Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

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D Griff wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:45 am
Huckleberry wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:14 pm

I honestly don't see any reason to buy a Civic over a GTI or GLI.
Have you seen any reviews on recent GLI or GTI? They are all terrible.

I cross shopped the GTI and Civic Si back in 2018, drove them on the same day, and I thought the Civic drove way better and was like 20% less money.
I have, but I stand by my statement: at $25-$30k, I wouldn't be looking at the Civic.

When I bought my 2019 GTI, I didn't even consider the Civic because of how awful it looked. Also, I've done the sub-200 HP daily before, and it was awful.
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Huckleberry wrote:
D Griff wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:45 am

Have you seen any reviews on recent GLI or GTI? They are all terrible.

I cross shopped the GTI and Civic Si back in 2018, drove them on the same day, and I thought the Civic drove way better and was like 20% less money.
I have, but I stand by my statement: at $25-$30k, I wouldn't be looking at the Civic.

When I bought my 2019 GTI, I didn't even consider the Civic because of how awful it looked. Also, I've done the sub-200 HP daily before, and it was awful.
How so?

I agree if it's in a heavy POS, but our 2800 lb mazderp is fine. It would be better with the 2.5 instead of the 2.0, or just shorter gearing, but if you actually use WOT and keep it in the right gears it's generally quicker than anything else on the road.

~200 hp is about what I want, but in a relatively sporty/light/small car. :turboyaris: reigns supreme.
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BIL just got a new-to-him 2020 TLX.. looks sharp, seems like a lot of fun. Used to enjoy driving my buddy’s old TL, imagine this is similar or better. Excited to go visit them at some point and drive it like a :jackass:
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troyguitar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:49 pm
Huckleberry wrote:
I have, but I stand by my statement: at $25-$30k, I wouldn't be looking at the Civic.

When I bought my 2019 GTI, I didn't even consider the Civic because of how awful it looked. Also, I've done the sub-200 HP daily before, and it was awful.
How so?

I agree if it's in a heavy POS, but our 2800 lb mazderp is fine. It would be better with the 2.5 instead of the 2.0, or just shorter gearing, but if you actually use WOT and keep it in the right gears it's generally quicker than anything else on the road.

~200 hp is about what I want, but in a relatively sporty/light/small car. :turboyaris: reigns supreme.
My 2012 Chevy Cruze Eco was a gutless piece of shit. I hated that fucking car.

It got great fuel economy, but it would lose speed on a slight incline while doing 70 in 6th gear.
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Huckleberry wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:13 pm
troyguitar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:49 pm How so?

I agree if it's in a heavy POS, but our 2800 lb mazderp is fine. It would be better with the 2.5 instead of the 2.0, or just shorter gearing, but if you actually use WOT and keep it in the right gears it's generally quicker than anything else on the road.

~200 hp is about what I want, but in a relatively sporty/light/small car. :turboyaris: reigns supreme.
My 2012 Chevy Cruze Eco was a gutless piece of shit. I hated that fucking car.

It got great fuel economy, but it would lose speed on a slight incline while doing 70 in 6th gear.
Your other cars are also a GTO and a LT1 swapped 944. These are not cars that build tolerance for pokey vehicles.
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Huckleberry wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:49 pm How so?

I agree if it's in a heavy POS, but our 2800 lb mazderp is fine. It would be better with the 2.5 instead of the 2.0, or just shorter gearing, but if you actually use WOT and keep it in the right gears it's generally quicker than anything else on the road.

~200 hp is about what I want, but in a relatively sporty/light/small car. :turboyaris: reigns supreme.
My 2012 Chevy Cruze Eco was a gutless piece of shit. I hated that fucking car.

It got great fuel economy, but it would lose speed on a slight incline while doing 70 in 6th gear.
Why not use the other 5 gears?
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troyguitar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:19 pm
Huckleberry wrote: My 2012 Chevy Cruze Eco was a gutless piece of shit. I hated that fucking car.

It got great fuel economy, but it would lose speed on a slight incline while doing 70 in 6th gear.
Why not use the other 5 gears?
Because I shouldn't have to downshift to compensate for a 2% grade when I'm already at speed.
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Johnny_P wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:39 am
Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 am
Image

Oh wow. :impressive: :notbad:
That light interior isn’t offered with many exterior colors. Maybe 2? White and gray I think. Honda sucks about that.

Also. I dunno about Honda.
Oh yea? CR-V experience still rocky?
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Desertbreh wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:16 pm
Huckleberry wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:13 pm
My 2012 Chevy Cruze Eco was a gutless piece of shit. I hated that fucking car.

