Thoughts on tires

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Dbest
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So we have the new to us 2016 Highlander and winter is coming.

We live in Boulder Colorado in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains and we’re avid skiers. The weather here is interesting kind of interesting - we average 71” of snow but the temps in general are milder than you’d think. Average hi/low for the winter months are as follows: November 54/29, December 45/21, January 47/22, February 48/23, March 56/29. And at 5600 feet of elevation there is a lot of solar gain so snow melts very quickly, as long as you don’t have a north facing driveway you don’t even really need to worry about shoveling, with 300 days of sun per year it’ll like melted off by lunch tomorrow. There are some exceptions where a cold front will hit us with single digit or sub zero temps for a week, but we’ll also have multiple days in the 60’s during February. Its also worth noting we have 75 mph highways. However, you’re 10-15 minutes away from gaining significant altitude, much colder temps, steep winding roads, 2-3x the amount of annual snowfall, and traction laws requiring snow tires or chains under certain conditions.

In the past I’ve always ran dedicated winter tires on a second set of wheels during ski season.

Advantages
-unmatched winter traction and safety when the weather gets bad
-you get to pick a nicer looking set of wheels to use most of the year
Disadvantage
-cost of a second set of wheels and tires
-winter aren’t meant for the warm front range temps we sometimes get during winter
-they can feel squirmish at higher speeds and during wet weather braking
-you’re always storing a set of wheels/tires
-you spend the time and money to be properly prepared for winter, but it almost doesn’t matter because you’re surrounded by idiot Subaru drivers lining the ditches while more ill prepared vehicles ignore common sense and traction laws and clog up the roads slowing traffic to a crawl anyway

So here’s the options:

A) - Factory 18” wheels get new Nokian Hakkapellitta R3 SUV winter tires, a second new set of wheels, lugs, hub rings, and TPMS sensor get purchased and to run the current like-new tires.
Total cost - $2334.75 parts, labor, fees, and tax. Not included an $80 mail in rebate.

B) - Factory 18” wheels get new Nokian WR G4 (all weather tires **not to be confused with all season** which carry the 3PMSF severe use designation and a 60,000 mile tread wear warranty) as the 1 set to use year round.
Total cost - $1015.74 parts, labor, and tax. Not including whatever I could get for 1000 mile old all seasons.

Option B would result in roughly $1400ish in savings.

Some reading about the differences and performance. https://info.kaltire.com/all-weather-vs ... ter-tires/
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So, will you be going on ski trips in areas where and at times when snow tires would be mandated?

If so, I would buy the second dedicated set since you wouldn't be wearing them down on daily commutes.
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Huckleberry wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:19 pm So, will you be going on ski trips in areas where and at times when snow tires would be mandated?

If so, I would buy the second dedicated set since you wouldn't be wearing them down on daily commutes.
Yes, the traction’s laws apply to all mountain areas of the state, if your going to drive to a ski resort while it’s snowing some level of traction law applies. The first level is M+S (all season tires) with 6+/32” of tread. The next step up is M+S tires with good tread and snow chains or winter tires. I specified that the all weather tires have the 3PMSF (3 peak mountain snow flake) designation which meets any and all legal requirements for a winter tire.

Both options are legally considered winter tires.
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I'd probably go with B because having two sets of tires and wheels is a huge hassle and cost when you can have a tire that does it all.
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B all day.
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Dbest wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:15 am So we have the new to us 2016 Highlander and winter is coming.

We live in Boulder Colorado in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains and we’re avid skiers. The weather here is interesting kind of interesting - we average 71” of snow but the temps in general are milder than you’d think. Average hi/low for the winter months are as follows: November 54/29, December 45/21, January 47/22, February 48/23, March 56/29. And at 5600 feet of elevation there is a lot of solar gain so snow melts very quickly, as long as you don’t have a north facing driveway you don’t even really need to worry about shoveling, with 300 days of sun per year it’ll like melted off by lunch tomorrow. There are some exceptions where a cold front will hit us with single digit or sub zero temps for a week, but we’ll also have multiple days in the 60’s during February. Its also worth noting we have 75 mph highways. However, you’re 10-15 minutes away from gaining significant altitude, much colder temps, steep winding roads, 2-3x the amount of annual snowfall, and traction laws requiring snow tires or chains under certain conditions.

