Car Talk 4: The Richard Hertz Rent-A-Car 500

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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:35 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:33 am
I used to think GM had it all together until it went :fullretard: with the full-EV future and a lot of knee-jerk reactions to market dynamics that make little sense. I think the company is trying to match the "disruption" (I hate that fucking word) that startups manage while being a major corp with tight scrutiny of the balance sheet. It's not going to work.

FCA meanwhile is just producing great products that give people what they want. Refinement, excellent tech, and solid performance. I still think there's questionable long-term viability, but for now it's got everything lined up right.
Make the money and let everyone else waste it on electric bikes for broke losers and Bay Area white powder parties. Then once they blew hard earned dollars on nothing, pick up the remaining worthwhile pieces for pennies on the dollar
Right. Biggest question is timing. As long as gas stays cheap and the EV infrastructure remains underdeveloped, it'll be the right move for sure.

With the new Silverado being a dud, and the rest of the lineup sacrificed in the name of EVs, GM could be facing significant troubles in the next 5 years.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:04 am
Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:55 am

I like the Forester. Last gen is identical to my car inside which is fine but I'd want a change. New one is nice inside, decent I guess outside. Shame it doesn't have any balls. Over $30k for a new one though.... why not go used Benzo GLC for that much.
Man, I dunno. I've got a friend with one...and it just seems to meh to me. It's nice enough, but I have no idea why anyone would buy one over a RAV4 or something.
They're pretty much the same. Almost everything is the same in this class. I didn't detect much difference in ride and handling between a Forester, Rav4, or a CX5, and certainly no difference in acceleration. They're all slow, they all don't handle overly well, but can swallow potholes nicely (CX5 was a little stiff), and AWD for snow / dirt. IMO this class is the right size anymore, and the taller CUV body allows for more headroom and cargo room than the compact hatch counterparts.

I just don't know if I can deal with really low power. The Escape 1.5T I rented.... bleh. It was fine I guess but gag. The Rav4 was great around town, super responsive, no balls on the highway, but better than that 1.5T thing. The CX5 was meh all around power wise but drove more like a VW feeling like a more premium product. The Forester was more like the Rav around town, very responsive, but I question higher speed driving in it.

Maybe that doesn't matter. Not like I drive fast or aggressive at speed anyway. I'm usually cruising in the right lane. Lisa's Cmax is perfectly fine power wise and that's like 8 sec to 60 with a CVT (which I also like). New Forester is about a second slower. Rav gasser seems on par with the hybrid being quicker.

New cars in this class are expensive though. Over $30k is a big pill to swallow to give up on cars like this.
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Apex wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:35 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:34 am
They're a whole bunch of meh. I'm not sure why anyone buys one.
Because it works and they DGAF? :iono:
So does a CR-V, RAV4, CX5, Cherokee, Escape, Rogue, etc, etc, etc. It's a tough segment.
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Apex wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:14 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:11 am
My friend claims to just like the Subaru brand. Which...OK but there's just so many other compelling choices.
I'd look at a Subaru before a CRV or RAV4, personally. :iono:

A co-worker of mine traded her ~3 year old RAV4 in for a new one a couple of weeks ago. She doesn't like it nearly as much as her older one, but she was :doomed: on lease miles so made a :dill:
What's her beef with the new one? I didn't hate the old one. It drove competently, and had a very "lets go do whatever" attitude.
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Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:40 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:04 am
Man, I dunno. I've got a friend with one...and it just seems to meh to me. It's nice enough, but I have no idea why anyone would buy one over a RAV4 or something.
They're pretty much the same. Almost everything is the same in this class. I didn't detect much difference in ride and handling between a Forester, Rav4, or a CX5, and certainly no difference in acceleration. They're all slow, they all don't handle overly well, but can swallow potholes nicely (CX5 was a little stiff), and AWD for snow / dirt. IMO this class is the right size anymore, and the taller CUV body allows for more headroom and cargo room than the compact hatch counterparts.

I just don't know if I can deal with really low power. The Escape 1.5T I rented.... bleh. It was fine I guess but gag. The Rav4 was great around town, super responsive, no balls on the highway, but better than that 1.5T thing. The CX5 was meh all around power wise but drove more like a VW feeling like a more premium product. The Forester was more like the Rav around town, very responsive, but I question higher speed driving in it.

