You have no idea what you're talking about. They are awesome on uneven, loose terrain. Yes, they have no use on the trail you took that behemoth chebby on, but they have a lot of use on washed out, uneven trails with potholes where wheels get stuck in pits of dirt/gravel while climbing hills.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:48 pmThey are pointless for "mudding" or whatever else you were trying to do. The only purpose for front/rear lockers is to crawl at sub 5mph while another dude stands outside and tells you where to go, while you then end up flipping your brand new 40k jeep against a tree and just simply "flip it back around" BecauseSixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:42 pm
But you are able to lock them when you need, correct? Maybe I'm confused, but it seems like you're arguing that lockers are pointless off road.
"its a jeep thing"
https://i.imgur.com/jTriOwS.mp4
Jeeponomics 101: Eternal tirekicking for the gutless Jeep
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Or you're off-camber and a wheel is floating in the air.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:56 pmYou have no idea what you're talking about. They are awesome on uneven, loose terrain. Yes, they have no use on the trail you took that behemoth chebby on, but they have a lot of use on washed out, uneven trails with potholes where wheels get stuck in pits of dirt/gravel while climbing hills.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:48 pm
They are pointless for "mudding" or whatever else you were trying to do. The only purpose for front/rear lockers is to crawl at sub 5mph while another dude stands outside and tells you where to go, while you then end up flipping your brand new 40k jeep against a tree and just simply "flip it back around" Because
"its a jeep thing"
https://i.imgur.com/jTriOwS.mp4
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They are only "on" if you're in 4 lo and under 15mph. You were talking about "mudding". Where i took the burban has no relevance to the question at hand. Which is the scenario under which a Wrangler would require lockers.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:56 pmYou have no idea what you're talking about. They are awesome on uneven, loose terrain. Yes, they have no use on the trail you took that behemoth chebby on, but they have a lot of use on washed out, uneven trails with potholes where wheels get stuck in pits of dirt/gravel while climbing hills.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:48 pm
They are pointless for "mudding" or whatever else you were trying to do. The only purpose for front/rear lockers is to crawl at sub 5mph while another dude stands outside and tells you where to go, while you then end up flipping your brand new 40k jeep against a tree and just simply "flip it back around" Because
"its a jeep thing"
https://i.imgur.com/jTriOwS.mp4
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I never said mudding, I said that there might be mud on the trails, especially in the potholes and divots that develop on unmaintained forrest trails in mountainous areas. If you don't know why a locker would be useful under those conditions, I don't know what to tell you.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:00 pmThey are only "on" if you're in 4 lo and under 15mph. You were talking about "mudding". Where i took the burban has no relevance to the question at hand. Which is the scenario under which a Wrangler would require lockers.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:56 pm
You have no idea what you're talking about. They are awesome on uneven, loose terrain. Yes, they have no use on the trail you took that behemoth chebby on, but they have a lot of use on washed out, uneven trails with potholes where wheels get stuck in pits of dirt/gravel while climbing hills.
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Apex wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:57 pmOr you're off-camber and a wheel is floating in the air.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:56 pm
You have no idea what you're talking about. They are awesome on uneven, loose terrain. Yes, they have no use on the trail you took that behemoth chebby on, but they have a lot of use on washed out, uneven trails with potholes where wheels get stuck in pits of dirt/gravel while climbing hills.
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SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:06 pmI never said mudding, I said that there might be mud on the trails, especially in the potholes and divots that develop on unmaintained forrest trails in mountainous areas. If you don't know why a locker would be useful under those conditions, I don't know what to tell you.
I wasn't born yesterday. I am trying to help YOU make a decision, before this thread you didn't even know about the features on the wranglers and how/when they work and which trim has what feature.
I don't know why you're getting all defensive here, literally just trying to help you. I am not trying to E-DICK compete on who crawled through what mudpit.
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I sincerely do thank you for breaking down which trims have which difs, I was definitely confused on that front. I'm not confused about the difference between open, LSD, and locking difs though, and you claiming that lockers are only good for super extreme Jeep brah stuff that will wreck your vehicle is ridiculous to say the least, the whole point of a Wrangler is being able to leave the pavement and a locker is much better than an LSD for the type of trail riding that I do in my experience.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:08 pmSixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:06 pm
I never said mudding, I said that there might be mud on the trails, especially in the potholes and divots that develop on unmaintained forrest trails in mountainous areas. If you don't know why a locker would be useful under those conditions, I don't know what to tell you.
I wasn't born yesterday. I am trying to help YOU make a decision, before this thread you didn't even know about the features on the wranglers and how/when they work and which trim has what feature.
