Jeeponomics 101: Eternal tirekicking for the trigger-less Jeep

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max225
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Thu May 16, 2019 9:34 pm

Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm
max225 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 pm


Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
Interesting point on the power top... the fucking 4k upcharge is just frankly robbery, but I am actually really interested in that top/removable side windows, which are :neat:

The tossing around is due to side winds not solid axle. This thing drives straight as an arrow on most shitty roads etc. I have 0 qualms about ride quality in the jeep, as well as steering in normal situations.

All my qualms are around wind/windnoise and having not driven the rubicon yet, likely MPG on that model.

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Fri May 17, 2019 6:43 am

max225 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:34 pm
Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
Interesting point on the power top... the fucking 4k upcharge is just frankly robbery, but I am actually really interested in that top/removable side windows, which are :neat:

The tossing around is due to side winds not solid axle. This thing drives straight as an arrow on most shitty roads etc. I have 0 qualms about ride quality in the jeep, as well as steering in normal situations.

All my qualms are around wind/windnoise and having not driven the rubicon yet, likely MPG on that model.
My local dealer has a Sahara Manuel with 6spd and that top. Heavily discounted from what I remember. I think it had the 8.4 uconnect and LEDs too.

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Fri May 17, 2019 9:42 am

Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm
max225 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 pm


Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.

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Fri May 17, 2019 10:36 am

Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm
max225 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 pm


Well I am being 100% honest here, I loved 90% of the vehicle. To me that is a DD issue. Braking/steering/accelerating etc are all fine. Wind noise and being tossed around on the freeway during windy conditions wasn't. I don't remember anywhere near this issue on the suburban I took on the same route, so the whole "boxy" argument goes out the window.

Sub 65mph and no headwind the JL is completely fine, and the porta potty roof is MORE insulating than the one in my M3 which is REALLY WARM to the touch even through the insulation, the Jeep in 105F direct sun was luke warm.
There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
:howdareyou:

Leave the solid axle alone.

Also, it's due more to the slab-sided design. It's a big sail driving down the highway. :dealwithit:
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Fri May 17, 2019 11:14 am

max225 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:34 pm
Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
Interesting point on the power top... the fucking 4k upcharge is just frankly robbery, but I am actually really interested in that top/removable side windows, which are :neat:

The tossing around is due to side winds not solid axle. This thing drives straight as an arrow on most shitty roads etc. I have 0 qualms about ride quality in the jeep, as well as steering in normal situations.

All my qualms are around wind/windnoise and having not driven the rubicon yet, likely MPG on that model.
The aero is part of the issue, but the steering makes it worse. Recirculating ball steering just isn't precise, especially when compared to rack and pinion. Its why you have to make constant adjustments when driving down the highway, and it's worse in wind. I'm not talking out my ass, this is directly from engineering.

I wouldn't suggest replacing solid axles in all Wranglers, but it could make sense in upper trim level vehicles that are bought by people that want the look and experience, but wont see much off-road. It'd still be very capable off-road, so you're not giving up much, really. Those are the people complaining about the drive anyway. It would be perfect for Max for example.

The power top is epic. I experienced it recently, and couldn't believe how great it is. It's the final solution, but it costs way too much. That could be fixed with design and scale, which I'm going to push hard for.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

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Fri May 17, 2019 11:15 am

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:36 am
Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
:howdareyou:

Leave the solid axle alone.

Also, it's due more to the slab-sided design. It's a big sail driving down the highway. :dealwithit:
Hummer H3, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner (kind of) are all slab sided sails that didn't experience the same drivability issue. IFS has a huge role in it. There's a place for it in the lineup IMO.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

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Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am

Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:42 am
Detroit wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm

There's been a lot of complaints of wind noise. My boss (who hired me) recently started in his gig from Ram. He thinks the JL shouldn't have been marked salable with the current wind noise. The JL was such a quantum leap over the JK that he thinks nobody pushed hard enough to justify the higher price of the vehicle. It has to do with the removable roof. Drive one with the power top, and it's WAY quieter because it's not intended to be removed and can seal properly.

The being tossed around on the freeway is due to the archaic solid front axle. There's nothing you can do about that without going IFS, which would make people :triggered: I personally think IFS isn't the hindrance it once was and should be reconsidered. I may or may not get anywhere with that.
You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.
Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

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Fri May 17, 2019 11:20 am

Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am
Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:42 am


You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.
Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.
Sounds like it's something that could underpin the next Dogekota.
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Fri May 17, 2019 11:23 am

Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am
Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:42 am


You may as well design a new model if the Wrangler goes IFS. The mobs and pitchforks will be after you in a heartbeat if you get rid of that solid front axle.
Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.
Yep. IFS can be incredibly capable too, it has an ancient stigma that it is "worse". When in reality it's just more expensive to deal with.

