Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

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Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:34 am
[user not found] wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:31 pm

The infinity combo thing is great, though. You can spec a bare bones Bronco with the Sasquatch package. That's awesome.
It's great for the customer, a nightmare of the OEM...who has had challenges with simpler launches in recent past (Explorer last year).

If the Bronco launch goes remotely well, I'll be amazed. I actually really like the product, Ferd just sucks.
I'm not in the loop on Ford quality/product issues. Is there a company wide/systemic issue with the brand?
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:58 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:34 am
It's great for the customer, a nightmare of the OEM...who has had challenges with simpler launches in recent past (Explorer last year).

If the Bronco launch goes remotely well, I'll be amazed. I actually really like the product, Ferd just sucks.
I'm not in the loop on Ford quality/product issues. Is there a company wide/systemic issue with the brand?
The Explorer launch last year was a well documented nightmare. They were shipping quite a few units from Chicago to Detroit for rework due to issues. And that vehicle doesn't have anywhere near the build complexity that the Bronco does. Explorer was also in an existing plant, whereas Bronco is in a heavily renewed plant. So a brand new platform, in a brand new plant, with infinite build combinations seems like a very tall order for existing Ford mgmt.

That said, I'm sure there's many jobs on the line to get the launch right, so they're going to do everything they can I'm sure. Still, I wouldn't buy a first MY Bronco...
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:05 am
Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:58 am

I'm not in the loop on Ford quality/product issues. Is there a company wide/systemic issue with the brand?
The Explorer launch last year was a well documented nightmare. They were shipping quite a few units from Chicago to Detroit for rework due to issues. And that vehicle doesn't have anywhere near the build complexity that the Bronco does. Explorer was also in an existing plant, whereas Bronco is in a heavily renewed plant. So a brand new platform, in a brand new plant, with infinite build combinations seems like a very tall order for existing Ford mgmt.

That said, I'm sure there's many jobs on the line to get the launch right, so they're going to do everything they can I'm sure. Still, I wouldn't buy a first MY Bronco...
Yikes, seems like the "Exploder" moniker follows it around generationally:

"There was a vapor fuel leak that increased the chances of the car catching on fire if not taken care of quickly. "

And this from The Truth About Cars:

"A report last month detailed numerous issues plaguing 2020 Explorers and Aviators. As workers at Flat Rock, joined by available employees at other plants, worked flat-out to mend the vehicles, the automaker was forced to keep thousands of showroom-ready units sitting idle for up to a month. Both the Explorer and Aviator are crucial vehicles for their respective brands."


Yeah it sounds like they are flying by the seat of their pants to get these things out the door at any cost.
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:19 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:05 am
The Explorer launch last year was a well documented nightmare. They were shipping quite a few units from Chicago to Detroit for rework due to issues. And that vehicle doesn't have anywhere near the build complexity that the Bronco does. Explorer was also in an existing plant, whereas Bronco is in a heavily renewed plant. So a brand new platform, in a brand new plant, with infinite build combinations seems like a very tall order for existing Ford mgmt.

That said, I'm sure there's many jobs on the line to get the launch right, so they're going to do everything they can I'm sure. Still, I wouldn't buy a first MY Bronco...
Yikes, seems like the "Exploder" moniker follows it around generationally:

"There was a vapor fuel leak that increased the chances of the car catching on fire if not taken care of quickly. "

And this from The Truth About Cars:

"A report last month detailed numerous issues plaguing 2020 Explorers and Aviators. As workers at Flat Rock, joined by available employees at other plants, worked flat-out to mend the vehicles, the automaker was forced to keep thousands of showroom-ready units sitting idle for up to a month. Both the Explorer and Aviator are crucial vehicles for their respective brands."


Yeah it sounds like they are flying by the seat of their pants to get these things out the door at any cost.
Apparently these issues are resolved now, but it was really bad for the first 6 months of production. Someone underestimated what it takes to get a new vehicle and platform produced...which is :mindblown: to me at an established OEM like Ford.

Not only are they launching the Bronco, they're also launching a "new" F-150 in the same year. Those two are mega programs for the company and likely tying up significant resources. It seems rather ambitious to me...usually truck programs are the only major launch in a year because screwing up the truck is not an option. GM and FCA treat them as such.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:25 am
Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:19 am

Yikes, seems like the "Exploder" moniker follows it around generationally:

"There was a vapor fuel leak that increased the chances of the car catching on fire if not taken care of quickly. "

And this from The Truth About Cars:

"A report last month detailed numerous issues plaguing 2020 Explorers and Aviators. As workers at Flat Rock, joined by available employees at other plants, worked flat-out to mend the vehicles, the automaker was forced to keep thousands of showroom-ready units sitting idle for up to a month. Both the Explorer and Aviator are crucial vehicles for their respective brands."