In the past I’ve always ran dedicated winter tires on a second set of wheels during ski season.

Advantages
-unmatched winter traction and safety when the weather gets bad
-you get to pick a nicer looking set of wheels to use most of the year
Disadvantage
-cost of a second set of wheels and tires
-winter aren’t meant for the warm front range temps we sometimes get during winter
-they can feel squirmish at higher speeds and during wet weather braking
-you’re always storing a set of wheels/tires
-you spend the time and money to be properly prepared for winter, but it almost doesn’t matter because you’re surrounded by idiot Subaru drivers lining the ditches while more ill prepared vehicles ignore common sense and traction laws and clog up the roads slowing traffic to a crawl anyway

So here’s the options:

A) - Factory 18” wheels get new Nokian Hakkapellitta R3 SUV winter tires, a second new set of wheels, lugs, hub rings, and TPMS sensor get purchased and to run the current like-new tires.
Total cost - $2334.75 parts, labor, fees, and tax. Not included an $80 mail in rebate.

B) - Factory 18” wheels get new Nokian WR G4 (all weather tires **not to be confused with all season** which carry the 3PMSF severe use designation and a 60,000 mile tread wear warranty) as the 1 set to use year round.
Total cost - $1015.74 parts, labor, and tax. Not including whatever I could get for 1000 mile old all seasons.

Option B would result in roughly $1400ish in savings.

Some reading about the differences and performance. https://info.kaltire.com/all-weather-vs ... ter-tires/
Go with the All Weather’s. I just sat in on a Toyota dealer council conference where they announced a fall 2021 push for a factory “all weather” campaign with the WR’s.

If you want a full winter, just buy the OEM size winters and swap them out to the stock rims every season change. Should cost around 80-100 at a dealer.

Toyota’s can not store two sets of TPMS info so each wheel swap needs a full reprogramming of the sensor id#s, which will add a service charge at a dealer or an additional purchase of a TMPS computer, or a sensor that you can clone the id#s over from your OEM set.
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This is why I like this forum.

I asked this a couple other places as well and the responses were soooo stupid. It ranged from telling me to buy all terrain tires, to trying to explain that “snow tires” with M+S designation (all seasons) aren’t as good as tires with snowflake (like both of the tires I was considering). One person said “ If you want All Season it's a no brainer get the Michelin Defender LTX M/S a PROVEN tire not brand new to the market..and mud and snow rated...” like no, I don’t want all seasons, I never said anything about considering all seasons, and are you trying to say you’ve never heard of Nokian?

My personal favorite was “ If I spent that much for winter tires my car would get rear ended and totaled next week. I've driven street tires on ice and studs were outlawed in Virginia two weeks before an ice storm, in 1966, so bad the newer cars wheels were spinning at the traffic lights and they went nowhere.
One time our 1950 Dodge (fluid drive) went to a Pennsylvania ski resort, can't remember if it was Blue Knob or Seven Springs. It snowed two feet while we were there and we couldn't get out of the parking lot, so we bought ski boot laces and tied them around the Dodge's wheels, Drove it 40 miles to the cleared turnpike, before they disintegrated.
Maybe the less expensive set and something to get you through the really bad spots?
I also damn near drowned in the pool 4 hours after dinner, when I got cramps just about everywhere you could imagine and had to hand paddle my way 20 feet to the ladder, couldn't move arms or legs or get my head out of the water.
55 years ago.”





