EV info/Shitposts + :Math:

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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:18 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:16 pm
Epic! It's a bay of Lake Michigan which keeps the water somewhat calm, especially around our place. We have a boat slip with the house, just no boat to keep at it.
:ayfkm:
A boat is just a hole in the water that you throw money into.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:57 pm Thanks for doing the :math: , I'm not enamored with the idea of spiking electricity prices once the tipping point is achieved on consumption.

Curious to see what Hydrogen fuel developments come out in the next coming years, a neighbor practically won the lottery betting on hydrogen fuel stocks over the last year.

I'm good staying put, hopefully the lemmings will leap into electric tech and gas demand will drop further, reducing prices that are currently being offset by carbon taxes.
Hydrogen has a ton of complications to work out. not sure it'll ever be widely used for personal transportation.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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:impressive: EV boat thread
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Detroit wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:46 pm
Desertbreh wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:18 pm

:ayfkm:
A boat is just a hole in the water that you throw money into.
You ain't lying. Something simple? Aluminum fishing boat with outboard kinda thing?
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:04 pm :impressive: EV boat thread
:lol: Sorry man.
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:12 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:46 pm
A boat is just a hole in the water that you throw money into.
You ain't lying. Something simple? Aluminum fishing boat with outboard kinda thing?
I think they might make us move if we try to dock something so poverty in our slip. We're way too poor for where we live.

There's some major floating stock down there. I've entertained the idea of buying a $10-$15k boat...wife's begging for it, I just think it's too much hassle overall. I told her we'll just make friends with the neighbors. We'll provide the booze (ample) they provide the boat.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:15 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:04 pm :impressive: EV boat thread
:lol: Sorry man.
Do you even DFD?
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:57 pm Thanks for doing the :math: , I'm not enamored with the idea of spiking electricity prices once the tipping point is achieved on consumption.

Curious to see what Hydrogen fuel developments come out in the next coming years, a neighbor practically won the lottery betting on hydrogen fuel stocks over the last year.

I'm good staying put, hopefully the lemmings will leap into electric tech and gas demand will drop further, reducing prices that are currently being offset by carbon taxes.
NP it took me a few weeks to gather all the info as driving electric is completely different. Those people that I know that do, are clueless. As to what it costs to “fill them up”. A couple of bucks is the normal answer which is clearly :wrong:

Hudrogen is super cool but the infrastructure is horrendous. While you do fill up in sub 5 min and the range is fine. The Stations are rare AF
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max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:26 pm
Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:57 pm Thanks for doing the :math: , I'm not enamored with the idea of spiking electricity prices once the tipping point is achieved on consumption.

Curious to see what Hydrogen fuel developments come out in the next coming years, a neighbor practically won the lottery betting on hydrogen fuel stocks over the last year.

I'm good staying put, hopefully the lemmings will leap into electric tech and gas demand will drop further, reducing prices that are currently being offset by carbon taxes.
NP it took me a few weeks to gather all the info as driving electric is completely different. Those people that I know that do, are clueless. As to what it costs to “fill them up”. A couple of bucks is the normal answer which is clearly :wrong:

Hudrogen is super cool but the infrastructure is horrendous. While you do fill up in sub 5 min and the range is fine. The Stations are rare AF
I envision risks due to its flammable nature, but it wouldn't be hard to transport hydrogen to stations nationwide. Another subject for future consideration, but I know that Toyota is investing in the tech.

I've always heard similar responses about EV fill costs. Are people just oblivious to their electricity bills? Since it is similar to filling with gas, the electricity bills need to reflect that cost. I'd expect people to be paying a few hundred per month.

When I get more time, I'm going to go over your breakdown with local pricing and post up what I get for a comparison here.
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:51 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:26 pm
NP it took me a few weeks to gather all the info as driving electric is completely different. Those people that I know that do, are clueless. As to what it costs to “fill them up”. A couple of bucks is the normal answer which is clearly :wrong:

Hudrogen is super cool but the infrastructure is horrendous. While you do fill up in sub 5 min and the range is fine. The Stations are rare AF
I envision risks due to its flammable nature, but it wouldn't be hard to transport hydrogen to stations nationwide. Another subject for future consideration, but I know that Toyota is investing in the tech.