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Fri May 17, 2019 12:04 pm

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:20 am
Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am

Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.
Sounds like it's something that could underpin the next Dogekota.
No idea. Jeep and Ram planning are completely separate. Which is good and bad.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

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Fri May 17, 2019 12:06 pm

Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:23 am
Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am

Right. It doesn't replace anything, just becomes a trim option for people that want better highway manners.
Yep. IFS can be incredibly capable too, it has an ancient stigma that it is "worse". When in reality it's just more expensive to deal with.
It's super capable. Wrangler is the last solid axle passenger vehicle in existence. Other vehicles are pretty danged capable but have far better highway manners. Yes, more expensive to deal with potentially, but for a large portion of buyers, that doesn't really matter.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

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Fri May 17, 2019 12:31 pm

Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:06 pm
Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:23 am


Yep. IFS can be incredibly capable too, it has an ancient stigma that it is "worse". When in reality it's just more expensive to deal with.
It's super capable. Wrangler is the last solid axle passenger vehicle in existence. Other vehicles are pretty danged capable but have far better highway manners. Yes, more expensive to deal with potentially, but for a large portion of buyers, that doesn't really matter.
In a market where niches are increasingly marginalized - it's good to play to a niche.

There are obviously a lot of people who will still pony up for a new live axle farm implement with modern tech, so keep making it until you can't.
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Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:31 pm
Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:06 pm

It's super capable. Wrangler is the last solid axle passenger vehicle in existence. Other vehicles are pretty danged capable but have far better highway manners. Yes, more expensive to deal with potentially, but for a large portion of buyers, that doesn't really matter.
In a market where niches are increasingly marginalized - it's good to play to a niche.

There are obviously a lot of people who will still pony up for a new live axle farm implement with modern tech, so keep making it until you can't.
Is it better for the product to go away because it's obsolete, or evolve and stay around?

With the prices where they're at, we're already getting market feedback that's they're too expensive and other vehicles make more sense forany buyers. It's only a matter of time before the Wrangler is too niche to sell in the volume it needs to.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

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Fri May 17, 2019 3:49 pm

Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm
Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:31 pm


In a market where niches are increasingly marginalized - it's good to play to a niche.

There are obviously a lot of people who will still pony up for a new live axle farm implement with modern tech, so keep making it until you can't.
Is it better for the product to go away because it's obsolete, or evolve and stay around?

With the prices where they're at, we're already getting market feedback that's they're too expensive and other vehicles make more sense forany buyers. It's only a matter of time before the Wrangler is too niche to sell in the volume it needs to.
It's way too expensive; I can't afford a new one, period (and I feel I'll soon be unable to afford anything new ever again the way vehicle costs are going up).

Back to the JL: Is it expensive as a result of demand, or as a result of cost to build? It's far better if it can stay around and evolve, but you need to remember that part of the Wrangler ethos is the live axle. It's a sacrifice many people are willing to live with for the image and the capability.
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Fri May 17, 2019 4:02 pm

Just built a 2-door Sport S.... and it hit $40k how I would ideally want it. :butwhy:

That $2k hit for the 8speed, ouch.

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Fri May 17, 2019 5:21 pm

Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:02 pm
Just built a 2-door Sport S.... and it hit $40k how I would ideally want it. :butwhy:

That $2k hit for the 8speed, ouch.
It's just silly.

I could see $1k for an auto - but $2k? :yikes:

What's the manual take rate on Wrangler, anyway? Make it a no-cost option for a manual instead.
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Fri May 17, 2019 5:22 pm

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:21 pm
Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:02 pm
Just built a 2-door Sport S.... and it hit $40k how I would ideally want it. :butwhy:

That $2k hit for the 8speed, ouch.
It's just silly.

I could see $1k for an auto - but $2k? :yikes:

What's the manual take rate on Wrangler, anyway? Make it a no-cost option for a manual instead.
:dat: all :dat:

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Fri May 17, 2019 5:34 pm

Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:15 am
Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:36 am


:howdareyou:

Leave the solid axle alone.

Also, it's due more to the slab-sided design. It's a big sail driving down the highway. :dealwithit:
Hummer H3, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner (kind of) are all slab sided sails that didn't experience the same drivability issue. IFS has a huge role in it. There's a place for it in the lineup IMO.

