]

Problem is, vehicles are too expensive to build to be "cheap" anymore. With all the mandated (and customer demanded) tech...it's getting increasingly difficult to build a cheap vehicle.

I think we're quickly reaching the point (and we might have already passed it) where vehicles are too expensive for people to "afford". There's outliers like the Civic and Corolla and whatnot...but those aren't hugely profitable, and many OEMs don't even have options to profitably compete in volume.

That said, the Dodge Journey continues to sell well because of how cheap it is. Same with the Jeep Compass. Mediocre vehicles at best, but like the Pinto, it might become our future.

I mean my car is all cheap parts bin stuff. It's basically an Impreza without AWD.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Problem is, vehicles are too expensive to build to be "cheap" anymore. With all the mandated (and customer demanded) tech...it's getting increasingly difficult to build a cheap vehicle.

I think we're quickly reaching the point (and we might have already passed it) where vehicles are too expensive for people to "afford". There's outliers like the Civic and Corolla and whatnot...but those aren't hugely profitable, and many OEMs don't even have options to profitably compete in volume.

That said, the Dodge Journey continues to sell well because of how cheap it is. Same with the Jeep Compass. Mediocre vehicles at best, but like the Pinto, it might become our future.

I mean my car is all cheap parts bin stuff. It's basically an Impreza without AWD.

True. The variable cost to build each one is probably pretty cheap, but the CAPEX it took to develop its unique platform may or may not have even been paid off yet. A new platform is a 10 figure number at minimum. I know that sounds stupid and nonsensical, but those are the numbers from safety testing, materials development, industrialization, on and on and on. It's why Toyota and Subaru worked together to split the cost, but it's hard to say if they made their investment back or not.

Now factor in all the shit the .gov and buyers want in the things, and both investment and variable cost go through the roof. OEMs are trying to spread that investment over as much volume as possible, and volume tends to translate to mediocrity eventually.

HOPEFULLY Toyota and Subaru recognize that the platform underpinning your car is pretty fucking great and it wouldn't require a ton of investment to keep it modern feeling. Challenge will be convincing people to continue buying them.

[goIftdibrad]

I mean my car is all cheap parts bin stuff. It's basically an Impreza without AWD.

True. The variable cost to build each one is probably pretty cheap, but the CAPEX it took to develop its unique platform may or may not have even been paid off yet. A new platform is a 10 figure number at minimum. I know that sounds stupid and nonsensical, but those are the numbers from safety testing, materials development, industrialization, on and on and on. It's why Toyota and Subaru worked together to split the cost, but it's hard to say if they made their investment back or not.

Now factor in all the shit the .gov and buyers want in the things, and both investment and variable cost go through the roof. OEMs are trying to spread that investment over as much volume as possible, and volume tends to translate to mediocrity eventually.

HOPEFULLY Toyota and Subaru recognize that the platform underpinning your car is pretty fucking great and it wouldn't require a ton of investment to keep it modern feeling. Challenge will be convincing people to continue buying them.

re: bold. Thats easy. update the engine. Turbo, smaller, higher revving. Or at least add a TRD/STI option to the lineup.

[Apex]

A TRD/STi turbo 86 would be pretty epic. The one downside it has, in the eyes of the masses, is power.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

A TRD/STi turbo 86 would be pretty epic. The one downside it has, in the eyes of the masses, is power.

Agreed.

There must be something about the platform or rear end or SOMETHING that can't easily take more power. That or they just don't want to spend the money for a new engine. That's also not cheap with federalization, emissions, etc costs.

[troyguitar]

I mean my car is all cheap parts bin stuff. It's basically an Impreza without AWD.

True. The variable cost to build each one is probably pretty cheap, but the CAPEX it took to develop its unique platform may or may not have even been paid off yet. A new platform is a 10 figure number at minimum. I know that sounds stupid and nonsensical, but those are the numbers from safety testing, materials development, industrialization, on and on and on. It's why Toyota and Subaru worked together to split the cost, but it's hard to say if they made their investment back or not.

Now factor in all the shit the .gov and buyers want in the things, and both investment and variable cost go through the roof. OEMs are trying to spread that investment over as much volume as possible, and volume tends to translate to mediocrity eventually.

HOPEFULLY Toyota and Subaru recognize that the platform underpinning your car is pretty fucking great and it wouldn't require a ton of investment to keep it modern feeling. Challenge will be convincing people to continue buying them.

With every OEM making AWD-capable platforms for even their cheapest cars/cuvs, it should be easy to make cheap RWD "sport" versions. Take the smallest AWD thing you make and ditch the FWD parts.

But that won't win drag races so it won't sell.

[Apex]

A TRD/STi turbo 86 would be pretty epic. The one downside it has, in the eyes of the masses, is power.

Agreed.

There must be something about the platform or rear end or SOMETHING that can't easily take more power. That or they just don't want to spend the money for a new engine. That's also not cheap with federalization, emissions, etc costs.

Do OEMs need to certify/federalize an engine they already have to put it in a different model?

[Johnny_P]

When do the SSRs go on? We need pics of this setup installed dammit.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Agreed.

There must be something about the platform or rear end or SOMETHING that can't easily take more power. That or they just don't want to spend the money for a new engine. That's also not cheap with federalization, emissions, etc costs.

Do OEMs need to certify/federalize an engine they already have to put it in a different model?

Yes. Every single powertrain and model combination needs to be certified/federalized. Lots of wasted money and effort for no real benefit. It's driving the mediocrity unfortunately.

[max225]

Mediocrity is driven by one world requirements snd everyone just buying fwd boxes on wheels because they are the most efficient package for the money.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Mediocrity is driven by one world requirements snd everyone just buying fwd boxes on wheels because they are the most efficient package for the money.