It got great fuel economy, but it would lose speed on a slight incline while doing 70 in 6th gear.
Your other cars are also a GTO and a LT1 swapped 944. These are not cars that build tolerance for pokey vehicles.
What can I say? V8s spoiled me. :iono:
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Huckleberry wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:19 pm Why not use the other 5 gears?
Because I shouldn't have to downshift to compensate for a 2% grade when I'm already at speed.
I like efficiency and shifting. :iono:

The cruze eco in particular I thought was rather well thought out for the price. Super long 6th gear, but still reasonably short 1-2-3 for acceleration. Factory lightweight 17" :ramz: and a bunch of small functional aero touches, all for ~$20k.
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Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:27 pm
Johnny_P wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:39 am

That light interior isn’t offered with many exterior colors. Maybe 2? White and gray I think. Honda sucks about that.

Also. I dunno about Honda.
Oh yea? CR-V experience still rocky?
Feels like a lot of stuff is covered up / less honest.

Like the car is getting 25 mpg city / 40 highway when it’s rated 40 city / 35 highway. Plenty of forum discussions on gas mileage allude to the CRV hybrid (and other Honda hybrids) not achieving fuel listed fuel economy.

It’s also listed as the most powerful CRV at 212 HP. But that’s also a lie. The electric motor is like 185 HP and most of the time it is all that’s driving the wheels. There is a chance it can have up to 212 if you have a full battery and the gas motor is clutched in at highway speed but that basically never happens.

Then all the weird packaging and horrible tech really make me question how this thing scores so well in comparisons.
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troyguitar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:31 pm
Huckleberry wrote:
Because I shouldn't have to downshift to compensate for a 2% grade when I'm already at speed.
I like efficiency and shifting. :iono:

The cruze eco in particular I thought was rather well thought out for the price. Super long 6th gear, but still reasonably short 1-2-3 for acceleration. Factory lightweight 17" :ramz: and a bunch of small functional aero touches, all for ~$20k.
I like shifting, too, but I don't like needlessly shifting when the car should have enough ass to get up a slight grade.

The Eco sounded great on paper, but for me, it was absolutely miserable to drive. It helped me realize that I'm willing to sacrifice MPGs in the name of performance.
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Johnny_P wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm
Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:27 pm
Oh yea? CR-V experience still rocky?
Feels like a lot of stuff is covered up / less honest.

Like the car is getting 25 mpg city / 40 highway when it’s rated 40 city / 35 highway. Plenty of forum discussions on gas mileage allude to the CRV hybrid (and other Honda hybrids) not achieving fuel listed fuel economy.

It’s also listed as the most powerful CRV at 212 HP. But that’s also a lie. The electric motor is like 185 HP and most of the time it is all that’s driving the wheels. There is a chance it can have up to 212 if you have a full battery and the gas motor is clutched in at highway speed but that basically never happens.

Then all the weird packaging and horrible tech really make me question how this thing scores so well in comparisons.
Some OEMs focus on advertisable metrics over real world. That shit drove me absolutely mad at Stellanus, I could go on and on about ethically questionable things I had to implement to game the system and make cars look better on paper than they are for actual customers. If it sounds too good to be true, it absolutely is. 40mpg city in a hybrid crossover without an EV mode? :yeahok:

It just so happens that somehow some of these OEMs that screw over customers are also media darlings that can do no wrong in comparison tests. I was in that POS field too. Once an OEM is on the media's good side, it takes A LOT to change it. Then they do media goodwill products like the Hype R or Trackhawk, or whatever thing the media always asks for, and the OEM is gold forever, even if the other products kind of blow IRL.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 pm
Johnny_P wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm

Feels like a lot of stuff is covered up / less honest.

Like the car is getting 25 mpg city / 40 highway when it’s rated 40 city / 35 highway. Plenty of forum discussions on gas mileage allude to the CRV hybrid (and other Honda hybrids) not achieving fuel listed fuel economy.

It’s also listed as the most powerful CRV at 212 HP. But that’s also a lie. The electric motor is like 185 HP and most of the time it is all that’s driving the wheels. There is a chance it can have up to 212 if you have a full battery and the gas motor is clutched in at highway speed but that basically never happens.

Then all the weird packaging and horrible tech really make me question how this thing scores so well in comparisons.
Some OEMs focus on advertisable metrics over real world. That shit drove me absolutely mad at Stellanus, I could go on and on about ethically questionable things I had to implement to game the system and make cars look better on paper than they are for actual customers. If it sounds too good to be true, it absolutely is. 40mpg city in a hybrid crossover without an EV mode? :yeahok:

It just so happens that somehow some of these OEMs that screw over customers are also media darlings that can do no wrong in comparison tests. I was in that POS field too. Once an OEM is on the media's good side, it takes A LOT to change it. Then they do media goodwill products like the Hype R or Trackhawk, or whatever thing the media always asks for, and the OEM is gold forever, even if the other products kind of blow IRL.
I mean. The CRV is a great marshmallow. Other CUVs drive better for sure (like prior gen Rav4, current Rav4, etc) but its good at its task and I don't exactly hate it. We had 2 choices for a hybrid CUV and picked the one we were more physically comfortable in. Just the sad part is we should have bought the regular motor since it would be more powerful and get the same fuel mileage.

