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max225
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D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:29 am Pretty interesting stuff here. The OP is :mindblown: ... basically the costs to run are the same and the vehicles are considerably more money upfront AND depreciate at a higher rate typically.

I understand the appeal if say, your company offers charging on their dime, even though conceptually I think that is :bs: ... Tt's just a "rich getting richer" type benny as the only people who actually give a fuck about their power bills cannot afford a Tesla or most EVs and they also dwell in apartments where EVs wouldn't be practical.

Although EVs may be lower maintenance over the long haul, first owners don't do anything but maybe a $0-100 annual oil change on ICE vehicles. This really begs the question to me :butwhy: are .govs and other entities pushing so hard for EVs and not exploring other technologies or trying to just reduce our dependency on individually owned automobiles in general.

1. EVs are rarely better for the environment - in many cases they're worse in areas where coal and natural gas are used for energy. Battery production/disposal isn't friendly to the planet.
2. As discussed - no cost benefit to speak of
3. Infrastructure isn't there in any part of the US - CA has rolling black outs for fucks sake... how do we plan to address adding a huge amount of demand to our power grid?
4. Currently EVs represent sub 5% of vehicles in the US. Do we have enough materials to manufacture batteries for them to be 20% or 50% or 100%? Will we really run out of gas before we do lithium and other battery materials if we move to all EV?

I feel that EVs are great for commuting - they're quieter, no need to get gas on your hands, great acceleration, they're most efficient in cities/low speeds. All of that is great if you have a home and workplace where you can charge, have an ICE vehicle for long trips, etc. I just don't understand why the world seems to see them as this inevitable future direction that's going to solve all of our problems.
Interesting segway. I tried to address it in my initial post as well. I don't see electric cars for now as being "the answer" certainly not on lithium. I do think electric makes more sense than burning dinosaurs, as long as the electricity is generated appropriately. Which the world is rapidly working towards.

If we truly wanted to "spew less C02" into the atmosphere, we would have to gauge what electric cars are truly doing to the environment end to end. There are some videos on this trying to "debunk" that they are dirty, but I feel like they are biased. Because if you go against the green new deal you will get banned off the internet.
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max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:24 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:29 am Pretty interesting stuff here. The OP is :mindblown: ... basically the costs to run are the same and the vehicles are considerably more money upfront AND depreciate at a higher rate typically.

I understand the appeal if say, your company offers charging on their dime, even though conceptually I think that is :bs: ... Tt's just a "rich getting richer" type benny as the only people who actually give a fuck about their power bills cannot afford a Tesla or most EVs and they also dwell in apartments where EVs wouldn't be practical.

Although EVs may be lower maintenance over the long haul, first owners don't do anything but maybe a $0-100 annual oil change on ICE vehicles. This really begs the question to me :butwhy: are .govs and other entities pushing so hard for EVs and not exploring other technologies or trying to just reduce our dependency on individually owned automobiles in general.

1. EVs are rarely better for the environment - in many cases they're worse in areas where coal and natural gas are used for energy. Battery production/disposal isn't friendly to the planet.
2. As discussed - no cost benefit to speak of
3. Infrastructure isn't there in any part of the US - CA has rolling black outs for fucks sake... how do we plan to address adding a huge amount of demand to our power grid?
4. Currently EVs represent sub 5% of vehicles in the US. Do we have enough materials to manufacture batteries for them to be 20% or 50% or 100%? Will we really run out of gas before we do lithium and other battery materials if we move to all EV?

I feel that EVs are great for commuting - they're quieter, no need to get gas on your hands, great acceleration, they're most efficient in cities/low speeds. All of that is great if you have a home and workplace where you can charge, have an ICE vehicle for long trips, etc. I just don't understand why the world seems to see them as this inevitable future direction that's going to solve all of our problems.
Interesting segway. I tried to address it in my initial post as well. I don't see electric cars for now as being "the answer" certainly not on lithium. I do think electric makes more sense than burning dinosaurs, as long as the electricity is generated appropriately. Which the world is rapidly working towards.

If we truly wanted to "spew less C02" into the atmosphere, we would have to gauge what electric cars are truly doing to the environment end to end. There are some videos on this trying to "debunk" that they are dirty, but I feel like they are biased. Because if you go against the green new deal you will get banned off the internet.
Much like with COVID, I feel like it's difficult to get real, trustworthy data. It is also rather dependent on where you live, lifestyle, etc.

