OT 12: Pew Pew Pew

[dubshow]

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[goIftdibrad]

[goIftdibrad]

[troyguitar]

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... s-suicide/

FWIW as a gun owner I find this head in the sand attitude about them the most harmful thing we can do to both sides of the debate.

What debate? The are against guns in every way. Even you are more likely to get fucking shot by having them.

All your side does is display pure willful ignorance, combined with pouring a SHIT LOAD of money at misdirection and lobbying to keep yourselves in power.

[goIftdibrad]

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... s-suicide/

FWIW as a gun owner I find this head in the sand attitude about them the most harmful thing we can do to both sides of the debate.

i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.

It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.

[goIftdibrad]

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... s-suicide/

FWIW as a gun owner I find this head in the sand attitude about them the most harmful thing we can do to both sides of the debate.

What debate? The are against guns in every way. Even you are more likely to get fucking shot by having them.

All your side does is display pure willful ignorance, combined with pouring a SHIT LOAD of money at misdirection and lobbying to keep yourselves in power.

[troyguitar]

When one side uses and the other side uses it's simply not a debate.

[goIftdibrad]

[goIftdibrad]

What debate? The are against guns in every way. Even you are more likely to get fucking shot by having them.

All your side does is display pure willful ignorance, combined with pouring a SHIT LOAD of money at misdirection and lobbying to keep yourselves in power.

For me the debate is this:

Full TRUE non-spun facts on the table and everyone that takes their side needs to do so any accept the moral responsibility with that side.

I own several firearms that probably should be illegal. I'd be fine with that.

I am ok with people saying "my gun rights above all costs including all the needless lives lost." I disagree with that but that's their right.

Let's have THAT discussion and see where people really land.

I think they should licence them like cars. you need some min level of competency to own & operate.

[goIftdibrad]

[dubshow]

how is it stupid? suicide is a victim less crime. Can you victimize yourself?? Is it good? No. But no one else was physically harmed in the act.

murder/violent crimes =/= suicides.

A conversation about gun deaths is not necessarily a conversation about crime.

but crimes with guns is really the thing I care about. When we solve that we can dig into suicide.

[goIftdibrad]

i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.

It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.

But it is a violent crime :dunno:

About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.

Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.

So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.

Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).

That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.

sure, thats a real number and its a sad one, but you have to start from a position that the gov owns your body and therefore you can commit a crime against yourself.

I do not hold that position, IE you should be able to do what you want with your body as long as it does not effect others directly.

[goIftdibrad]

[goIftdibrad]

[dubshow]

i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.

It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.

But it is a violent crime :dunno:

About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.

Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.

So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.

Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).

That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.

theres a ton of what ifs. How many people jump off a building? Thats a sure death outcome. No guns? Seems like they will just take the next sure path to the end.

We are BOTH making assumptions on a variable that can't be predicted.

[goIftdibrad]

sure, thats a real number and its a sad one, but you have to start from a position that the gov owns your body and therefore you can commit a crime against yourself.

I do not hold that position, IE you should be able to do what you want with your body as long as it does not effect others directly.

Suicide should be legally permissable, the bigger point is that 90% never try again after a failure. Anyone in the mental health profession will tell you because most people that commit suicide don't want to be dead after. Therefore using something as final as a gun means it has to be brought into the conversation.

So you agree its not a crime to commit suicide?

[goIftdibrad]

[troyguitar]

i just dont agree with looping into the violent crime stat.

It be like rolling in accidental knife cuts with stabbings.

But it is a violent crime :dunno:

About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.

Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.

So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.

Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).

That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.

I don't think that people who want to die being dead is a bad thing. Similarly, people who die in car crashes without seat belts or on motorcycles without helmets shouldn't be considered to be indicative of problems with cars or bikes.

I do think it's a bad thing that I have to worry about being shot by a driver if I confront them for being a fucking jackass.

[dubshow]

sure, thats a real number and its a sad one, but you have to start from a position that the gov owns your body and therefore you can commit a crime against yourself.

I do not hold that position, IE you should be able to do what you want with your body as long as it does not effect others directly.

Suicide should be legally permissable, the bigger point is that 90% never try again after a failure. Anyone in the mental health profession will tell you because most people that attempt to commit suicide and survive don't want to be dead after. Therefore using something as final as a gun means it has to be brought into the conversation.

but they can take the cry for help option. Pills.

You are lumping all these different reasons into suicide and methods of suicide, which makes your argument invalid.

If you feel people are free to self harm and control their body, then why does the instrument of harm matter??

[goIftdibrad]

[troyguitar]

I don't think that people who want to die being dead is a bad thing. Similarly, people who die in car crashes without seat belts or on motorcycles without helmets shouldn't be considered to be indicative of problems with cars or bikes.

I do think it's a bad thing that I have to worry about being shot by a driver if I confront them for being a fucking jackass.

Well you shouldn't confront them regardless of a gun. You're not a big dude. Fists could fuck ya.

I can outrun any fat fuck who owns a - but not his gunz.

These people NEED to be confronted and shamed at every single infraction, if not actually fucking cited by law enforcement who are too busy hunting for speeders to do anything useful.

[dubshow]

So you agree its not a crime to commit suicide?

Of course! I also think that those deaths are attributable to guns so must be included in the debate.

welp, I don't. If someone wants to clock out, yes do it.

We should also make therapy more accessible. The conversation for metal wellness should be more approachable as well.

If both those things happen, and suicide is legal, WHY would the method of suicide matter?? :iuno: I will never agree with you on this until all other options are resolved to teh root of suicide.

Why not focus on more achievable goals that help more people: like BIG PHARMA KILLING PEOPLE WITH OPIODS.

WAY MORE PEOPLE DIE FROM PILLS. Yet you focus on guns...

[dubshow]

OH HEY. ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM HERE:

Among the more than 64,000 drug overdose deaths estimated in 2016, the sharpest increase occurred among deaths related to fentanyl and fentanyl analogs (synthetic opioids) with over 20,000 overdose deaths. Source: CDC WONDER.

[troyguitar]

but they can take the cry for help option. Pills.

You are lumping all these different reasons into suicide and methods of suicide, which makes your argument invalid.

If you feel people are free to self harm and control their body, then why does the instrument of harm matter??

Because as a society we have a duty to care for the most vulnerable. Mental illness is a vulnerability.

It's funny, I wouldn't advocate for pistol restrictions for a second (and it's not like anyone is using a sporting rifle for suicide), but you guys get so wrapped around the argument because GUNS! you fail to see the point being made.

What possible reasoning could you have to argue that we should all have unrestricted access to handguns?

[razr390]

But it is a violent crime :dunno:

About 43k people kill themselves with a gun in a year.

Statistically, only 10% of people who have a fail suicide attempt try again. Average success rate of suicide without a gun is about 30%.

So let's say that those folks don't have access to a gun.

Let's also assume this second attempts are always successful (they aren't).

That's 27,000 suicides that wouldn't happen without guns. Gotta include that number.

I don't think that people who want to die being dead is a bad thing. Similarly, people who die in car crashes without seat belts or on motorcycles without helmets shouldn't be considered to be indicative of problems with cars or bikes.

I do think it's a bad thing that I have to worry about being shot by a driver if I confront them for being a fucking jackass.

You said it yourself, don’t go looking for trouble.