Car Talk 4: The Richard Hertz Rent-A-Car 500

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D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:42 am I've driven an E90 XDrive as some level of comparison... the hydraulic steering in that was definitely better than the electric in my F30.
:dat: I have only driven an e92 328xi and that's really the only thing about the car, but it felt like a boat anchor compared to my mk6
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4zilch wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:27 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:24 am

Am I chopped liver?

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I guess I haven't heard your opinions, but now that I think about the GTI and fancy mx5, you're one of us too. :amaze:
Yes. I am a fan of the DCT.

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brain go brrrrrr
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D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:41 am
Swedish Chef wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:59 am

That’s why I’d like to try one without xDrive cause even if it perhaps won’t be great, it should be miles better than what I was experiencing for a year behind the wheel of mine.

I’ve driven a Stelvio on two different occasions and was positively surprised both times over how nice they drive.
Not a whole lot of feel obviously but super quick steering that’s actually fun to throw left & right.
If you're ever in Charlotte, you're welcome to take mine for a trip to pound town.
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Stopped by last weekend in fact to pick up my new phone at the Northlake Mall.
D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:42 am I've driven an E90 XDrive as some level of comparison... the hydraulic steering in that was definitely better than the electric in my F30.
That’s why I kind of wanted an E90 but F trying to find one with a stick and M pkg that isn’t a billion dollars.
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D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:09 am
Swedish Chef wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:35 pm I really need to drive a RWD F30 cause my xDrive F31 with M Pkg & 19” drove like absolute shite.
Tall and boaty suspension and with what I believe is the worst steering feel in the segment.

I remember traveling in Norway with a V60 D6 rental (diesel PHEV, look it up) and hated how stiff but lifeless the steering was, and thinking how I missed my BMW parked at the airport.
Flew back, got in my car and immediately thought something was wrong but realized the steering was just as crap as the Volvo, just super light instead of stiff. :flaccid:
:lolol: it’s not that great...

It’s your basic “drives better than an economy car or SUV but not as good as a Civic Si or GTI” honestly. With the exhaust and manual it’s fun-ish for commuting.
:dat: sums it up
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Ballz, just played around with the rustang configurator... You can't get cloth recaros with the 10AT on the GT and you can't get them on the turbro at all.

A turbro with leather recarbros, 10AT, handling package = $43xxx msrp.

GT with the same is $48xxx.

:waxer: :nope:
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Swedish Chef wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:52 am
D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:41 am

If you're ever in Charlotte, you're welcome to take mine for a trip to pound town.
:sissyfight:

Stopped by last weekend in fact to pick up my new phone at the Northlake Mall.
D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:42 am I've driven an E90 XDrive as some level of comparison... the hydraulic steering in that was definitely better than the electric in my F30.
That’s why I kind of wanted an E90 but F trying to find one with a stick and M pkg that isn’t a billion dollars.
Aw man we could've :dock:

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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:25 pm Ballz, just played around with the rustang configurator... You can't get cloth recaros with the 10AT on the GT and you can't get them on the turbro at all.

A turbro with leather recarbros, 10AT, handling package = $43xxx msrp.

GT with the same is $48xxx.

:waxer: :nope:
:disgust: but it is what it is. Nice things cost money
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max225 wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:25 pm Ballz, just played around with the rustang configurator... You can't get cloth recaros with the 10AT on the GT and you can't get them on the turbro at all.

A turbro with leather recarbros, 10AT, handling package = $43xxx msrp.

GT with the same is $48xxx.

:waxer: :nope:
:disgust: but it is what it is. Nice things cost money
:sad:

I passed on a GT with track pack and cloth recarbros for $28k in 2011 because the insurance cost and interest rate was going to be too high, now the equivalent car is like 70% more expensive. I hate cars.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:51 pm
max225 wrote:
:disgust: but it is what it is. Nice things cost money
:sad:

I passed on a GT with track pack and cloth recarbros for $28k in 2011 because the insurance cost and interest rate was going to be too high, now the equivalent car is like 70% more expensive. I hate cars.
I mean my mini was 45k :disgust: a mustang for 48k makes some more sense .. loaded civics are 30k...
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Inflation is a bitch.

Like Max said, we're just old guys reminiscing about $.10 gas now.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I'm more bitching about options requiring other options.

Why does the non-heated, non-cooled Recaro sport seat option require the $5000 premium package?

Why does the track handling package require the $5000 engine package AND the $2000 interior package?

That's $12000 in options that I don't want in order to get $3600 in options that I do want.

The car as I would configure it if possible:

Base car $26670
10AT $1595
Cloth recarbros $1595
Handling package $1995

Total $31855, not $43605.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:05 pm I'm more bitching about options requiring other options.

Why does the non-heated, non-cooled Recaro sport seat option require the $5000 premium package?

Why does the track handling package require the $5000 engine package AND the $2000 interior package?