I don't know why you're getting all defensive here, literally just trying to help you. I am not trying to E-DICK compete on who crawled through what mudpit.
I'm not angry Max, just disappointed.
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Hey now we're all here.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:18 pmI sincerely do thank you for breaking down which trims have which difs, I was definitely confused on that front. I'm not confused about the difference between open, LSD, and locking difs though, and you claiming that lockers are only good for super extreme Jeep brah stuff that will wreck your vehicle is ridiculous to say the least, the whole point of a Wrangler is being able to leave the pavement and a locker is much better than an LSD for the type of trail riding that I do in my experience.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:08 pm
I wasn't born yesterday. I am trying to help YOU make a decision, before this thread you didn't even know about the features on the wranglers and how/when they work and which trim has what feature.
I don't know why you're getting all defensive here, literally just trying to help you. I am not trying to E-DICK compete on who crawled through what mudpit.
I'm not angry Max, just disappointed.
Literally for my own curiosity sake, why do you think you need lockers on all 4s on a jeep, that would make it more comfortable than say a wrangler S with a rear lock.
I may be wrong but I can't think of a single scenario that would actually make a Rubicon superior to a Sport + LSD for all types of off roading other than crawling.
Maybe you can educate me, since I am not a Dirteveryday type dude so I don't know.
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maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:24 pmHey now we're all here.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:18 pm
I sincerely do thank you for breaking down which trims have which difs, I was definitely confused on that front. I'm not confused about the difference between open, LSD, and locking difs though, and you claiming that lockers are only good for super extreme Jeep brah stuff that will wreck your vehicle is ridiculous to say the least, the whole point of a Wrangler is being able to leave the pavement and a locker is much better than an LSD for the type of trail riding that I do in my experience.
I'm not angry Max, just disappointed.
Literally for my own curiosity sake, why do you think you need lockers on all 4s on a jeep, that would make it more comfortable than say a wrangler S with a rear lock.
I don't need a locker up front (though it would be nice), one in the rear would be sufficient.
The scenarios I've been explaining in this thread (from personal experiences) are exactly when a LSD wouldn't help you and a locker would, loose gravel/pothole while climbing up a gravel/dirt trail with ruts. One wheel is on the ground and one is floating in loose gravel, where does the LSD send the power? A locker will spin both wheels regardless of one being in the air or without traction.I may be wrong but I can't think of a single scenario that would actually make a Rubicon superior to a Sport + LSD for all types of off roading other than crawling.
Maybe you can educate me, since I am not a Dirteveryday type dude so I don't know.
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Presumably at that point the 4WD would send at least 50% of the power up front or rear.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:38 pm
I don't need a locker up front (though it would be nice), one in the rear would be sufficient.
The scenarios I've been explaining in this thread (from personal experiences) are exactly when a LSD wouldn't help you and a locker would, loose gravel/pothole while climbing up a gravel/dirt trail with ruts. One wheel is on the ground and one is floating in loose gravel, where does the LSD send the power? A locker will spin both wheels regardless of one being in the air or without traction.I may be wrong but I can't think of a single scenario that would actually make a Rubicon superior to a Sport + LSD for all types of off roading other than crawling.
Maybe you can educate me, since I am not a Dirteveryday type dude so I don't know.
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So rely on the front axle to pull you up and over? Maybe, but sometimes that wouldn't be enough. The rear axle with an LSD will send the power to the wheel without traction, and the rear wheel on the ground with traction does nothing.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:42 pmPresumably at that point the 4WD would send at least 50% of the power up front or rear.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:38 pm
I don't need a locker up front (though it would be nice), one in the rear would be sufficient.
The scenarios I've been explaining in this thread (from personal experiences) are exactly when a LSD wouldn't help you and a locker would, loose gravel/pothole while climbing up a gravel/dirt trail with ruts. One wheel is on the ground and one is floating in loose gravel, where does the LSD send the power? A locker will spin both wheels regardless of one being in the air or without traction.
As I said earlier in this thread, a locker isn't necessary if you have a skilled driver but a locker will take you places with ease that it would take a lot more skill and effort to get to without one. Do I consider it a deal breaker? No, but I still want one if possible, they are awesome off road.
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Well i think we're talking about two different things.
Axle lock and LSD.
My whole argument was based around having a rear LSD as being an actual advantage vs having axle lock ala rubicon.
A rubicon doesn't have LSD. It has Tru-Lok which can only be engaged under super limiting i,e rock crawling conditions.
Axle lock and LSD.
