Car Talk 4: The Richard Hertz Rent-A-Car 500

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CorvetteWaxer wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:28 am
D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:54 am

The acceleration is definitely exhilarating, but the steering feel, brake feel, all of that just suck. It's a great car for non car people. The whole vibe is that it's a throwaway thing like an iPhone... which many people like but is ultimately pretty :wasteful: . Saying that one here has opened my eyes to a nice bar debate I hope to instigate about my 17 year old :poorvette: being more environmentally sound.
I've been saying mostly this since we got our first Model S back in 2012. We had more than 20 Tesla's as test vehicles in ~4 years. Once the new wears off the "this is FAST from a stop" and "wow it's so quiet and strange" the cars are boring as fuck.

On top of that, my wife freaks out that the Toaster Oven/Air Fryer we bought warns to not leave it plugged in when not in use because fire risk (yet it has a clock display??!?). At least a handful of Tesla's are known to burn houses down. Pretty sure she'd demand it not be in the garage and parked with an extension cord on the street. :lol:
Exactly, but don't bring it up in here or you'll be essentially called an idiot.
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:34 am
D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:54 am

The acceleration is definitely exhilarating, but the steering feel, brake feel, all of that just suck. It's a great car for non car people. The whole vibe is that it's a throwaway thing like an iPhone... which many people like but is ultimately pretty :wasteful: . Saying that one here has opened my eyes to a nice bar debate I hope to instigate about my 17 year old :poorvette: being more environmentally sound.
Lol, I'm always down for a friendly bar debate. Are we actually saving the earth by going electric car? The real fix is to drive less, society should promote more WFH incentives, and find efficiencies that people actually benefit from.

Crushing the :poorvette: to plug a new :appliance: into their home which runs on electricity only defers the pollution from your neighborhood to someone else's, and creates new land fills.

We either reduce the usage of transportation/single use items/non-essential lifestyle crap altogether or we have less people on the planet.

I'd love to see a program that eliminates garbage by forcing food/toy suppliers to reuse the same packaging over and over again, say choosing from a generic cross section of container sizes that always come back to the grocery store in an exchange program.

Example: A truck drops off a skid of berries, and picks up a skid of highly stackable empty containers that people have used and brought back to the grocery store in a clutch group of sizes easily adopted by most food suppliers. You lose one, and you need to pay extra for the new one that comes with the fresh package of berries. You bring back your container and are credited for it and redeem your credits at the drop off station when you walk in.

So why isn't anyone doing that? Because nobody is getting rich from the transition, electric car movement is a massive money maker, but it will do just as much harm as it does good.
:dat: I agree.

I've been pretty environmentally focused (outside of track days :yikes: ) recently and the biggest/best thing you can do is just use less. Don't take pointless car trips. If you can walk somewhere instead of drive, do it. WFH when you can. Don't buy pointless shit you don't need, really think about every purchase. Use reusable bottles/coffee mugs, it's gross how many people at my office use 5+ Styrofoam cups per day, I think they should stop stocking them. Don't eat take out every night, don't get bags at the grocery store, etc.

The idea about reusable containers is fantastic.
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Drove my buddies 3 and had it sideways in a roundabout :iono: :wrong: :howdareu:
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4zilch wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:51 am Drove my buddies 3 and had it sideways in a roundabout :iono: :wrong: :howdareu:
:wrong: that was just the body shifting because bad quality
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:50 am
Tarspin wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:34 am

Lol, I'm always down for a friendly bar debate. Are we actually saving the earth by going electric car? The real fix is to drive less, society should promote more WFH incentives, and find efficiencies that people actually benefit from.

Crushing the :poorvette: to plug a new :appliance: into their home which runs on electricity only defers the pollution from your neighborhood to someone else's, and creates new land fills.

We either reduce the usage of transportation/single use items/non-essential lifestyle crap altogether or we have less people on the planet.

I'd love to see a program that eliminates garbage by forcing food/toy suppliers to reuse the same packaging over and over again, say choosing from a generic cross section of container sizes that always come back to the grocery store in an exchange program.

Example: A truck drops off a skid of berries, and picks up a skid of highly stackable empty containers that people have used and brought back to the grocery store in a clutch group of sizes easily adopted by most food suppliers. You lose one, and you need to pay extra for the new one that comes with the fresh package of berries. You bring back your container and are credited for it and redeem your credits at the drop off station when you walk in.