And it's only going to get worse post-apocalypse

[Apex]

Do OEMs need to certify/federalize an engine they already have to put it in a different model?

Yes. Every single powertrain and model combination needs to be certified/federalized. Lots of wasted money and effort for no real benefit. It's driving the mediocrity unfortunately.

That’s crazy. Makes sense why there is no turbo 86 yet, I can’t imagine the volume would support the capex for it.

[max225]

Mediocrity is driven by one world requirements snd everyone just buying fwd boxes on wheels because they are the most efficient package for the money.

And it's only going to get worse post-apocalypse

That’s exactly why I posted a pinto...
gravy days are done for now ...
A lot of us bitched about “lack of sports cars” etc, this is about to get good Bois.

Current cars have a lot of non essential shit that adds cost. Plenty of ways to cut that out.
No more leather
No more power shit
No more moonroofs
Smaller non turbo engines that are old and proven
Cheaper older transmissions
Cheaper thinner plastics inside
Shittier paint
Shittier lights
Smaller and shittier brakes
Smaller and thinner tires
Smaller footprints
Shittier infotainment no more royalties to google or Apple
Simpler dashboards
33k average price ... can be taken down to 20-25 and if the economy goes south that’s where we’re going

[D Griff]

I want an ND2. That is small and affordable-ish.

[troyguitar]

I want an ND2. That is small and affordable-ish.

If you want 2 cars, those are nice. Ever since going back to one car lyfe with the I am sold on it.

It might be different if I had a 3+ car garage in a nice climate near a good autox site, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

[D Griff]

I want an ND2. That is small and affordable-ish.

If you want 2 cars, those are nice. Ever since going back to one car lyfe with the I am sold on it.

It might be different if I had a 3+ car garage in a nice climate near a good autox site, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

Yeah, I have been thinking 1 car is the way to go also, mostly just because I haven't been driving any car... I have driven a grand total of maybe 1K miles in 2020. One track weekend in the C5 was a solid chunk of that, one weekend trip to Greenville in the Beemah, barely anything else.

[troyguitar]

I have about 1200 miles on my car in the 5 months since I bought it.

[max225]

If you want 2 cars, those are nice. Ever since going back to one car lyfe with the I am sold on it.

It might be different if I had a 3+ car garage in a nice climate near a good autox site, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

Yeah, I have been thinking 1 car is the way to go also, mostly just because I haven't been driving any car... I have driven a grand total of maybe 1K miles in 2020. One track weekend in the C5 was a solid chunk of that, one weekend trip to Greenville in the Beemah, barely anything else.

The number of cars depends on so many variables...
proximity to work
Members of household
Work on house needed
Off road Desires
Parking lot racing desires
Track desires

The more boxes you check the more cars you need

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Yeah, I have been thinking 1 car is the way to go also, mostly just because I haven't been driving any car... I have driven a grand total of maybe 1K miles in 2020. One track weekend in the C5 was a solid chunk of that, one weekend trip to Greenville in the Beemah, barely anything else.

The number of cars depends on so many variables...
proximity to work
Members of household
Work on house needed
Off road Desires
Parking lot racing desires
Track desires

The more boxes you check the more cars you need

[troyguitar]

And it's only going to get worse post-apocalypse

That’s exactly why I posted a pinto...
gravy days are done for now ...
A lot of us bitched about “lack of sports cars” etc, this is about to get good Bois.

Current cars have a lot of non essential shit that adds cost. Plenty of ways to cut that out.
No more leather
No more power shit
No more moonroofs
Smaller non turbo engines that are old and proven
Cheaper older transmissions
Cheaper thinner plastics inside
Shittier paint
Shittier lights
Smaller and shittier brakes
Smaller and thinner tires
Smaller footprints
Shittier infotainment no more royalties to google or Apple
Simpler dashboards
33k average price ... can be taken down to 20-25 and if the economy goes south that’s where we’re going

Your list just described my car.

[troyguitar]

When do the SSRs go on? We need pics of this setup installed dammit.

Missed this. Dunno. If I had a garage I'd do it soon. Working outside when it's cold and generally wet isn't high on my list. It'll be awhile before I get my center caps on a slow boat from Wuhan too.

[max225]

That’s exactly why I posted a pinto...
gravy days are done for now ...
A lot of us bitched about “lack of sports cars” etc, this is about to get good Bois.

Current cars have a lot of non essential shit that adds cost. Plenty of ways to cut that out.
No more leather
No more power shit
No more moonroofs
Smaller non turbo engines that are old and proven
Cheaper older transmissions
Cheaper thinner plastics inside
Shittier paint
Shittier lights
Smaller and shittier brakes
Smaller and thinner tires
Smaller footprints
Shittier infotainment no more royalties to google or Apple
Simpler dashboards
33k average price ... can be taken down to 20-25 and if the economy goes south that’s where we’re going

Your list just described my car.

Not really, the 86 has a shit ton of features...
LED head/tail/fog lights
Color/heated mirrors
Auto dimming mirror
Dual zone automatic AC
Smart key
MID display
Leather wheel
Heated seats
7" touchscreen
All that would be cut...

less weight

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Your list just described my car.

Not really, the 86 has a shit ton of features...
LED head/tail/fog lights
Color/heated mirrors
Auto dimming mirror
Dual zone automatic AC
Smart key
MID display
Leather wheel
Heated seats
7" touchscreen
All that would be cut...

less weight

Those are all "basic" features to customers these days. I don't think we'll be seeing that kind of stuff stripped out soon.

[troyguitar]

Everything on my car is a cheap version of that stuff. The HVAC controls look like they're from a 90s boombox, etc.

It's totally possible to make something good from a thoughtful combination of cheap shit.