Yeah it sounds like they are flying by the seat of their pants to get these things out the door at any cost.
Apparently these issues are resolved now, but it was really bad for the first 6 months of production. Someone underestimated what it takes to get a new vehicle and platform produced...which is :mindblown: to me at an established OEM like Ford.

Not only are they launching the Bronco, they're also launching a "new" F-150 in the same year. Those two are mega programs for the company and likely tying up significant resources. It seems rather ambitious to me...usually truck programs are the only major launch in a year because screwing up the truck is not an option. GM and FCA treat them as such.
Oh man, I'd love to be a fly on the wall of those launch meetings! I was on the shop floor for the release of the 2004 LX and it was hilarious to see these launch guys go off the handle when things didn't go well, and that was a fairly good launch with a solid plan. One fucker picked up a chair and threw it at the wall in a meeting :D
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:30 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:25 am
Apparently these issues are resolved now, but it was really bad for the first 6 months of production. Someone underestimated what it takes to get a new vehicle and platform produced...which is :mindblown: to me at an established OEM like Ford.

Not only are they launching the Bronco, they're also launching a "new" F-150 in the same year. Those two are mega programs for the company and likely tying up significant resources. It seems rather ambitious to me...usually truck programs are the only major launch in a year because screwing up the truck is not an option. GM and FCA treat them as such.
Oh man, I'd love to be a fly on the wall of those launch meetings! I was on the shop floor for the release of the 2004 LX and it was hilarious to see these launch guys go off the handle when things didn't go well, and that was a fairly good launch with a solid plan. One fucker picked up a chair and threw it at the wall in a meeting :D
That guy should be fired. Wow
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:31 am
Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:58 am

I'm not in the loop on Ford quality/product issues. Is there a company wide/systemic issue with the brand?
I'd say it's bad at the dealer level - lots of 'not my problem' going on, old school mentality.

When I had my 2012 Focus, the Ford customer care rep was actually pretty fantastic when I was dealing with the front suspension clunking, but it all fell apart at the dealer level when it came time to execute.

Beyond that, they seem to botch launches a bit - beancounting is an issue across the board.
They should pick one of the two to be good at; either launch good cars or provide excellent warranty support. Yoda tries to do both and is probably one of the most significant attributes of that company.
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:39 am
Tarspin wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:30 am

Oh man, I'd love to be a fly on the wall of those launch meetings! I was on the shop floor for the release of the 2004 LX and it was hilarious to see these launch guys go off the handle when things didn't go well, and that was a fairly good launch with a solid plan. One fucker picked up a chair and threw it at the wall in a meeting :D
That guy should be fired. Wow
He didn't stick around very long. There was definitely a culture of angry yelling and freaking out, neither of which did any good and probably added animosity to everyone. Fifteen years later, it is night and day. Everything from cultural tolerance to cleanliness has improved. As much as people bitch about "WCM" - a FIAT initiative, the plants have never looked and operated better.
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Here is an actual video of it. It does seem really :neat: but it depends on a lot of things and the Yaris stigma is a tough one

It really reminds me of the Megane 265 I drove back in Australia. Tons of fun but hot hatches do get old as well from a DD perspective
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:29 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:26 pm

Here is an actual video of it. It does seem really :neat: but it depends on a lot of things and the Yaris stigma is a tough one

It really reminds me of the Megane 265 I drove back in Australia. Tons of fun but hot hatches do get old as well from a DD perspective
I've always liked the Yaris. :iono:

But I get it, tons of people think it's a cheap shitbox with no aspirations.
I mean when you have a Mini Cooper GP around ... that’s my current “want” vehicle even though it’s the ungodly automatic and wrong wheel drive
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[user not found] wrote:
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:40 pm I mean when you have a Mini Cooper GP around ... that’s my current “want” vehicle even though it’s the ungodly automatic and wrong wheel drive
I'm a MINI geek through and through... but I'd take the GR Yaris in this case.
I'd test drive one if it came here. Dunno if I'd hate the seating position, but probably.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:45 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:40 pm

I mean when you have a Mini Cooper GP around ... that’s my current “want” vehicle even though it’s the ungodly automatic and wrong wheel drive
I'm a MINI geek through and through... but I'd take the GR Yaris in this case.
It will be a future collectible for sure. :yikes: Oh to have a 10 car garage.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:22 pm

:jelly:
This is actually my current dream car.