So why isn't anyone doing that? Because nobody is getting rich from the transition, electric car movement is a massive money maker, but it will do just as much harm as it does good.
:dat: I agree.

I've been pretty environmentally focused (outside of track days :yikes: ) recently and the biggest/best thing you can do is just use less. Don't take pointless car trips. If you can walk somewhere instead of drive, do it. WFH when you can. Don't buy pointless shit you don't need, really think about every purchase. Use reusable bottles/coffee mugs, it's gross how many people at my office use 5+ Styrofoam cups per day, I think they should stop stocking them. Don't eat take out every night, don't get bags at the grocery store, etc.

The idea about reusable containers is fantastic.
I've had the same five or six bags in my car for months and always bring them to the grocery store to carry my purchases. Once they are unloaded the bags go back into my passenger door card. I had a more permanent set of bags but sometimes they get used for other things and now I'm short, either way those six bags are staying out of the landfill for now.

I'm disgusted by the poor efforts of manufactures and distributors of goods to make no effort to reuse containers. I think an international standard of containers would cut garbage in half right off the bat... if not more, at least from a consumer standpoint. I'd love for that idea to grow traction, I don't know what I could do to get the word out but am trying to tell anyone about it when people are debating environmental subject matter. Hopefully it makes it's way up the chain of command some day.

It would be cool to see localized work hubs in any area that allow anyone to rent space to do office work for companies located great distances away, so instead of going to the office across town people could go to their local office and charge the space back to their employer, swipe in and out times logged, printer and scanner services avail, strong network available for internet shit. :iono: it's another idea I had recently.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:00 am
4zilch wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:51 am Drove my buddies 3 and had it sideways in a roundabout :iono: :wrong: :howdareu:
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:dat: :disappoint:
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4zilch wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:51 am Drove my buddies 3 and had it sideways in a roundabout :iono: :wrong: :howdareu:
I drove a P90D AWD model... absolutely zero drama to the thing.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:17 am
4zilch wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:51 am Drove my buddies 3 and had it sideways in a roundabout :iono: :wrong: :howdareu:
I drove a P90D AWD model... absolutely zero drama to the thing.
My drama was driver induced :iono:

I didn't find it to be bad car. Obviously its a bit sterile in absence of engine noises and the minimalist interior, but other than that it wasn't a bad ride IMO. Clearly it's not going to be a FiST or a :poorvette: in terms of giggles.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:59 am And here we go.

Between the Philly and Central NJ districts, the brand is about 35% under where we were MTD on this day last year. Panicked texts from the new district manager looking for a pulse.

It's here.
Thanksgiving was really late this year people didn't have time to buy cars
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:caspian:
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:10 am
D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:50 am

:dat: I agree.

I've been pretty environmentally focused (outside of track days :yikes: ) recently and the biggest/best thing you can do is just use less. Don't take pointless car trips. If you can walk somewhere instead of drive, do it. WFH when you can. Don't buy pointless shit you don't need, really think about every purchase. Use reusable bottles/coffee mugs, it's gross how many people at my office use 5+ Styrofoam cups per day, I think they should stop stocking them. Don't eat take out every night, don't get bags at the grocery store, etc.

The idea about reusable containers is fantastic.
I've had the same five or six bags in my car for months and always bring them to the grocery store to carry my purchases. Once they are unloaded the bags go back into my passenger door card. I had a more permanent set of bags but sometimes they get used for other things and now I'm short, either way those six bags are staying out of the landfill for now.

I'm disgusted by the poor efforts of manufactures and distributors of goods to make no effort to reuse containers. I think an international standard of containers would cut garbage in half right off the bat... if not more, at least from a consumer standpoint. I'd love for that idea to grow traction, I don't know what I could do to get the word out but am trying to tell anyone about it when people are debating environmental subject matter. Hopefully it makes it's way up the chain of command some day.

It would be cool to see localized work hubs in any area that allow anyone to rent space to do office work for companies located great distances away, so instead of going to the office across town people could go to their local office and charge the space back to their employer, swipe in and out times logged, printer and scanner services avail, strong network available for internet shit. :iono: it's another idea I had recently.
I think plastic landfill adder grocery bags need to be banned.
I hate getting cheap shit dollar store gifts that will be thrown out in 15 mins.
I reuse bags.
I inconveniently walk 2 blocks to the grocery store.
Try to minimize coffee cups.
Live close to where I work.

The amount of waste we generate as a society is shocking. I’ve actually started thinking I shouldn’t buy any new cars because of all the waste associated with manufacturing and transporting them. Re use someone else’s :plac: vehicle.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:59 am And here we go.