My whole argument was based around having a rear LSD as being an actual advantage vs having axle lock ala rubicon.
A rubicon doesn't have LSD. It has Tru-Lok which can only be engaged under super limiting i,e rock crawling conditions.
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A locker is very useful off the pavement and I've given multiple reasons and examples as to why that is. A LSD has issues when one wheel doesn't have traction. A LSD is good for light offroading, but has major issues when lifting wheels off the ground. I'm not talking about doing anything crazy here, just normal poorly maintained gravel and dirt trails on hills, places that my GF's Renegade goes (with maximum effort). A LSD is no substitute for a locker. Flooring it up a hill is how guys get in trouble, slow and steady with knowledge of where all four tires are and are going to be is the way to properly and safely offroad. A locker will get you through the tough stuff easily, a LSD will require a running start and prayer.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:56 pm Well i think we're talking about two different things.
Axle lock and LSD.
My whole argument was based around having a rear LSD as being an actual advantage vs having axle lock ala rubicon.
A rubicon doesn't have LSD. It has Tru-Lok which can only be engaged under super limiting i,e rock crawling conditions.
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And yet your current 4x4 has open diffs all aroundSixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:52 pmAnd I disagree hardily, I've spent a good amount of time off the pavement in vehicles with LSDs, lockers, e-difs, and plain old open difs, and I've found a lot of merit in a dif that has the ability to lock the wheels together.
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Depends on the LSD type. If it's like the STI's Torsen it will wedge the clutches if one wheel gets no traction essentially locking it.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 pmA locker is very useful off the pavement and I've given multiple reasons and examples as to why that is. A LSD has issues when one wheel doesn't have traction. A LSD is good for light offroading, but has major issues when lifting wheels off the ground. I'm not talking about doing anything crazy here, just normal poorly maintained gravel and dirt trails on hills, places that my GF's Renegade goes (with maximum effort). A LSD is no substitute for a locker. Flooring it up a hill is how guys get in trouble, slow and steady with knowledge of where all four tires are and are going to be is the way to properly and safely offroad. A locker will get you through the tough stuff easily, a LSD will require a running start and prayer.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:56 pm Well i think we're talking about two different things.
Axle lock and LSD.
My whole argument was based around having a rear LSD as being an actual advantage vs having axle lock ala rubicon.
A rubicon doesn't have LSD. It has Tru-Lok which can only be engaged under super limiting i,e rock crawling conditions.
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Johnny_P wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:51 pmAnd yet your current 4x4 has open diffs all aroundSixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:52 pm
And I disagree hardily, I've spent a good amount of time off the pavement in vehicles with LSDs, lockers, e-difs, and plain old open difs, and I've found a lot of merit in a dif that has the ability to lock the wheels together.
One could argue that an open dif is better/safer for 95% of the consumers as an LSD out back would induce oversteer which doesn't happen with the open dif.
Last edited by SixSpeeder on Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A couple of more points...SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 pmA locker is very useful off the pavement and I've given multiple reasons and examples as to why that is. A LSD has issues when one wheel doesn't have traction. A LSD is good for light offroading, but has major issues when lifting wheels off the ground. I'm not talking about doing anything crazy here, just normal poorly maintained gravel and dirt trails on hills, places that my GF's Renegade goes (with maximum effort). A LSD is no substitute for a locker. Flooring it up a hill is how guys get in trouble, slow and steady with knowledge of where all four tires are and are going to be is the way to properly and safely offroad. A locker will get you through the tough stuff easily, a LSD will require a running start and prayer.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:56 pm Well i think we're talking about two different things.
Axle lock and LSD.
My whole argument was based around having a rear LSD as being an actual advantage vs having axle lock ala rubicon.
A rubicon doesn't have LSD. It has Tru-Lok which can only be engaged under super limiting i,e rock crawling conditions.
1. I don't think you'll be lifting wheels off the ground. That's quite rare and if you are... the center diff presumably will send power to the opposite axle. Which is why I was talking about 4WD.
2. A locker is not really something you can drive with and make turns etc. It is a rock crawl only feature for the most part.
Just look at the Rubicon wrangler, it has open diffs for 99% of the terrain and it just just fine. You only lock it for rock crawling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vKt22zDTM0
Open diffs seem to do just fine...