I certainly don't think EVs are bad or anything, I see it as kind of a wash. There are many ICE vehicles now that are very efficient and EVs can be as well. I feel like the true answer is a more urban lifestyle for most people where walking/cycling/bus/train are the norm, maybe just one car per family for grocery runs, trips, etc. This would be a much more sustainable and cost effective model whether ICE, EV, and/or some other tech.

It's tricky though, as our country's infrastructure was never planned or built this way and we all enjoy the comfort and convenience of personal vehicle ownership and suburban living.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:29 am ...

I understand the appeal if say, your company offers charging on their dime, even though conceptually I think that is :bs: ... Tt's just a "rich getting richer" type benny as the only people who actually give a fuck about their power bills cannot afford a Tesla or most EVs and they also dwell in apartments where EVs wouldn't be practical.

1. EVs are rarely better for the environment - in many cases they're worse in areas where coal and natural gas are used for energy. Battery production/disposal isn't friendly to the planet.
....
I don't really see an issue if the company provides charging stations - they provide bicycle and motorcycle specific parking - and lockers to store your gear :iono: . Dude at work used to drive his Nissan Leaf on the daily. Terrible looking car - but reasonably practical I suppose, and affordable.

Environmentally friendly really depends on what aspect of the environment you're looking at. Yes, mining and battery disposal presents environmental challenges, but drilling, refining, and transporting fossil fuels isn't exactly environmentally friendly either.

The advantage of EVs is in tailpipe emissions - and if you're able to couple charging with environmentally friendlier power generation it's a pretty good deal in terms of air quality and GHG reductions.

In terms of infrastructure - I don't know - I know more than one person that's taken multi-day trips in Teslas - Most recently a guy that drove his Tesla from Houston to TOTD. Obviously not as convenient as traditional ICE power, but also very doable.

Funny this got brought up - Fakenews recently did a pretty good article on this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -cost.html
As the only published author in a well-known motorcycle publication in the room...
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D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:53 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:24 pm

Interesting segway. I tried to address it in my initial post as well. I don't see electric cars for now as being "the answer" certainly not on lithium. I do think electric makes more sense than burning dinosaurs, as long as the electricity is generated appropriately. Which the world is rapidly working towards.

If we truly wanted to "spew less C02" into the atmosphere, we would have to gauge what electric cars are truly doing to the environment end to end. There are some videos on this trying to "debunk" that they are dirty, but I feel like they are biased. Because if you go against the green new deal you will get banned off the internet.
Much like with COVID, I feel like it's difficult to get real, trustworthy data. It is also rather dependent on where you live, lifestyle, etc.

I certainly don't think EVs are bad or anything, I see it as kind of a wash. There are many ICE vehicles now that are very efficient and EVs can be as well. I feel like the true answer is a more urban lifestyle for most people where walking/cycling/bus/train are the norm, maybe just one car per family for grocery runs, trips, etc. This would be a much more sustainable and cost effective model whether ICE, EV, and/or some other tech.

It's tricky though, as our country's infrastructure was never planned or built this way and we all enjoy the comfort and convenience of personal vehicle ownership and suburban living.
I mean we're evolving as a species. Pre Covid urban centers were getting quite dense and popular again. When I worked in SF 8/10 people didn't even OWN CARS. But that obviously got completely reversed which is why the used/new prices are through the roof. Everyone wants/needs their own car again...
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4zilch wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:57 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:29 am ...

I understand the appeal if say, your company offers charging on their dime, even though conceptually I think that is :bs: ... Tt's just a "rich getting richer" type benny as the only people who actually give a fuck about their power bills cannot afford a Tesla or most EVs and they also dwell in apartments where EVs wouldn't be practical.

1. EVs are rarely better for the environment - in many cases they're worse in areas where coal and natural gas are used for energy. Battery production/disposal isn't friendly to the planet.
....
I don't really see an issue if the company provides charging stations - they provide bicycle and motorcycle specific parking - and lockers to store your gear :iono: . Dude at work used to drive his Nissan Leaf on the daily. Terrible looking car - but reasonably practical I suppose, and affordable.

Environmentally friendly really depends on what aspect of the environment you're looking at. Yes, mining and battery disposal presents environmental challenges, but drilling, refining, and transporting fossil fuels isn't exactly environmentally friendly either.

The advantage of EVs is in tailpipe emissions - and if you're able to couple charging with environmentally friendlier power generation it's a pretty good deal in terms of air quality and GHG reductions.