I've always heard similar responses about EV fill costs. Are people just oblivious to their electricity bills? Since it is similar to filling with gas, the electricity bills need to reflect that cost. I'd expect people to be paying a few hundred per month.

When I get more time, I'm going to go over your breakdown with local pricing and post up what I get for a comparison here.
Keep me posted. I am curious. Also check with your local power company /bill on KWH costs. They vary greatly.
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/starting-pla ... 14113.html

Whoa I knew we had a lot of chargers but damn
2.5 times as many as the next state down and 5x as many as most states per capita 😳
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max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:56 pm
Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:51 pm

I envision risks due to its flammable nature, but it wouldn't be hard to transport hydrogen to stations nationwide. Another subject for future consideration, but I know that Toyota is investing in the tech.

I've always heard similar responses about EV fill costs. Are people just oblivious to their electricity bills? Since it is similar to filling with gas, the electricity bills need to reflect that cost. I'd expect people to be paying a few hundred per month.

When I get more time, I'm going to go over your breakdown with local pricing and post up what I get for a comparison here.
Keep me posted. I am curious. Also check with your local power company /bill on KWH costs. They vary greatly.
I was just mulling over the bill... check it out:


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10.5 cents off peak is excellent ! That’s significantly
Cheaper than our electricity here. There may be a specific ev program with your utility as well, that tends to be @ or below the off peak
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max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:21 pm 10.5 cents off peak is excellent ! That’s significantly
Cheaper than our electricity here. There may be a specific ev program with your utility as well, that tends to be @ or below the off peak
During the first lockdown, the government mandated a low 10 cent flat rate across the board, and it is now creeping up. These rates are significantly lower then they used to be, and you can even see a rebate to lower the cost even more. All temp measures and a byproduct of the energy sector being sold off to private, nobody knows what they will look like in a year or two.
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:28 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:21 pm 10.5 cents off peak is excellent ! That’s significantly
Cheaper than our electricity here. There may be a specific ev program with your utility as well, that tends to be @ or below the off peak
During the first lockdown, the government mandated a low 10 cent flat rate across the board, and it is now creeping up. These rates are significantly lower then they used to be, and you can even see a rebate to lower the cost even more. All temp measures and a byproduct of the energy sector being sold off to private, nobody knows what they will look like in a year or two.
The rebate is usually for the “generation” fees. My power company does the same thing for some reason
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I'm $65/fill for a 340 mile tank currently.

A model 3 at 340 miles / 2.5 miles/kWH = 136 kWH
Does that mean I'm buying a full tank for $14.28?

I guess a $2000 home charger needs to be added to a five year ownership cycle, which is $400/yr.

I'm at 70 fills/yr pre-pandemic.

The cost diff 65-15 =$50/fill × 70 fills/yr = $3500 (savings)-$400(charger) = $3100/yr.

That seems pretty significant assuming both cars cost the same to own. Unfortunately the five year price differential between any normal 30k car and a 60k Model 3 is double the fuel savings during that time frame,so I'm out $15k.

On the flip side, I bought a 45k Golf R, so that brings it to a stalemate.

I wouldn't count the extra electricity fees in my case because they are already embedded into my lifestyle whether I drive a petrol or electric car.

My next car likely won't be over 30k :doe: , I think that ship has sailed for me when I bought a second property and am trying to cost cut for the next ten years.
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:53 pm I'm $65/fill for a 340 mile tank currently.

A model 3 at 340 miles / 2.5 miles/kWH = 136 kWH
Does that mean I'm buying a full tank for $14.28?

I guess a $2000 home charger needs to be added to a five year ownership cycle, which is $400/yr.

I'm at 70 fills/yr pre-pandemic.

The cost diff 65-15 =$50/fill × 70 fills/yr = $3500 (savings)-$400(charger) = $3100/yr.

That seems pretty significant assuming both cars cost the same to own. Unfortunately the five year price differential between any normal 30k car and a 60k Model 3 is double the fuel savings during that time frame,so I'm out $15k.

On the flip side, I bought a 45k Golf R, so that brings it to a stalemate.