That's $12000 in options that I don't want in order to get $3600 in options that I do want.

The car as I would configure it if possible:

Base car $26670
10AT $1595
Cloth recarbros $1595
Handling package $1995

Total $31855, not $43605.
There's a trend in the industry right now to reduce possible build combinations. The thought is the simpler it is to build a vehicle, the cheaper it will be to engineer and produce. While this is valid, they mostly have bean counters working on these initiatives.

I guarantee you some overpaid MBA genius who has no idea what a car even is and idolizes Elon had a report of take rates run and then bundled random shit together to get the build count down. Further, there's a good chance that the computer used in the premium package is used to power the Recaros (assuming they're power adjustable), which reduces the need for more computers, or wiring harnesses, or some random shit.

I've been battling this in my current job. It's torture because I agree with you 100%.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:33 pm
troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:05 pm I'm more bitching about options requiring other options.

Why does the non-heated, non-cooled Recaro sport seat option require the $5000 premium package?

Why does the track handling package require the $5000 engine package AND the $2000 interior package?

That's $12000 in options that I don't want in order to get $3600 in options that I do want.

The car as I would configure it if possible:

Base car $26670
10AT $1595
Cloth recarbros $1595
Handling package $1995

Total $31855, not $43605.
There's a trend in the industry right now to reduce possible build combinations. The thought is the simpler it is to build a vehicle, the cheaper it will be to engineer and produce. While this is valid, they mostly have bean counters working on these initiatives.

I guarantee you some overpaid MBA genius who has no idea what a car even is and idolizes Elon had a report of take rates run and then bundled random shit together to get the build count down. Further, there's a good chance that the computer used in the premium package is used to power the Recaros (assuming they're power adjustable), which reduces the need for more computers, or wiring harnesses, or some random shit.

I've been battling this in my current job. It's torture because I agree with you 100%.
:disgust: Dem MBA bean counters are prevalent everywhere :doe: , only way to avoid them is working at very small companies.
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Whatever the reasons, they've ensured that I won't buy one. I'm not paying almost 40% extra - all of which is instantly flushed down the toilet of depreciation because options add no resale value - for shit that I don't even want. That's not a minor expense.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:05 pm I'm more bitching about options requiring other options.

Why does the non-heated, non-cooled Recaro sport seat option require the $5000 premium package?

Why does the track handling package require the $5000 engine package AND the $2000 interior package?

That's $12000 in options that I don't want in order to get $3600 in options that I do want.

The car as I would configure it if possible:

Base car $26670
10AT $1595
Cloth recarbros $1595
Handling package $1995

Total $31855, not $43605.
Are there any on the lots already with those packages? There's probably $5k on the hood of a few cars.
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D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:55 pm
Detroit wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:33 pm
There's a trend in the industry right now to reduce possible build combinations. The thought is the simpler it is to build a vehicle, the cheaper it will be to engineer and produce. While this is valid, they mostly have bean counters working on these initiatives.

I guarantee you some overpaid MBA genius who has no idea what a car even is and idolizes Elon had a report of take rates run and then bundled random shit together to get the build count down. Further, there's a good chance that the computer used in the premium package is used to power the Recaros (assuming they're power adjustable), which reduces the need for more computers, or wiring harnesses, or some random shit.

I've been battling this in my current job. It's torture because I agree with you 100%.
:disgust: Dem MBA bean counters are prevalent everywhere :doe: , only way to avoid them is working at very small companies.
Exactly.

I have my MBA and can battle with them in their speak. They're lack of interest in product and customer is :mindblown:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:56 pm Whatever the reasons, they've ensured that I won't buy one. I'm not paying almost 40% extra - all of which is instantly flushed down the toilet of depreciation because options add no resale value - for shit that I don't even want. That's not a minor expense.
Yep, totally get it. That's my concern with all of these initiatives. Forcing people to buy a bunch of shit they don't want to get the one feature they do will turn them off from the vehicle entirely. On a vehicle like the Mustang, with buyers who are highly passionate looking for the exact vehicle that fits what they want, you can't really mess with it too much.

Someone at Ford who has no idea what the car is and the target market decided that Recaros are a premium option and they're executing to that plan. Makes zero sense to us, but perfect sense to me as an industry douche considering how few people care about the things they're working on.

I've really grown to hate this industry.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:51 pm
max225 wrote:
:disgust: but it is what it is. Nice things cost money
:sad:

I passed on a GT with track pack and cloth recarbros for $28k in 2011 because the insurance cost and interest rate was going to be too high, now the equivalent car is like 70% more expensive. I hate cars.
BUT, they also depreciate pretty quickly. You can pick a loaded 2016 GT up for low 20s all day.

The 2014 was a good leap from the 2011s too.
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Detroit wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:19 pm
D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:55 pm

:disgust: Dem MBA bean counters are prevalent everywhere :doe: , only way to avoid them is working at very small companies.
Exactly.