The Toyota blows this thing away in real world usability, electronics, turning on simple things like the air conditioner, engine power, and fuel economy though. Yet they score neck and neck with many mags putting the Honda on top.

I mean when we got in the Honda my first thought was "lol you have got to be fucking kidding me with this ridic dash and fake ass wood". If it weren't for the Toyota seats being harder than a park bench we'd have bought that and it would have been done.
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Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 pm
Johnny_P wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm

Feels like a lot of stuff is covered up / less honest.

Like the car is getting 25 mpg city / 40 highway when it’s rated 40 city / 35 highway. Plenty of forum discussions on gas mileage allude to the CRV hybrid (and other Honda hybrids) not achieving fuel listed fuel economy.

It’s also listed as the most powerful CRV at 212 HP. But that’s also a lie. The electric motor is like 185 HP and most of the time it is all that’s driving the wheels. There is a chance it can have up to 212 if you have a full battery and the gas motor is clutched in at highway speed but that basically never happens.

Then all the weird packaging and horrible tech really make me question how this thing scores so well in comparisons.
Some OEMs focus on advertisable metrics over real world. That shit drove me absolutely mad at Stellanus, I could go on and on about ethically questionable things I had to implement to game the system and make cars look better on paper than they are for actual customers. If it sounds too good to be true, it absolutely is. 40mpg city in a hybrid crossover without an EV mode? :yeahok:

It just so happens that somehow some of these OEMs that screw over customers are also media darlings that can do no wrong in comparison tests. I was in that POS field too. Once an OEM is on the media's good side, it takes A LOT to change it. Then they do media goodwill products like the Hype R or Trackhawk, or whatever thing the media always asks for, and the OEM is gold forever, even if the other products kind of blow IRL.
That's corporate America. Everything has to be a metric and everyone wants to manipulate the metric until it supports their agenda.
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Huckleberry wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:08 am
Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 pm
Some OEMs focus on advertisable metrics over real world. That shit drove me absolutely mad at Stellanus, I could go on and on about ethically questionable things I had to implement to game the system and make cars look better on paper than they are for actual customers. If it sounds too good to be true, it absolutely is. 40mpg city in a hybrid crossover without an EV mode? :yeahok:

It just so happens that somehow some of these OEMs that screw over customers are also media darlings that can do no wrong in comparison tests. I was in that POS field too. Once an OEM is on the media's good side, it takes A LOT to change it. Then they do media goodwill products like the Hype R or Trackhawk, or whatever thing the media always asks for, and the OEM is gold forever, even if the other products kind of blow IRL.
That's corporate America. Everything has to be a metric and everyone wants to manipulate the metric until it supports their agenda.
Kind of. Some companies are better than others from my experience. I actually consulted lawyers on some things. I never had to do that at GM.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:42 am
Huckleberry wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:08 am

That's corporate America. Everything has to be a metric and everyone wants to manipulate the metric until it supports their agenda.
Kind of. Some companies are better than others from my experience. I actually consulted lawyers on some things. I never had to do that at GM.
I always felt like GM and FCA were the two sides of the same coin. I disliked working with them both, but for totally different reasons :D
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MrH42 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:34 am
Detroit wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:42 am
Kind of. Some companies are better than others from my experience. I actually consulted lawyers on some things. I never had to do that at GM.
I always felt like GM and FCA were the two sides of the same coin. I disliked working with them both, but for totally different reasons :D
100% accurate.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 pm
Johnny_P wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm

Feels like a lot of stuff is covered up / less honest.

Like the car is getting 25 mpg city / 40 highway when it’s rated 40 city / 35 highway. Plenty of forum discussions on gas mileage allude to the CRV hybrid (and other Honda hybrids) not achieving fuel listed fuel economy.

It’s also listed as the most powerful CRV at 212 HP. But that’s also a lie. The electric motor is like 185 HP and most of the time it is all that’s driving the wheels. There is a chance it can have up to 212 if you have a full battery and the gas motor is clutched in at highway speed but that basically never happens.