I wouldn't count the extra electricity fees in my case because they are already embedded into my lifestyle whether I drive a petrol or electric car.

My next car likely won't be over 30k :doe: , I think that ship has sailed for me when I bought a second property and am trying to cost cut for the next ten years.
Model 3 has 75kwh but remember the whole “transmission loss” so effectively ~86kwh. The “claimed” 340 is essentially “freeway” mpg if you can call it that. Real world is limited due to the before mentioned limitations on charges to full/empty etc.

Your “effective charge” is 56 kWh, and you should be able to travel 140 miles (80 % down to 15%) @ $5.88 a “fill up”. (Note I’m using conservative figures, not advertised, which are literally unachievable unless you hypermile)

I think your situation is actually quite favorable to an EV. Cheap electricity and you’re currently in expensive fuel prices. Also don’t forget EVs only need tires and brake fluid changes for the most part
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max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:18 pm
Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:53 pm I'm $65/fill for a 340 mile tank currently.

A model 3 at 340 miles / 2.5 miles/kWH = 136 kWH
Does that mean I'm buying a full tank for $14.28?

I guess a $2000 home charger needs to be added to a five year ownership cycle, which is $400/yr.

I'm at 70 fills/yr pre-pandemic.

The cost diff 65-15 =$50/fill × 70 fills/yr = $3500 (savings)-$400(charger) = $3100/yr.

That seems pretty significant assuming both cars cost the same to own. Unfortunately the five year price differential between any normal 30k car and a 60k Model 3 is double the fuel savings during that time frame,so I'm out $15k.

On the flip side, I bought a 45k Golf R, so that brings it to a stalemate.

I wouldn't count the extra electricity fees in my case because they are already embedded into my lifestyle whether I drive a petrol or electric car.

My next car likely won't be over 30k :doe: , I think that ship has sailed for me when I bought a second property and am trying to cost cut for the next ten years.
Model 3 has 75kwh but remember the whole “transmission loss” so effectively ~86kwh. The “claimed” 340 is essentially “freeway” mpg if you can call it that. Real world is limited due to the before mentioned limitations on charges to full/empty etc.

Your “effective charge” is 56 kWh, and you should be able to travel 140 miles (80 % down to 15%) @ $5.88 a “fill up”. (Note I’m using conservative figures, not advertised, which are literally unachievable unless you hypermile)

I think your situation is actually quite favorable to an EV. Cheap electricity and you’re currently in expensive fuel prices. Also don’t forget EVs only need tires and brake fluid changes for the most part
I'm trying to keep to the same range, if it takes two charges to achieve the distance then we double it, etc.

I agree there is a significant savings at this time, but only if the car becomes a 30k thing which I believe will be the case within the next five years. Otherwise, the cost benefit goes to 20k hybrid econobox.

Shit, I'm having trouble visualizing what 2025 will look like from an economic perspective.
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Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:41 pm
max225 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:18 pm

Model 3 has 75kwh but remember the whole “transmission loss” so effectively ~86kwh. The “claimed” 340 is essentially “freeway” mpg if you can call it that. Real world is limited due to the before mentioned limitations on charges to full/empty etc.

Your “effective charge” is 56 kWh, and you should be able to travel 140 miles (80 % down to 15%) @ $5.88 a “fill up”. (Note I’m using conservative figures, not advertised, which are literally unachievable unless you hypermile)

I think your situation is actually quite favorable to an EV. Cheap electricity and you’re currently in expensive fuel prices. Also don’t forget EVs only need tires and brake fluid changes for the most part
I'm trying to keep to the same range, if it takes two charges to achieve the distance then we double it, etc.

I agree there is a significant savings at this time, but only if the car becomes a 30k thing which I believe will be the case within the next five years. Otherwise, the cost benefit goes to 20k hybrid econobox.

Shit, I'm having trouble visualizing what 2025 will look like from an economic perspective.
I mean in your case, anyone shopping in the 50-70k range would be a fool not to check the model 3. But obviously it really doesn’t fare well when you compare to a vehicle sub 30k or 20k, simple economics break down there.
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max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:09 am
Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:41 pm

I'm trying to keep to the same range, if it takes two charges to achieve the distance then we double it, etc.