So In the end, I think we decided we’re going to go with the WRG4 as the one set to use year round. This is another COVID winter so we’ll see what happens with ski season, but regardless if the doesn’t doesn’t come out by Thursday wifey gets induced Friday. All things considered I feel like this year provides better timing to try out the cheaper more convenient single tire route. If we aren’t satisfied next year we can add the second set of dedicated winters and wheels.
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Fluid drive response is :amazing: for entertainment value
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You made the right call. I'm interested to hear what you think about the WRG4 in the snow.
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troyguitar wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:11 am You made the right call. I'm interested to hear what you think about the WRG4 in the snow.
I’ll update this over the months.
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Dbest wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:02 am
troyguitar wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:11 am You made the right call. I'm interested to hear what you think about the WRG4 in the snow.
I’ll update this over the months.
Please do. I’m interested to see a non-Toyota “regular person” review.
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fledonfoot wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:39 pm
Dbest wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:02 am

I’ll update this over the months.
Please do. I’m interested to see a non-Toyota “regular person” review.
I’m skeptically optimistic and craving powder days
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Dbest wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:19 am This is why I like this forum.

I asked this a couple other places as well and the responses were soooo stupid. It ranged from telling me to buy all terrain tires, to trying to explain that “snow tires” with M+S designation (all seasons) aren’t as good as tires with snowflake (like both of the tires I was considering). One person said “ If you want All Season it's a no brainer get the Michelin Defender LTX M/S a PROVEN tire not brand new to the market..and mud and snow rated...” like no, I don’t want all seasons, I never said anything about considering all seasons, and are you trying to say you’ve never heard of Nokian?

My personal favorite was “ If I spent that much for winter tires my car would get rear ended and totaled next week. I've driven street tires on ice and studs were outlawed in Virginia two weeks before an ice storm, in 1966, so bad the newer cars wheels were spinning at the traffic lights and they went nowhere.
One time our 1950 Dodge (fluid drive) went to a Pennsylvania ski resort, can't remember if it was Blue Knob or Seven Springs. It snowed two feet while we were there and we couldn't get out of the parking lot, so we bought ski boot laces and tied them around the Dodge's wheels, Drove it 40 miles to the cleared turnpike, before they disintegrated.
Maybe the less expensive set and something to get you through the really bad spots?
I also damn near drowned in the pool 4 hours after dinner, when I got cramps just about everywhere you could imagine and had to hand paddle my way 20 feet to the ladder, couldn't move arms or legs or get my head out of the water.
55 years ago.”






So In the end, I think we decided we’re going to go with the WRG4 as the one set to use year round. This is another COVID winter so we’ll see what happens with ski season, but regardless if the doesn’t doesn’t come out by Thursday wifey gets induced Friday. All things considered I feel like this year provides better timing to try out the cheaper more convenient single tire route. If we aren’t satisfied next year we can add the second set of dedicated winters and wheels.
So much :wtf:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
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wap wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:46 pm
Dbest wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:19 am This is why I like this forum.

I asked this a couple other places as well and the responses were soooo stupid. It ranged from telling me to buy all terrain tires, to trying to explain that “snow tires” with M+S designation (all seasons) aren’t as good as tires with snowflake (like both of the tires I was considering). One person said “ If you want All Season it's a no brainer get the Michelin Defender LTX M/S a PROVEN tire not brand new to the market..and mud and snow rated...” like no, I don’t want all seasons, I never said anything about considering all seasons, and are you trying to say you’ve never heard of Nokian?

My personal favorite was “ If I spent that much for winter tires my car would get rear ended and totaled next week. I've driven street tires on ice and studs were outlawed in Virginia two weeks before an ice storm, in 1966, so bad the newer cars wheels were spinning at the traffic lights and they went nowhere.
One time our 1950 Dodge (fluid drive) went to a Pennsylvania ski resort, can't remember if it was Blue Knob or Seven Springs. It snowed two feet while we were there and we couldn't get out of the parking lot, so we bought ski boot laces and tied them around the Dodge's wheels, Drove it 40 miles to the cleared turnpike, before they disintegrated.
Maybe the less expensive set and something to get you through the really bad spots?
I also damn near drowned in the pool 4 hours after dinner, when I got cramps just about everywhere you could imagine and had to hand paddle my way 20 feet to the ladder, couldn't move arms or legs or get my head out of the water.
55 years ago.”






So In the end, I think we decided we’re going to go with the WRG4 as the one set to use year round. This is another COVID winter so we’ll see what happens with ski season, but regardless if the doesn’t doesn’t come out by Thursday wifey gets induced Friday. All things considered I feel like this year provides better timing to try out the cheaper more convenient single tire route. If we aren’t satisfied next year we can add the second set of dedicated winters and wheels.
So much :wtf:
:dafuq:, silly :jackass:
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Dbest wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:19 am This is why I like this forum.