I have my MBA and can battle with them in their speak. They're lack of interest in product and customer is :mindblown:
Yep, they have their “data science”, spreadsheets, and analytics. :whocares: what customers actually want. We’re all just data points anyway.
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D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:31 pm
Detroit wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:19 pm
Exactly.

I have my MBA and can battle with them in their speak. They're lack of interest in product and customer is :mindblown:
Yep, they have their “data science”, spreadsheets, and analytics. :whocares: what customers actually want. We’re all just data points anyway.
The hardest thing for me is using data to convey a story like this...because you can't.

Me: "Customers are into performance events and would like the performance seats on a base car"

MBA: "Show me data to prove it"

Me: :notwrong:

I've actually used forum and blog posts in the past as "data" to help build cases for things I believe strongly in, but even that's wobbly at best when they have countless customer research studies and whatever other :bs: to source. "Because it's the right thing to do" isn't really a valid argument anymore unfortunately...and with nobody that cares enough to know, there's no way around the data.

This is why I always preach how important it is to vote with your wallet. Product planners need actual data to support these decisions.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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dubshow wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:51 pm :sad:

I passed on a GT with track pack and cloth recarbros for $28k in 2011 because the insurance cost and interest rate was going to be too high, now the equivalent car is like 70% more expensive. I hate cars.
BUT, they also depreciate pretty quickly. You can pick a loaded 2016 GT up for low 20s all day.

The 2014 was a good leap from the 2011s too.
2020 is the first year for a proper handling package with square wheels and big sway bars :doe:

Maybe in a few years some moran who bought one for $43k will sell it for $19995. :plac:
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Detroit wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:36 pm
D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:31 pm

Yep, they have their “data science”, spreadsheets, and analytics. :whocares: what customers actually want. We’re all just data points anyway.
The hardest thing for me is using data to convey a story like this...because you can't.

Me: "Customers are into performance events and would like the performance seats on a base car"

MBA: "Show me data to prove it"

Me: :notwrong:

I've actually used forum and blog posts in the past as "data" to help build cases for things I believe strongly in, but even that's wobbly at best when they have countless customer research studies and whatever other :bs: to source. "Because it's the right thing to do" isn't really a valid argument anymore unfortunately...and with nobody that cares enough to know, there's no way around the data.

This is why I always preach how important it is to vote with your wallet. Product planners need actual data to support these decisions.
:word: I mean they’re :notwrong:

At this point I just doubt I’ll be super interested in new cars going forward and that’s fine... all a little sad though.
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Detroit wrote:
D Griff wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:31 pm Yep, they have their “data science”, spreadsheets, and analytics. :whocares: what customers actually want. We’re all just data points anyway.
The hardest thing for me is using data to convey a story like this...because you can't.

Me: "Customers are into performance events and would like the performance seats on a base car"

MBA: "Show me data to prove it"

Me: :notwrong:

I've actually used forum and blog posts in the past as "data" to help build cases for things I believe strongly in, but even that's wobbly at best when they have countless customer research studies and whatever other :bs: to source. "Because it's the right thing to do" isn't really a valid argument anymore unfortunately...and with nobody that cares enough to know, there's no way around the data.

This is why I always preach how important it is to vote with your wallet. Product planners need actual data to support these decisions.
Easy to vote with your wallet when you make huge bank, get employee deals, and just want a truck like everyone else.

The best I can do is to not buy things that I can't afford in the hopes that maybe someone will make fun things that aren't $40k+ but that's not really helping. What else do I do, spend money I don't have on things that I don't really want?
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Detroit wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:55 pm Inflation is a bitch.

Like Max said, we're just old guys reminiscing about $.10 gas now.
When I was like 20-21 (circa 2013) I was :fuckyeah: about gas prices going down to 3.79, then when I got mk7, the gas prices went down fast as fuck.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:42 pm
Detroit wrote: The hardest thing for me is using data to convey a story like this...because you can't.

Me: "Customers are into performance events and would like the performance seats on a base car"

MBA: "Show me data to prove it"

Me: :notwrong:

I've actually used forum and blog posts in the past as "data" to help build cases for things I believe strongly in, but even that's wobbly at best when they have countless customer research studies and whatever other :bs: to source. "Because it's the right thing to do" isn't really a valid argument anymore unfortunately...and with nobody that cares enough to know, there's no way around the data.

This is why I always preach how important it is to vote with your wallet. Product planners need actual data to support these decisions.
Easy to vote with your wallet when you make huge bank, get employee deals, and just want a truck like everyone else.

The best I can do is to not buy things that I can't afford in the hopes that maybe someone will make fun things that aren't $40k+ but that's not really helping. What else do I do, spend money I don't have on things that I don't really want?
The next time something comes out in your price range that's close enough to what you want, buy it.

Clearly the Mustang is off the list...and that's good. If sales drop, they'll need to get creative with product offering.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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