Maybe that doesn't matter. Not like I drive fast or aggressive at speed anyway. I'm usually cruising in the right lane. Lisa's Cmax is perfectly fine power wise and that's like 8 sec to 60 with a CVT (which I also like). New Forester is about a second slower. Rav gasser seems on par with the hybrid being quicker.

New cars in this class are expensive though. Over $30k is a big pill to swallow to give up on cars like this.
Right...they're all just so meh. I agree that the form factor has some benefits, but there's just nothing really exciting about any of them. Power is down because fuel economy is king now that the segment is the largest in the industry. As such, they need to appeal to wide range of buyers which ends up with a heaping pile of meh.

A plug-in would be really :notbad: :doe: Curious to see how that develops.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I don’t like the fact that a plug in adds 500-700lbs, $3000-5000 a lot of complexity and very little actual benefit with a shitty 25-50mile Range. At that point you might as well go electric or go home.

I would be ok with a 75-100 plug in range but that won’t happen. It seems like a seriously half assed solution
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Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:21 am
Apex wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:18 am

Edit: I was thinking Compass. My bad...

Cherokee looks have definitely grown on my lately, especially in TrailHawk trim.
Dis...

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My neighbor has that blue one in Trailhawk trim. Looks awesome.
I'm the only person in the world that prefers the older lizard face to this generic plastic fantastic one, but whatever. It doesn't look bad. I'd have a hard time choosing this over a Grand Cherokee. GC gets a far better chassis, rides better, RWD bias, far superior transmission, more robust 4x4 system, similar room inside, similar fuel mileage.
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Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:55 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:32 am
Forester? :bruh: :|
I like the Forester.
Cool.

I didn't know you transitioned over to become a middle aged lesbian.

Good for you Man.... err... Dude... err.. Ma'am.
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max225 wrote:I don’t like the fact that a plug in adds 500-700lbs, $3000-5000 a lot of complexity and very little actual benefit with a shitty 25-50mile Range. At that point you might as well go electric or go home.

I would be ok with a 75-100 plug in range but that won’t happen. It seems like a seriously half assed solution
Regular hybrid makes waaaaaay more sense than a plug-in.
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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:45 am I don’t like the fact that a plug in adds 500-700lbs, $3000-5000 a lot of complexity and very little actual benefit with a shitty 25-50mile Range. At that point you might as well go electric or go home.

I would be ok with a 75-100 plug in range but that won’t happen. It seems like a seriously half assed solution
Where you live, full EV makes more sense. But here, hybrid is the only viable option for mass adoption. There's no easy EV charging unless you can get it at home.

Agreed that 25-50 miles is pretty near worthless. 50-75 would be a pretty ideal mix between weight, cost, and performance IMO.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:53 am
max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:45 am I don’t like the fact that a plug in adds 500-700lbs, $3000-5000 a lot of complexity and very little actual benefit with a shitty 25-50mile Range. At that point you might as well go electric or go home.

I would be ok with a 75-100 plug in range but that won’t happen. It seems like a seriously half assed solution
Where you live, full EV makes more sense. But here, hybrid is the only viable option for mass adoption. There's no easy EV charging unless you can get it at home.

Agreed that 25-50 miles is pretty near worthless. 50-75 would be a pretty ideal mix between weight, cost, and performance IMO.
See that would do wonders for me in a JL if it doesn’t compromise performance, but I don’t see how it wouldn’t. That’s a lot of shit to stuff under that frame. 50-75 miles is how much I and 90 % of the country drive daily. 25-50 is a crapshoot, yes I have read the studies that say otherwise but I think they were sponsored by GM to sell the volt. You’d basically have to charge daily which is sort of a hassle.
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Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:41 am
Apex wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:14 am

I'd look at a Subaru before a CRV or RAV4, personally. :iono:

A co-worker of mine traded her ~3 year old RAV4 in for a new one a couple of weeks ago. She doesn't like it nearly as much as her older one, but she was :doomed: on lease miles so made a :dill:
What's her beef with the new one? I didn't hate the old one. It drove competently, and had a very "lets go do whatever" attitude.
Mostly ride, the older one rode better. These are both lower trim models, no adventure suspension or anything like that. Basic mom-mobile spec.
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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:45 am I don’t like the fact that a plug in adds 500-700lbs, $3000-5000 a lot of complexity and very little actual benefit with a shitty 25-50mile Range. At that point you might as well go electric or go home.