I asked this a couple other places as well and the responses were soooo stupid. It ranged from telling me to buy all terrain tires, to trying to explain that “snow tires” with M+S designation (all seasons) aren’t as good as tires with snowflake (like both of the tires I was considering). One person said “ If you want All Season it's a no brainer get the Michelin Defender LTX M/S a PROVEN tire not brand new to the market..and mud and snow rated...” like no, I don’t want all seasons, I never said anything about considering all seasons, and are you trying to say you’ve never heard of Nokian?

My personal favorite was “ If I spent that much for winter tires my car would get rear ended and totaled next week. I've driven street tires on ice and studs were outlawed in Virginia two weeks before an ice storm, in 1966, so bad the newer cars wheels were spinning at the traffic lights and they went nowhere.
One time our 1950 Dodge (fluid drive) went to a Pennsylvania ski resort, can't remember if it was Blue Knob or Seven Springs. It snowed two feet while we were there and we couldn't get out of the parking lot, so we bought ski boot laces and tied them around the Dodge's wheels, Drove it 40 miles to the cleared turnpike, before they disintegrated.
Maybe the less expensive set and something to get you through the really bad spots?
I also damn near drowned in the pool 4 hours after dinner, when I got cramps just about everywhere you could imagine and had to hand paddle my way 20 feet to the ladder, couldn't move arms or legs or get my head out of the water.
55 years ago.”





So In the end, I think we decided we’re going to go with the WRG4 as the one set to use year round. This is another COVID winter so we’ll see what happens with ski season, but regardless if the doesn’t doesn’t come out by Thursday wifey gets induced Friday. All things considered I feel like this year provides better timing to try out the cheaper more convenient single tire route. If we aren’t satisfied next year we can add the second set of dedicated winters and wheels.
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I too am VERY curious to hear about the all weather tires. I hope this segment gains in popularity.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:56 pm I too am VERY curious to hear about the all weather tires. I hope this segment gains in popularity.
:dat:

It sounds to me like you made the better choice, plenty of money saved and all of the other inconveniences avoided. I get running two sets of tires in extreme cases but it is a pain in the ass (coming from someone who does have two sets). Not worth it on a Highlander all around vehicle, assuming the All Weathers can perform. I've never experienced true winter tires, but always thought they would be challenging anywhere where those 60F days are common enough in the winter.
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D Griff wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:40 pm
Detroit wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:56 pm I too am VERY curious to hear about the all weather tires. I hope this segment gains in popularity.
:dat:

It sounds to me like you made the better choice, plenty of money saved and all of the other inconveniences avoided. I get running two sets of tires in extreme cases but it is a pain in the ass (coming from someone who does have two sets). Not worth it on a Highlander all around vehicle, assuming the All Weathers can perform. I've never experienced true winter tires, but always thought they would be challenging anywhere where those 60F days are common enough in the winter.
Yeah I think in the end giving all weather tires a fair shot is a good idea. The weather is crazy unpredictable. For example a few years ago my wife and I rode our bikes (bicycles) up Mount Evans. It was 4th of July weekend, it was pushing 90 in Denver, it was 70 where we parked, and it was in the 30s with light snow during our bike ride up to 14,130 feet. I feel like never being unprepared is an all around better option than hopefully being well prepared.
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Dbest wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:34 pm
D Griff wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:40 pm

:dat:

It sounds to me like you made the better choice, plenty of money saved and all of the other inconveniences avoided. I get running two sets of tires in extreme cases but it is a pain in the ass (coming from someone who does have two sets). Not worth it on a Highlander all around vehicle, assuming the All Weathers can perform. I've never experienced true winter tires, but always thought they would be challenging anywhere where those 60F days are common enough in the winter.
Yeah I think in the end giving all weather tires a fair shot is a good idea. The weather is crazy unpredictable. For example a few years ago my wife and I rode our bikes (bicycles) up Mount Evans. It was 4th of July weekend, it was pushing 90 in Denver, it was 70 where we parked, and it was in the 30s with light snow during our bike ride up to 14,130 feet. I feel like never being unprepared is an all around better option than hopefully being well prepared.
This type of tire is perfect for this kind of situation. You’re covered for 95% of what you’ll run in to.
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Dbest wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:34 pm
D Griff wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:40 pm