Between the Philly and Central NJ districts, the brand is about 35% under where we were MTD on this day last year. Panicked texts from the new district manager looking for a pulse.

It's here.
Everyone around me is buying Hyundai’s and Kias because cheap. Have only seen maybe one new Mazda 3.

People held off buying cars in the recession. Then they ought cars after it. Maybe just fewer people need new cars now.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:59 am And here we go.

Between the Philly and Central NJ districts, the brand is about 35% under where we were MTD on this day last year. Panicked texts from the new district manager looking for a pulse.

It's here.
So if you’re down 5-10 % between the two months isn’t that the trend ? Seems like you guys pulled sales way forward in November. But yea no sales vp wants to hear that. Being up 30% yoy is really tough unless you have a killer product/brand etc
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:59 am And here we go.

Between the Philly and Central NJ districts, the brand is about 35% under where we were MTD on this day last year. Panicked texts from the new district manager looking for a pulse.

It's here.
In Canada Mazda 3 and 6 are having a hard time catching traction. It might just be because people are transitioning to :truk: purchases, but I think they are better then they ever were and was taken aback by the report.

I really thought car sales for those few left standing would be surging.
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Johnny_P wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:10 pm
[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:59 am And here we go.

Between the Philly and Central NJ districts, the brand is about 35% under where we were MTD on this day last year. Panicked texts from the new district manager looking for a pulse.

It's here.
Everyone around me is buying Hyundai’s and Kias because cheap. Have only seen maybe one new Mazda 3.

People held off buying cars in the recession. Then they ought cars after it. Maybe just fewer people need new cars now.
I don’t think that’s the case. 17 million new cars a year being sold is still insane. Considering the populous is becoming more urban again.
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[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:17 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:15 pm

I don’t think that’s the case. 17 million new cars a year being sold is still insane. Considering the populous is becoming more urban again.
How many of those 17m cars are fleet sales?
US biggest Automaker
GM’s fleet mix of total sales was 19.5 percent, down 3 tenths of a percent, year over year
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max225 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:22 pm
[user not found] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:17 pm

How many of those 17m cars are fleet sales?
US biggest Automaker
GM’s fleet mix of total sales was 19.5 percent, down 3 tenths of a percent, year over year
Plus, we're coming off a peak. It's impossible for growth to be infinite. 17M is great...hell, 16M is still strong.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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10-14 million is a sustainable level, that's how many vehicles leave the market annually. Right now we're just adding new shit.
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max225 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:50 pm 10-14 million is a sustainable level, that's how many vehicles leave the market annually. Right now we're just adding new shit.
Yep...which is why expecting 17M to continue in perpetuity is :fullretard:

I just hope overproduction and incentives don't force volume...will just make the fall that much harder.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Johnny_P wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:07 pm
Tarspin wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:10 am

I've had the same five or six bags in my car for months and always bring them to the grocery store to carry my purchases. Once they are unloaded the bags go back into my passenger door card. I had a more permanent set of bags but sometimes they get used for other things and now I'm short, either way those six bags are staying out of the landfill for now.

I'm disgusted by the poor efforts of manufactures and distributors of goods to make no effort to reuse containers. I think an international standard of containers would cut garbage in half right off the bat... if not more, at least from a consumer standpoint. I'd love for that idea to grow traction, I don't know what I could do to get the word out but am trying to tell anyone about it when people are debating environmental subject matter. Hopefully it makes it's way up the chain of command some day.

It would be cool to see localized work hubs in any area that allow anyone to rent space to do office work for companies located great distances away, so instead of going to the office across town people could go to their local office and charge the space back to their employer, swipe in and out times logged, printer and scanner services avail, strong network available for internet shit. :iono: it's another idea I had recently.
I think plastic landfill adder grocery bags need to be banned.
I hate getting cheap shit dollar store gifts that will be thrown out in 15 mins.
I reuse bags.
I inconveniently walk 2 blocks to the grocery store.
Try to minimize coffee cups.
Live close to where I work.

The amount of waste we generate as a society is shocking. I’ve actually started thinking I shouldn’t buy any new cars because of all the waste associated with manufacturing and transporting them. Re use someone else’s :plac: vehicle.
One area California is doing good.... banning single use bags and making people pay for a more sturdy plastic bag if they don't have their own. It has become routine to bring our own canvas bags into the store, so much so that we just did it in Nevada and Arizona w/o thinking about it and got funny looks from the cashier and bagger.
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Tarspin wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:29 am
max225 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:25 am

You’re going to come on here and tell me that you hold some sort of holy grail of a smoking gun to expose that Tesla’s burn at night when charging ?