I would be ok with a 75-100 plug in range but that won’t happen. It seems like a seriously half assed solution
The added torque of a hybrid electric powertrain makes a big difference in the way it drives. If the upcharge is a lot then yeah you have to really question your decision. On the Rav the upcharge for the hybrid is only like $800. And it accelerates to 60 a full second faster. :iono: Being able to get 40 MPG in the city is pretty nice.
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CorvetteWaxer wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:49 am
Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:55 am

I like the Forester.
Cool.

I didn't know you transitioned over to become a middle aged lesbian.

Good for you Man.... err... Dude... err.. Ma'am.
Seems to do what most people require out of a car :iono:
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Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:57 am
max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:45 am I don’t like the fact that a plug in adds 500-700lbs, $3000-5000 a lot of complexity and very little actual benefit with a shitty 25-50mile Range. At that point you might as well go electric or go home.

I would be ok with a 75-100 plug in range but that won’t happen. It seems like a seriously half assed solution
The added torque of a hybrid electric powertrain makes a big difference in the way it drives. If the upcharge is a lot then yeah you have to really question your decision. On the Rav the upcharge for the hybrid is only like $800. And it accelerates to 60 a full second faster. :iono: Being able to get 40 MPG in the city is pretty nice.
We’re not talking rav 4 :doe: . Toyota perfected the hybrids
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Detroit wrote:
Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:55 am I like the Forester. Last gen is identical to my car inside which is fine but I'd want a change. New one is nice inside, decent I guess outside. Shame it doesn't have any balls. Over $30k for a new one though.... why not go used Benzo GLC for that much.
Man, I dunno. I've got a friend with one...and it just seems to meh to me. It's nice enough, but I have no idea why anyone would buy one over a RAV4 or something.
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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:53 am
Where you live, full EV makes more sense. But here, hybrid is the only viable option for mass adoption. There's no easy EV charging unless you can get it at home.

Agreed that 25-50 miles is pretty near worthless. 50-75 would be a pretty ideal mix between weight, cost, and performance IMO.
See that would do wonders for me in a JL if it doesn’t compromise performance, but I don’t see how it wouldn’t. That’s a lot of shit to stuff under that frame. 50-75 miles is how much I and 90 % of the country drive daily. 25-50 is a crapshoot, yes I have read the studies that say otherwise but I think they were sponsored by GM to sell the volt. You’d basically have to charge daily which is sort of a hassle.
Charging daily isn't a hassle if you have charging at home. Park vehicle and plug in. Extra 30 seconds tops.

But from my experience, 50 miles should be the minimum range to be worth it. 20? Don't bother. My commute is 20 miles and I don't have charging at work. So I get one way with no side trips or anything. That's not realistic. 50-75 miles would get most people through the day on all electric without the need to plug in until they got home. That's ideal.

I think there's a solid performance OPPORTUNITY. That electric motor is really torquey, and if sized appropriately could actually be pretty great. A lot of people like the 2.0T hybrid Wrangler for this reason. Sure there's a weight and complexity penalty, and that all needs to be weighed.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:00 am
Detroit wrote: Man, I dunno. I've got a friend with one...and it just seems to meh to me. It's nice enough, but I have no idea why anyone would buy one over a RAV4 or something.
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We make fun of my friend relentlessly for buying that thing. Even his wife gets on board with the punishment.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:00 am
max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 am

See that would do wonders for me in a JL if it doesn’t compromise performance, but I don’t see how it wouldn’t. That’s a lot of shit to stuff under that frame. 50-75 miles is how much I and 90 % of the country drive daily. 25-50 is a crapshoot, yes I have read the studies that say otherwise but I think they were sponsored by GM to sell the volt. You’d basically have to charge daily which is sort of a hassle.
Charging daily isn't a hassle if you have charging at home. Park vehicle and plug in. Extra 30 seconds tops.

But from my experience, 50 miles should be the minimum range to be worth it. 20? Don't bother. My commute is 20 miles and I don't have charging at work. So I get one way with no side trips or anything. That's not realistic. 50-75 miles would get most people through the day on all electric without the need to plug in until they got home. That's ideal.

I think there's a solid performance OPPORTUNITY. That electric motor is really torquey, and if sized appropriately could actually be pretty great. A lot of people like the 2.0T hybrid Wrangler for this reason. Sure there's a weight and complexity penalty, and that all needs to be weighed.
Do they ? I thought they had 2.0 specific rebates on that thing... it also initially recommended premium where FCA later on clarified that it “can” run on regular but for optimum performance run the shit that 1/2 the country pays 60-90 cents extra for.