There’s rumors this drivetrain will end up in the Corolla hatch. My brother in law has the hatch in XSE trim and it’s actually a fun little car.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:05 am That said, I'm sure there's many jobs on the line to get the launch right, so they're going to do everything they can I'm sure. Still, I wouldn't buy a first MY Bronco...
I wouldn't buy a first MY anything.
Unless from Japan, but still.
4zilch wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:46 am I'm a fucking failure.
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Guys, question/proposition:

One of my close friends here is about to buy a Mustang and is looking to sell his FRS to Carvana. It’s a 2013, bone stock other than Borla exhaust, red, 90k miles, he’s the second owner, first was a 50 y.o. woman. The offer from Carvana is around $10.7k. Am I crazy to want to buy this and sell the Corvette?

Pros:
10 years newer/less miles
Close to break even on price
Always loved the 86 and have casually wanted one
Car is smaller
Has back seat for dog
Better steering/shifting/low speed fun car
I prefer the color

Cons:
Slow
No targa
No V8 noises
Less cargo space
Slow
2013s were first model year
Slow

Any feedback?
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I really do love the C5, but man, it’s been almost 6.5 years, I’d kind of like to mix it up.
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D Griff wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:48 am I really do love the C5, but man, it’s been almost 6.5 years, I’d kind of like to mix it up.
You'd be downgrading in just about every way other than newness and interior quality. If you're ok with that and just want to mix things up, then sure. I'm sure the car is plenty of fun, just in a different way.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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D Griff wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:48 am I really do love the C5, but man, it’s been almost 6.5 years, I’d kind of like to mix it up.
+1 for new experience. Cheaper and more rewarding to track too.

But ultimately I think you’ll end up comparing it to the C5 and be disappointed.
As the only published author in a well-known motorcycle publication in the room...
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Detroit wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:25 am
D Griff wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:48 am I really do love the C5, but man, it’s been almost 6.5 years, I’d kind of like to mix it up.
You'd be downgrading in just about every way other than newness and interior quality. If you're ok with that and just want to mix things up, then sure. I'm sure the car is plenty of fun, just in a different way.
I see it more as lateral/different. It’s worse on power and sound, better on responsiveness, feel, weight.

I have thought about/missed Miatas recently but they’re just too damn small to do anything.

If I go for it I’m sure I’d miss power eventually.

Wife thinks it’s stupid because “you love the Corvette and don’t drive”. She said she’s fine with it if I want to though.
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Have you driven it? Could you build/ :tuna: it to get some of the speed differential back?
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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By "could", I mean "would you be interested in"
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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D Griff wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:46 am Guys, question/proposition:

One of my close friends here is about to buy a Mustang and is looking to sell his FRS to Carvana. It’s a 2013, bone stock other than Borla exhaust, red, 90k miles, he’s the second owner, first was a 50 y.o. woman. The offer from Carvana is around $10.7k. Am I crazy to want to buy this and sell the Corvette?

Pros:
10 years newer/less miles
Close to break even on price
Always loved the 86 and have casually wanted one
Car is smaller
Has back seat for dog
Better steering/shifting/low speed fun car
I prefer the color

Cons:
Slow
No targa
No V8 noises
Less cargo space
Slow
2013s were first model year
Slow

Any feedback?
Do you care about straight line acceleration? If not this is the better car
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wap wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:22 am By "could", I mean "would you be interested in"
:iono: maybe a :tuna: to eliminate the torque dip, probably not a supercharger or anything. Wheels and tires would be the main mod planned, not sure how long I would rock this car but there’s only so much to go down from $11k so :aintcare:

It already has exhaust which is a nice benefit.
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max225 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:28 am
D Griff wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:46 am Guys, question/proposition:

One of my close friends here is about to buy a Mustang and is looking to sell his FRS to Carvana. It’s a 2013, bone stock other than Borla exhaust, red, 90k miles, he’s the second owner, first was a 50 y.o. woman. The offer from Carvana is around $10.7k. Am I crazy to want to buy this and sell the Corvette?

Pros:
10 years newer/less miles
Close to break even on price
Always loved the 86 and have casually wanted one
Car is smaller
Has back seat for dog
Better steering/shifting/low speed fun car
I prefer the color

Cons:
Slow
No targa
No V8 noises
Less cargo space
Slow
2013s were first model year
Slow

Any feedback?
Do you care about straight line acceleration? If not this is the better car
I do of course care to an extent, it is fun on the street to have power, on track/in the city, meh.
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D Griff wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:27 am
max225 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:28 am
Do you care about straight line acceleration? If not this is the better car
I do of course care to an extent, it is fun on the street to have power, on track/in the city, meh.
Can you borrow it for a couple days? I feel like it's a compromise when you already have a family car. Also everyone I know who's had one ends up doing tires/suspension and shit then ends up thinking the car is less fun on the street because not enough power. I get wanting to be able to take the dog without needing the Jeep, but you won't be having fun driving nicely for the dog so just take the Jeep or buy a cheap beatr.
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