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The issue is also when there is no traction on one rear wheel and compromised traction of the front axel. Agreed, a locker is only beneficial at low speeds/low traction situations.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:21 pmA couple of more points...SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 pm
A locker is very useful off the pavement and I've given multiple reasons and examples as to why that is. A LSD has issues when one wheel doesn't have traction. A LSD is good for light offroading, but has major issues when lifting wheels off the ground. I'm not talking about doing anything crazy here, just normal poorly maintained gravel and dirt trails on hills, places that my GF's Renegade goes (with maximum effort). A LSD is no substitute for a locker. Flooring it up a hill is how guys get in trouble, slow and steady with knowledge of where all four tires are and are going to be is the way to properly and safely offroad. A locker will get you through the tough stuff easily, a LSD will require a running start and prayer.
1. I don't think you'll be lifting wheels off the ground. That's quite rare and if you are... the center diff presumably will send power to the opposite axle. Which is why I was talking about 4WD.
2. A locker is not really something you can drive with and make turns etc. It is a rock crawl only feature for the most part.
Just look at the Rubicon wrangler, it has open diffs for 99% of the terrain and it just just fine. You only lock it for rock crawling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vKt22zDTM0
Open diffs seem to do just fine...
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Either way back on track...
One thing that sucks about the 2 door vs the 4.
The 2 comes with an epic shitty/tiny 18.6 gallon gas tank... in a vehicle that will average 15ish it'll make you stop quite a fair amount on road trips.
The JKU has a 22.5 gallon tank and the same MPG. So you have about 60 miles of extra range which isn't too shabby.
One thing that sucks about the 2 door vs the 4.
The 2 comes with an epic shitty/tiny 18.6 gallon gas tank... in a vehicle that will average 15ish it'll make you stop quite a fair amount on road trips.
The JKU has a 22.5 gallon tank and the same MPG. So you have about 60 miles of extra range which isn't too shabby.
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Either one is silly to use as a daily driver unless the owner works as a forest ranger or has no commute. I've been playing with the idea of buying a new Wrangler and a used Abarf or Miata.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:31 pm Either way back on track...
One thing that sucks about the 2 door vs the 4.
The 2 comes with an epic shitty/tiny 18.6 gallon gas tank... in a vehicle that will average 15ish it'll make you stop quite a fair amount on road trips.
The JKU has a 22.5 gallon tank and the same MPG. So you have about 60 miles of extra range which isn't too shabby.
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But ironically the Wrangler will likely be the best daily of those 3.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:36 pmEither one is silly to use as a daily driver unless the owner works as a forest ranger or has no commute. I've been playing with the idea of buying a new Wrangler and a used Abarf or Miata.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:31 pm Either way back on track...
One thing that sucks about the 2 door vs the 4.
The 2 comes with an epic shitty/tiny 18.6 gallon gas tank... in a vehicle that will average 15ish it'll make you stop quite a fair amount on road trips.
The JKU has a 22.5 gallon tank and the same MPG. So you have about 60 miles of extra range which isn't too shabby.
I wouldn't mind dail'ynig it.
Easy to drive
Easy to park
0FG since it will just run over everything
No need to worry about dings etc because of the inset body.
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It's boring to drive on the pavement and I drive way too many miles, it would add up. The Abarth is great to parallel park downtown and it gets 30 mpg while raping it, plus it's fun to drive.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:43 pmBut ironically the Wrangler will likely be the best daily of those 3.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:36 pm
Either one is silly to use as a daily driver unless the owner works as a forest ranger or has no commute. I've been playing with the idea of buying a new Wrangler and a used Abarf or Miata.
I wouldn't mind dail'ynig it.
Easy to drive
Easy to park
0FG since it will just run over everything
No need to worry about dings etc because of the inset body.
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Yea I can see hooning an Abarf as a fun activity. Dat noise, tiny, light. etc.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:51 pmIt's boring to drive on the pavement and I drive way too many miles, it would add up. The Abarth is great to parallel park downtown and it gets 30 mpg while raping it, plus it's fun to drive.
But you had Juan already right?
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I sold it right before it ran out of warranty, I don't trust FCA that much. That car was immaculate, I somewhat regret selling it but not really, they're not that tough to find lightly used for chump change. I recently heard about a dealership in TX that was pumping new ones out the door for $16k becuase nobody buys them down there.maxtdi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:01 pmYea I can see hooning an Abarf as a fun activity. Dat noise, tiny, light. etc.SixSpeeder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:51 pm
It's boring to drive on the pavement and I drive way too many miles, it would add up. The Abarth is great to parallel park downtown and it gets 30 mpg while raping it, plus it's fun to drive.
But you had Juan already right?
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http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/5963954513.html
10k out here... But higher miles... they are not super easy to find with low miles under/at 10k
Dam white wheels
10k out here... But higher miles... they are not super easy to find with low miles under/at 10k
Dam white wheels