Then all the weird packaging and horrible tech really make me question how this thing scores so well in comparisons.
Some OEMs focus on advertisable metrics over real world. That shit drove me absolutely mad at Stellanus, I could go on and on about ethically questionable things I had to implement to game the system and make cars look better on paper than they are for actual customers. If it sounds too good to be true, it absolutely is. 40mpg city in a hybrid crossover without an EV mode? :yeahok:

It just so happens that somehow some of these OEMs that screw over customers are also media darlings that can do no wrong in comparison tests. I was in that POS field too. Once an OEM is on the media's good side, it takes A LOT to change it. Then they do media goodwill products like the Hype R or Trackhawk, or whatever thing the media always asks for, and the OEM is gold forever, even if the other products kind of blow IRL.
Don't get me :wrong: , stuff like the Type R and GR86 are awesome, but I find it funny they are such a huge focus in auto journalism. I get in journalism, they are what sell (YouTube viewershit, mag purchasing, clicks, etc) but in reality they represent an absolutely tiny percentage of auto sales.
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Doesn't the Prius do like 60 mpg city? Seems like a hybrid SUV should be able to do 40, as long as it's basically a lifted Prius.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:58 am Doesn't the Prius do like 60 mpg city? Seems like a hybrid SUV should be able to do 40, as long as it's basically a lifted Prius.
The hybrid Maverick does 40 city.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:58 am Doesn't the Prius do like 60 mpg city? Seems like a hybrid SUV should be able to do 40, as long as it's basically a lifted Prius.
It's not though, the CR-V is more like a Volt without a big enough battery for any real EV Range. My Volt in gas mode (which is like the CR-V all the time) "only" got 40ish in the city, which is way below a Prius despite being a similar vehicle in size, shape, weight.

The whole gas engine only as a generator thing has proven to be not that great for efficiency. That's all the CR-V uses. At least a Volt can go in EV mode, the CR-V's is extremely limited.

My guess is that the battery is just big enough to provide electric-only juice in the EPA test cycle, thus getting the 40mpg or whatever. IRL tho, nobody drives like the EPA test cycle, so the number is :bs:

Some OEMs care about real-world performance, others only care about the number. Seems like Honda is of the latter, just like Stellanus.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 am
Detroit wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:44 pm
Some OEMs focus on advertisable metrics over real world. That shit drove me absolutely mad at Stellanus, I could go on and on about ethically questionable things I had to implement to game the system and make cars look better on paper than they are for actual customers. If it sounds too good to be true, it absolutely is. 40mpg city in a hybrid crossover without an EV mode? :yeahok:

It just so happens that somehow some of these OEMs that screw over customers are also media darlings that can do no wrong in comparison tests. I was in that POS field too. Once an OEM is on the media's good side, it takes A LOT to change it. Then they do media goodwill products like the Hype R or Trackhawk, or whatever thing the media always asks for, and the OEM is gold forever, even if the other products kind of blow IRL.
Don't get me :wrong: , stuff like the Type R and GR86 are awesome, but I find it funny they are such a huge focus in auto journalism. I get in journalism, they are what sell (YouTube viewershit, mag purchasing, clicks, etc) but in reality they represent an absolutely tiny percentage of auto sales.
Right, which is why it's so hard to bring such vehicles to market. Sales volume is miniscule, they're almost always a negative hit to CAFE (which is a big damned deal this days), and the overall development cost is far higher than it seems like it should be. Which is also why the things end up being so expensive and more "halo" like the Hype R. Which makes me even more :mindblown: by the GR86.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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RLWake wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:17 pm
troyguitar wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:58 am Doesn't the Prius do like 60 mpg city? Seems like a hybrid SUV should be able to do 40, as long as it's basically a lifted Prius.
The hybrid Maverick does 40 city.
We'll see how that translates to real world.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:58 am Doesn't the Prius do like 60 mpg city? Seems like a hybrid SUV should be able to do 40, as long as it's basically a lifted Prius.
It's not though, the CR-V is more like a Volt without a big enough battery for any real EV Range. My Volt in gas mode (which is like the CR-V all the time) "only" got 40ish in the city, which is way below a Prius despite being a similar vehicle in size, shape, weight.

The whole gas engine only as a generator thing has proven to be not that great for efficiency. That's all the CR-V uses. At least a Volt can go in EV mode, the CR-V's is extremely limited.

My guess is that the battery is just big enough to provide electric-only juice in the EPA test cycle, thus getting the 40mpg or whatever. IRL tho, nobody drives like the EPA test cycle, so the number is :bs:

Some OEMs care about real-world performance, others only care about the number. Seems like Honda is of the latter, just like Stellanus.
Ahhh yeah I am not familiar with the Honda hybrids other than the OG Insight which is still the coolest appliance car made in my lifetime IMO. Too bad they apparently never got better at that game.
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