In terms of infrastructure - I don't know - I know more than one person that's taken multi-day trips in Teslas - Most recently a guy that drove his Tesla from Houston to TOTD. Obviously not as convenient as traditional ICE power, but also very doable.

Funny this got brought up - Fakenews recently did a pretty good article on this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -cost.html
The biggest question I have is how they are getting the "carbon per mile"

This is the "source" they list. But I would truly like to understand how something burning "coal" without a cat etc, then transmitting it 1000 miles to your outlet and losing 30% on the way is that carbon efficient.
https://carboncounter.com
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max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:57 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:53 pm

Much like with COVID, I feel like it's difficult to get real, trustworthy data. It is also rather dependent on where you live, lifestyle, etc.

I certainly don't think EVs are bad or anything, I see it as kind of a wash. There are many ICE vehicles now that are very efficient and EVs can be as well. I feel like the true answer is a more urban lifestyle for most people where walking/cycling/bus/train are the norm, maybe just one car per family for grocery runs, trips, etc. This would be a much more sustainable and cost effective model whether ICE, EV, and/or some other tech.

It's tricky though, as our country's infrastructure was never planned or built this way and we all enjoy the comfort and convenience of personal vehicle ownership and suburban living.
I mean we're evolving as a species. Pre Covid urban centers were getting quite dense and popular again. When I worked in SF 8/10 people didn't even OWN CARS. But that obviously got completely reversed which is why the used/new prices are through the roof. Everyone wants/needs their own car again...
True... I am curious how long it lasts. I think at least a decade to really become forgotten fully.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:07 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:57 pm

I mean we're evolving as a species. Pre Covid urban centers were getting quite dense and popular again. When I worked in SF 8/10 people didn't even OWN CARS. But that obviously got completely reversed which is why the used/new prices are through the roof. Everyone wants/needs their own car again...
True... I am curious how long it lasts. I think at least a decade to really become forgotten fully.
We’re almost a year in and at least 6 months to go. And it’ll probably at least that long to unravel
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4zilch wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:57 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:29 am ...

I understand the appeal if say, your company offers charging on their dime, even though conceptually I think that is :bs: ... Tt's just a "rich getting richer" type benny as the only people who actually give a fuck about their power bills cannot afford a Tesla or most EVs and they also dwell in apartments where EVs wouldn't be practical.

1. EVs are rarely better for the environment - in many cases they're worse in areas where coal and natural gas are used for energy. Battery production/disposal isn't friendly to the planet.
....
I don't really see an issue if the company provides charging stations - they provide bicycle and motorcycle specific parking - and lockers to store your gear :iono: . Dude at work used to drive his Nissan Leaf on the daily. Terrible looking car - but reasonably practical I suppose, and affordable.

Environmentally friendly really depends on what aspect of the environment you're looking at. Yes, mining and battery disposal presents environmental challenges, but drilling, refining, and transporting fossil fuels isn't exactly environmentally friendly either.

The advantage of EVs is in tailpipe emissions - and if you're able to couple charging with environmentally friendlier power generation it's a pretty good deal in terms of air quality and GHG reductions.

In terms of infrastructure - I don't know - I know more than one person that's taken multi-day trips in Teslas - Most recently a guy that drove his Tesla from Houston to TOTD. Obviously not as convenient as traditional ICE power, but also very doable.

Funny this got brought up - Fakenews recently did a pretty good article on this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -cost.html
If what Max states is true, they are essentially providing mostly wealthy employees with $25+/week of free fuel. It seems like :bs: to me when the vast majority can't partake in that benefit.

It is sort of like mortgage interest tax write offs, a nice idea, but it is really just giving more money to rich people and knocking down poors/the masses as they are the ones paying for these things in many cases.
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max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:09 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:07 pm

True... I am curious how long it lasts. I think at least a decade to really become forgotten fully.
We’re almost a year in and at least 6 months to go. And it’ll probably at least that long to unravel
I think many will be scared of large events for many years to come, schools will be run differently, etc.

:iono: we'll see.
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max225 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:01 pm
4zilch wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:57 pm

I don't really see an issue if the company provides charging stations - they provide bicycle and motorcycle specific parking - and lockers to store your gear :iono: . Dude at work used to drive his Nissan Leaf on the daily. Terrible looking car - but reasonably practical I suppose, and affordable.

Environmentally friendly really depends on what aspect of the environment you're looking at. Yes, mining and battery disposal presents environmental challenges, but drilling, refining, and transporting fossil fuels isn't exactly environmentally friendly either.