I agree there is a significant savings at this time, but only if the car becomes a 30k thing which I believe will be the case within the next five years. Otherwise, the cost benefit goes to 20k hybrid econobox.

Shit, I'm having trouble visualizing what 2025 will look like from an economic perspective.
I mean in your case, anyone shopping in the 50-70k range would be a fool not to check the model 3. But obviously it really doesn’t fare well when you compare to a vehicle sub 30k or 20k, simple economics break down there.
Elon says that he's got the battery price way down, I don't have deets but I think it is significant. Hopefully there will be 30k EV options in four years.
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:15 am
max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:09 am

I mean in your case, anyone shopping in the 50-70k range would be a fool not to check the model 3. But obviously it really doesn’t fare well when you compare to a vehicle sub 30k or 20k, simple economics break down there.
Elon says that he's got the battery price way down, I don't have deets but I think it is significant. Hopefully there will be 30k EV options in four years.
There are plenty of options used if range is a non issue 😩
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Detroit wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:43 pm
CaleDeRoo wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:32 pm

Yes. Manufacturers really need to work together if they want to compete with Tesla because they never will if they can't catch up with the charging network.
OEMs or the .gov. This is the biggest hurdle to EV adoption IMO. I can't practically own one where live because of the lack of charging around my region and where I go.
:dat:
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Detroit wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:49 pm
Tarspin wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:57 pm Thanks for doing the :math: , I'm not enamored with the idea of spiking electricity prices once the tipping point is achieved on consumption.

Curious to see what Hydrogen fuel developments come out in the next coming years, a neighbor practically won the lottery betting on hydrogen fuel stocks over the last year.

I'm good staying put, hopefully the lemmings will leap into electric tech and gas demand will drop further, reducing prices that are currently being offset by carbon taxes.
Hydrogen has a ton of complications to work out. not sure it'll ever be widely used for personal transportation.
Works reasonably well in big stuff, but I’m not sure how well it scales down. We seem hedging on it being the future vs. our battery stuff.

https://www.cummins.com/news/2020/11/16 ... technology
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4zilch wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:38 am
Detroit wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:49 pm
Hydrogen has a ton of complications to work out. not sure it'll ever be widely used for personal transportation.
Works reasonably well in big stuff, but I’m not sure how well it scales down. We seem hedging on it being the future vs. our battery stuff.

https://www.cummins.com/news/2020/11/16 ... technology
Right...for your applications it actually makes far more sense than battery IMO.

I have friends at GM who claim they're still working on Hydrogen too, but mostly for fleet/commercial purposes.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Pretty interesting stuff here. The OP is :mindblown: ... basically the costs to run are the same and the vehicles are considerably more money upfront AND depreciate at a higher rate typically.

I understand the appeal if say, your company offers charging on their dime, even though conceptually I think that is :bs: ... Tt's just a "rich getting richer" type benny as the only people who actually give a fuck about their power bills cannot afford a Tesla or most EVs and they also dwell in apartments where EVs wouldn't be practical.

Although EVs may be lower maintenance over the long haul, first owners don't do anything but maybe a $0-100 annual oil change on ICE vehicles. This really begs the question to me :butwhy: are .govs and other entities pushing so hard for EVs and not exploring other technologies or trying to just reduce our dependency on individually owned automobiles in general.

1. EVs are rarely better for the environment - in many cases they're worse in areas where coal and natural gas are used for energy. Battery production/disposal isn't friendly to the planet.
2. As discussed - no cost benefit to speak of
3. Infrastructure isn't there in any part of the US - CA has rolling black outs for fucks sake... how do we plan to address adding a huge amount of demand to our power grid?
4. Currently EVs represent sub 5% of vehicles in the US. Do we have enough materials to manufacture batteries for them to be 20% or 50% or 100%? Will we really run out of gas before we do lithium and other battery materials if we move to all EV?

I feel that EVs are great for commuting - they're quieter, no need to get gas on your hands, great acceleration, they're most efficient in cities/low speeds. All of that is great if you have a home and workplace where you can charge, have an ICE vehicle for long trips, etc. I just don't understand why the world seems to see them as this inevitable future direction that's going to solve all of our problems.
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