14" travel IFS with portal hubs breh. Problem solved. Oh wait. Go buy an amg g wagon.
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Fri May 17, 2019 6:47 pm

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:49 pm
Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm

Is it better for the product to go away because it's obsolete, or evolve and stay around?

With the prices where they're at, we're already getting market feedback that's they're too expensive and other vehicles make more sense forany buyers. It's only a matter of time before the Wrangler is too niche to sell in the volume it needs to.
It's way too expensive; I can't afford a new one, period (and I feel I'll soon be unable to afford anything new ever again the way vehicle costs are going up).

Back to the JL: Is it expensive as a result of demand, or as a result of cost to build? It's far better if it can stay around and evolve, but you need to remember that part of the Wrangler ethos is the live axle. It's a sacrifice many people are willing to live with for the image and the capability.
I'd say it is due to demand. The problem is that they, as well as other manufacturers, are pricing shit out of the reach of their consumer base. If I'm spending $40-$50K on an SUV, why am I going to select a Wrangler over a Grand Cherokee or an Alfa Stelvio? Because of its off-road abilities? Yeah, I'm not taking a $40-$50K vehicle through trails. At that price point, I expect comfort to be high and wind noise to be non-existent.

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Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Huckleberry wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:47 pm
Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:49 pm


It's way too expensive; I can't afford a new one, period (and I feel I'll soon be unable to afford anything new ever again the way vehicle costs are going up).

Back to the JL: Is it expensive as a result of demand, or as a result of cost to build? It's far better if it can stay around and evolve, but you need to remember that part of the Wrangler ethos is the live axle. It's a sacrifice many people are willing to live with for the image and the capability.
I'd say it is due to demand. The problem is that they, as well as other manufacturers, are pricing shit out of the reach of their consumer base. If I'm spending $40-$50K on an SUV, why am I going to select a Wrangler over a Grand Cherokee or an Alfa Stelvio? Because of its off-road abilities? Yeah, I'm not taking a $40-$50K vehicle through trails. At that price point, I expect comfort to be high and wind noise to be non-existent.
:dat:

Greed gonna greed.
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Sat May 18, 2019 12:14 am

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:21 pm
Apex wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:02 pm
Just built a 2-door Sport S.... and it hit $40k how I would ideally want it. :butwhy:

That $2k hit for the 8speed, ouch.
It's just silly.

I could see $1k for an auto - but $2k? :yikes:

What's the manual take rate on Wrangler, anyway? Make it a no-cost option for a manual instead.
The $2K Automatic option in the Year of Our Lord 2019 is pure sodomy. :micdrop:
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Sat May 18, 2019 1:57 am

Zillon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:49 pm
Detroit wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm

Is it better for the product to go away because it's obsolete, or evolve and stay around?

With the prices where they're at, we're already getting market feedback that's they're too expensive and other vehicles make more sense forany buyers. It's only a matter of time before the Wrangler is too niche to sell in the volume it needs to.
It's way too expensive; I can't afford a new one, period (and I feel I'll soon be unable to afford anything new ever again the way vehicle costs are going up).

Back to the JL: Is it expensive as a result of demand, or as a result of cost to build? It's far better if it can stay around and evolve, but you need to remember that part of the Wrangler ethos is the live axle. It's a sacrifice many people are willing to live with for the image and the capability.
Pretty sure the wrangler is profitable at 15-20k off sticker after year 2. I’m expecting it to get even more of the FCA cash money on the hood soon enough.

The 60k rubicon is a money grab everyone knows this at this point

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Sat May 18, 2019 10:38 am

Image

I’m with Max. This thing sucks on the highway. Also. Pretty sure this is the same truck you had :225:

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Sat May 18, 2019 11:38 am

Johnny_P wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:38 am
Image

I’m with Max. This thing sucks on the highway. Also. Pretty sure this is the same truck you had :225:
Holy shit you got my Jeep! Which rental agency did you use.

Did you have wind noise issues as well ?

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Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am

max225 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:38 am
Johnny_P wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:38 am
Image

I’m with Max. This thing sucks on the highway. Also. Pretty sure this is the same truck you had :225:
Holy shit you got my Jeep! Which rental agency did you use.

Did you have wind noise issues as well ?
Don't use a blacklight. :yikes:
Zildor the Magnificent
Mazderp Dillerman Extraordinaire
Garage: 2016 Heep | 2009 Meata

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