The advantage of EVs is in tailpipe emissions - and if you're able to couple charging with environmentally friendlier power generation it's a pretty good deal in terms of air quality and GHG reductions.

In terms of infrastructure - I don't know - I know more than one person that's taken multi-day trips in Teslas - Most recently a guy that drove his Tesla from Houston to TOTD. Obviously not as convenient as traditional ICE power, but also very doable.

Funny this got brought up - Fakenews recently did a pretty good article on this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -cost.html
The biggest question I have is how they are getting the "carbon per mile"

This is the "source" they list. But I would truly like to understand how something burning "coal" without a cat etc, then transmitting it 1000 miles to your outlet and losing 30% on the way is that carbon efficient.
https://carboncounter.com
Yeah - I agree - end-to-end environmental impacts are rarely adequately accounted for, and it's not unique to the transportation or power generation sector. We did some studies on it as it relates to Natural Gas vs. Diesel and even then some variables weren't accounted for. It's just very big and complicated when you try to account for everything.

FWIW - there are emissions reduction devices available to coal burning plants - admittedly I don't know what the regulatory requirements are and I'm not motived enough to look it up. Also, many coal burning plants have converted to natural gas, which is cleaner burning - though still presents CO2 challenges - again - I don't know how widespread they are, nor do I know what sort of emissions regulations they face.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:11 pm
4zilch wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:57 pm

I don't really see an issue if the company provides charging stations - they provide bicycle and motorcycle specific parking - and lockers to store your gear :iono: . Dude at work used to drive his Nissan Leaf on the daily. Terrible looking car - but reasonably practical I suppose, and affordable.

Environmentally friendly really depends on what aspect of the environment you're looking at. Yes, mining and battery disposal presents environmental challenges, but drilling, refining, and transporting fossil fuels isn't exactly environmentally friendly either.

The advantage of EVs is in tailpipe emissions - and if you're able to couple charging with environmentally friendlier power generation it's a pretty good deal in terms of air quality and GHG reductions.

In terms of infrastructure - I don't know - I know more than one person that's taken multi-day trips in Teslas - Most recently a guy that drove his Tesla from Houston to TOTD. Obviously not as convenient as traditional ICE power, but also very doable.

Funny this got brought up - Fakenews recently did a pretty good article on this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -cost.html
If what Max states is true, they are essentially providing mostly wealthy employees with $25+/week of free fuel. It seems like :bs: to me when the vast majority can't partake in that benefit.

It is sort of like mortgage interest tax write offs, a nice idea, but it is really just giving more money to rich people and knocking down poors/the masses as they are the ones paying for these things in many cases.
I mean I guess it depends on the size of the company and the spread of wages? A new Leaf is what $30K? Ever look around and see how many $60k+ trucks are rolling around the parking lot and cost way more than $25/week to fuel. Using my example - there were like 8 EV spots - which in the grand scheme of things in unmeasurable when it comes the power bill that the Company is already paying out. ~$800/mo using $25/week x 8 spots. If they were to put that money towards wages it certainly wouldn't go very far given the size of the company.

Rich people getting richer and erosion of the middle class is much much bigger than mortgage interest tax write offs (which is mostly null and void for most of us given the new standard deduction) and a few EV spots.
Last edited by 4zilch on Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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4zilch wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:34 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:11 pm

If what Max states is true, they are essentially providing mostly wealthy employees with $25+/week of free fuel. It seems like :bs: to me when the vast majority can't partake in that benefit.

It is sort of like mortgage interest tax write offs, a nice idea, but it is really just giving more money to rich people and knocking down poors/the masses as they are the ones paying for these things in many cases.
I mean I guess it depends on the size of the company and the spread of wages? A new Leaf is what $30K? Ever look around and see how many $60k+ trucks are rolling around the parking lot and cost way more than $25/week to fuel. Using my example - there were like 8 EV spots - which in the grand scheme of things in unmeasurable when it comes the power bill that the Company is already paying out. ~$800/mo using $25/week x 8 spots. If they were to put that money towards wages it certainly wouldn't go very far given the size of the company.

Rich people getting richer and erosion of the middle class is much much bigger than mortgage interest tax writes (which is mostly null and void of most of us given the new standard deduction) and a few EV spots.
:dat: I cap out on all of the deduction and the tax rates have gone through the roof on those in the middle. Ironically due to Trump.
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