Also the acceleration and fe figures are in line or below the 3.6. There is no way I’d pick that engine in the wrangler it makes no sense. Pretty sure it was some Obama era cafe shit that resulted in that :fullretard: engine option
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Detroit wrote:
max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 am See that would do wonders for me in a JL if it doesn’t compromise performance, but I don’t see how it wouldn’t. That’s a lot of shit to stuff under that frame. 50-75 miles is how much I and 90 % of the country drive daily. 25-50 is a crapshoot, yes I have read the studies that say otherwise but I think they were sponsored by GM to sell the volt. You’d basically have to charge daily which is sort of a hassle.
Charging daily isn't a hassle if you have charging at home. Park vehicle and plug in. Extra 30 seconds tops.

But from my experience, 50 miles should be the minimum range to be worth it. 20? Don't bother. My commute is 20 miles and I don't have charging at work. So I get one way with no side trips or anything. That's not realistic. 50-75 miles would get most people through the day on all electric without the need to plug in until they got home. That's ideal.

I think there's a solid performance OPPORTUNITY. That electric motor is really torquey, and if sized appropriately could actually be pretty great. A lot of people like the 2.0T hybrid Wrangler for this reason. Sure there's a weight and complexity penalty, and that all needs to be weighed.
There's no reason to bother with the big battery and plug-in stuff. See Toyota hybrids. At 40 mpg on 87 with a 12-15 gal tank nobody needs to screw with plugging in a car. Take 3 minutes to refill the tank once a week, park the car anywhere, :aintcare:
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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:00 am
Detroit wrote: Man, I dunno. I've got a friend with one...and it just seems to meh to me. It's nice enough, but I have no idea why anyone would buy one over a RAV4 or something.
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Hey, you got a Johnny_P sighting. Did you stop and have a chat?
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Johnny_P wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:51 pm
MexicanYarisTK wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:08 pm

Car navigations were only good before you’re able to do that with a smartphone, therefore not willing to get navigation on my cars at all cost, for what? Waste money for more inconvenience and unnecessary weight, more things to go wrong. My dads explorers navigation is a bitch to deal with, it constantly needs sd card update where it doesnt even show a map. Carplay is deff one of the best things that has happened imo

My 2004 TSX’s navigation was actually useful and easy to use, tons of information
That's the other thing. A highway interchange near us is being rebuilt, so some of the exit routing has changed. We were in it, and the car legit had no fucking clue what to do because maps are outdated. More reason to just skip in dash navi.
oh yesss I wholeheartedly agree. With my Acura, you had to get a DVD disk for it, which the player is in the trunk. Im pretty sure its the same with ford as well.
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Are you guys serious ? The woman’s 2010 nav is an absolute joke. Sim city 2000 graphics, terrible interface etc

However the nav in my 3 series I use more than my phone
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Apex wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:57 am
Johnny_P wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:41 am

What's her beef with the new one? I didn't hate the old one. It drove competently, and had a very "lets go do whatever" attitude.
Mostly ride, the older one rode better. These are both lower trim models, no adventure suspension or anything like that. Basic mom-mobile spec.
Oh wow that's interesting.
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max225 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:03 am
Detroit wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:00 am
Charging daily isn't a hassle if you have charging at home. Park vehicle and plug in. Extra 30 seconds tops.

But from my experience, 50 miles should be the minimum range to be worth it. 20? Don't bother. My commute is 20 miles and I don't have charging at work. So I get one way with no side trips or anything. That's not realistic. 50-75 miles would get most people through the day on all electric without the need to plug in until they got home. That's ideal.

I think there's a solid performance OPPORTUNITY. That electric motor is really torquey, and if sized appropriately could actually be pretty great. A lot of people like the 2.0T hybrid Wrangler for this reason. Sure there's a weight and complexity penalty, and that all needs to be weighed.
Do they ? I thought they had 2.0 specific rebates on that thing... it also initially recommended premium where FCA later on clarified that it “can” run on regular but for optimum performance run the shit that 1/2 the country pays 60-90 cents extra for.

Also the acceleration and fe figures are in line or below the 3.6. There is no way I’d pick that engine in the wrangler it makes no sense. Pretty sure it was some Obama era cafe shit that resulted in that :fullretard: engine option
The JL forum people seem to like the 2.0 who bought them. It's totally for compliance, but there is more torque down low, which is welcome from the 3.6.

If BUYING something, I'd buy the 3.6. It's tried and true, simple, and reliable. But, I can see why people would consider the hybrid.
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