Enlighten us please
Some catch fire while charging in people's garage, nothing more and nothing less. It's a known issue. I wouldn't be ready to buy one yet and not because they can catch fire like they sometimes do, but because I don't think transfering the pollution problem from the tail pipe to the manufacturing process (rare earth mining) and the electricity producers doesn't actually make the earth cleaner.

Secondly, long range or not, I feel that a P-car is a much nicer EV to own then a Model S. It is well put together and they don't throw every control on a screen to save money. If the driver is better suited with real gauges and buttons then Porsche adds that, and body panels actually fit up.

You know it doesn't matter what I say cause you're generally a demeaning dick to me more often then not, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one you act that way to so I digress, I'm not here to teach you life lessons.
Since you're singling me out for some unknown reason :disgust: You're also layering random shit into your posts that I have never talked about.

Where did I state that Elon is saving the world?

Where did I state anything about pollution ?

Where did I state that the Tesla drives better?

Don't spew bullshit unless you can back it up maple syrup boy.

To bring us back to what my points were:
1. Yes Porsche fucked up by having a 201 mile range that's indisputable. A 50k model 3 goes 300 miles, a 200k P car should go 400/500. Lets argue about that. I think its not acceptable what is your take?

2. Also to get back to this whole "teslas catch of fire". Are you that naive that you're willing to ignore the millions of gasoline cars catching on fire for multitude of reasons? Shit happens cars are complex.

And unless you have some data to show that Teslas catch on fire more than an average car I am willing to argue this as well. So far no evidence was presented for this, on the contrary, Teslas have some of the lowest fatality rates per mile driven out of any vehicle. That is an indisputable fact.

They have the highest ranges in the electric car world fact
They are selling more than anyone else fact

What are your gripes with facts?
Last edited by max225 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:51 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:50 pm 10-14 million is a sustainable level, that's how many vehicles leave the market annually. Right now we're just adding new shit.
Yep...which is why expecting 17M to continue in perpetuity is :fullretard:

I just hope overproduction and incentives don't force volume...will just make the fall that much harder.
The used cars values are also insanely high at the moment, which is driving all this demand. It used to be that you can pick up a 3 year old car for 25-30% of MSRP. Now that number is at least 50%, making it far less enticing.
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I want to know the root cause of these few Tesla fires.

When I had the electrician run a line for EV charging in my new garage, he followed Tesla's requirements for their chargers. Dedicated 60 amp circuit, some sort of fancy copper wire, etc. He said they specify some heavy dude electrical things that's "overkill" for any other application. He went on to say that they follow Tesla's requirements because they're the most robust and they don't want to be on the hook for something catching fire. A charger that wasn't installed right could easily be the cause of these fires...not the car itself.

But that's an EV issue that applies to more than just Tesla.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:58 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:51 pm
Yep...which is why expecting 17M to continue in perpetuity is :fullretard:

I just hope overproduction and incentives don't force volume...will just make the fall that much harder.
The used cars values are also insanely high at the moment, which is driving all this demand. It used to be that you can pick up a 3 year old car for 25-30% of MSRP. Now that number is at least 50%, making it far less enticing.
I don't understand the used vehicle market one bit. There has GOT to be something driving the weirdness.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I think the problem with the auto industry is that none of the new cars are really exciting/compelling.

I'm talking normal cars, the volume movers, not high end low volume.

The move to mostly CUVs is a kiss of death IMO. They are all so fucking boring that it doesn't matter if you have the newest one, or one that is 7 years old. Its an appliance and if it still runs 90% of people will have no desire to upgrade it. The people that bought into them have given up all hope of having something "neat" or "nice" and are just waiting to die.

If they still had more cars that were somewhat sporty that are not $40k Those are the cars that make people want to update/upgrade, a CUV/minivan just needs to run until it dies a slow horrible death to most people. My sister and brother-in-law STILL have a POS 2002 Dodge Caravan because it runs with not too expensive repairs every year. By most people's standards if it was a small hatch or coupe it would have been replaced twice already. They literally give zero shits about replacing it though, because it still runs. Since then they have bought 4 other cars but even told me there's no good options anymore as they were thinking about another Focus soon.
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