:dat:

It sounds to me like you made the better choice, plenty of money saved and all of the other inconveniences avoided. I get running two sets of tires in extreme cases but it is a pain in the ass (coming from someone who does have two sets). Not worth it on a Highlander all around vehicle, assuming the All Weathers can perform. I've never experienced true winter tires, but always thought they would be challenging anywhere where those 60F days are common enough in the winter.
Yeah I think in the end giving all weather tires a fair shot is a good idea. The weather is crazy unpredictable. For example a few years ago my wife and I rode our bikes (bicycles) up Mount Evans. It was 4th of July weekend, it was pushing 90 in Denver, it was 70 where we parked, and it was in the 30s with light snow during our bike ride up to 14,130 feet. I feel like never being unprepared is an all around better option than hopefully being well prepared.
Damn you should get in on the cycling thread :mahman:

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D Griff wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:42 am
Damn you should get in on the cycling thread :mahman:

In4stravalink
https://strava.app.link/y4n0u4pZlbb

Mount Evans, the highest paved road in North America and because of some construction it was closed to cars.

We loaded up the bikes and took the truck to Echo Lake where we started our ride.
Image

You could see treeline getting closer
Image

My wife grinding away
Image
Image

Plenty of snow in July
Image

Summit Lake
Image

Still climbing
Image
Image

Still climbing
Image

Almost there
Image

14,130 feet above sea level. It was f'n COLD, windy, and we got snowed on.
Image

We were out of our element and into theirs
Image
Image
Image
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Dbest wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:03 am
D Griff wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:42 am
Damn you should get in on the cycling thread :mahman:

In4stravalink
https://strava.app.link/y4n0u4pZlbb

Mount Evans, the highest paved road in North America and because of some construction it was closed to cars.

We loaded up the bikes and took the truck to Echo Lake where we started our ride.
Awesome pics, thanks for sharing! That looks like an amazing ride, I hope to get out west to do some riding once the 'VID finally comes to some kind of close.

:impressive: that your wife did that climb on a mountain bike.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:42 am
Dbest wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:03 am

https://strava.app.link/y4n0u4pZlbb

Mount Evans, the highest paved road in North America and because of some construction it was closed to cars.

We loaded up the bikes and took the truck to Echo Lake where we started our ride.
Awesome pics, thanks for sharing! That looks like an amazing ride, I hope to get out west to do some riding once the 'VID finally comes to some kind of close.

:impressive: that your wife did that climb on a mountain bike.

We both took our bike with the lowest granny gear, almost 4000 feet of elevation gain in 15 miles at altitudes that are hard to breath at even walking, you’re in the granny gear for hours lol.

I’d die if I attempted it today. Once the first kid we pretty much gave up cycling for a couple years, got fat, and took up hiking because our son could come.

He’s 4 now and with singletrack in the front yard he’s all about his bike.
Image

Image

Image

Image

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Dbest
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So the plot thickens on this a little bit. I started researching the tires that were installed by the dealer during the used car inspection.

Here’s consumer reports take on things...

Image

The Nokians have better dry braking, wet braking, and ride comfort. The Michelins have better rolling resistance and tread wear. But all in all they are rated pretty comparably.

Now I’m struggling with the value of making a change at all.

The Nokians still have the 3PMSF designation and the Michelins don’t, that’s the legal difference between needing chains or not under the most restrictive traction laws. The requisite test to qualify for that is a spin test (ASTM E1136-14) that measures acceleration traction in medium-packed snow - typical of what you’d drive in between passes of a plow during a snow storm. Both are reared very highly for snow traction but I highly doubt the Michelins could pass the test but would choose not to. With that much higher tread life it has to be a harder compound with less grip, but by how much. I’d like to do a side by side winter drive with them.
Last edited by Dbest on Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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