Car Talk 4: Troyconomics

Brothers of brub and brap, this is your safe space.
User avatar
Desertbreh
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 8707
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:31 pm
Location: Beyond Thunderdome

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm

Detroit wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:27 am
D Griff wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:58 am


Pretty epic for sure. I would love to live in UT, that place is awesome. I don't think :tits: will ever go for it :doe: .
Mine would actually. We're both very over the rat race and starting to discuss exit strategies...
Utah is beautiful, but the personnel, other than someplace like Park City, is, uh, not compatible with DFDers AT ALL.
max225 wrote: You can't "hoon" a pos like that. You can however set up a methlab.

User avatar
Desertbreh
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 8707
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:31 pm
Location: Beyond Thunderdome

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:23 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm
Detroit wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:27 am

Mine would actually. We're both very over the rat race and starting to discuss exit strategies...
Utah is beautiful, but the personnel, other than someplace like Park City, is, uh, not compatible with DFDers AT ALL.
Michelle and Chris, the voluntarily infertile people. Yeah, you guys will be THE HIT of the block party in Provo.
max225 wrote: You can't "hoon" a pos like that. You can however set up a methlab.

User avatar
Detroit
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 32249
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:10 am
Drives: Camdalf the Brub

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:28 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:23 pm
Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm


Utah is beautiful, but the personnel, other than someplace like Park City, is, uh, not compatible with DFDers AT ALL.
Michelle and Chris, the voluntarily infertile people. Yeah, you guys will be THE HIT of the block party in Provo.
Ever been to Hurricane? Might be the most beautiful area in the country with people completely different from the rest of UT. No idea how it happened, but it's epic. Agreed, I'm out of St. George, Provo, SLC, etc.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

User avatar
max225
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 24056
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:49 am
Drives: JCW Clowncar

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:31 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm
Detroit wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:27 am

Mine would actually. We're both very over the rat race and starting to discuss exit strategies...
Utah is beautiful, but the personnel, other than someplace like Park City, is, uh, not compatible with DFDers AT ALL.
I would have to agree...
Strange liquor laws
Epic inbreeding
Bible/Gold plate humping mandatory

That's 3 strikes for the DFD crew.

User avatar
Apex
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 24903
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:36 pm
Drives: CookieMonster
Location: NJ

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:37 pm

Sounds like I’d fit right in! :lol:

User avatar
Desertbreh
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 8707
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:31 pm
Location: Beyond Thunderdome

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:40 pm

Detroit wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:28 pm
Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:23 pm


Michelle and Chris, the voluntarily infertile people. Yeah, you guys will be THE HIT of the block party in Provo.
Ever been to Hurricane? Might be the most beautiful area in the country with people completely different from the rest of UT. No idea how it happened, but it's epic. Agreed, I'm out of St. George, Provo, SLC, etc.
That's a pretty small Alamo to fight off The Church of Latter Day Saints brah.
max225 wrote: You can't "hoon" a pos like that. You can however set up a methlab.

User avatar
D Griff
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:49 am
Drives: AARPurple Brub Tub

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:17 pm

:iono: I am not quite as left wing as most of DFD but still pretty left wing. At my previous employ, we did a ton of business with the Church of Latter Day Saints and they were great people to work with. My current company also acquired Control4 recently - they're headquartered in SLC and plenty of those peeps are mormons... while I'd feel more comfortable around them if they'd drop a few f-bombs, they've overall been pretty cool to work with.

User avatar
Zillon
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 22503
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:11 pm
Drives: 2016 Portapotty
Location: Dirty JerZ

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:25 pm

CorvetteWaxer wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:20 pm
max225 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:33 pm
So is the engine longitudinal now vs transverse? I wonder who the target demo is on the explorer. This vs the Telluride would be a tough comparo since the explorer looks to have moved way up market in terms of pricing.
Target demo:. Seems to be police agencies to me.

Anytime a civilian version comes up on me that is either white or black my :knot: puckers just a bit.
Really hard to tell if it has crossbars installed.

Sometimes they look like light bars.

Also, PA State Troopers drive gray ones. :narc:
Zildor the Magnificent
Mazderp Dillerman Extraordinaire
Garage: 2016 Heep | 2009 Meata

User avatar
Desertbreh
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 8707
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:31 pm
Location: Beyond Thunderdome

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:58 pm

D Griff wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:17 pm
:iono: I am not quite as left wing as most of DFD but still pretty left wing. At my previous employ, we did a ton of business with the Church of Latter Day Saints and they were great people to work with. My current company also acquired Control4 recently - they're headquartered in SLC and plenty of those peeps are mormons... while I'd feel more comfortable around them if they'd drop a few f-bombs, they've overall been pretty cool to work with.
They are an industrious bunch. The whole "beehive state" thing literally comes from "busy as a beehive." You and the Mrs. will just find it a lot tougher sledding to find those city bars to watch the Panthers on.
max225 wrote: You can't "hoon" a pos like that. You can however set up a methlab.

User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 33298
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:52 am
Drives: Mk6Veyron
Location: Pepperland

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:31 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:23 pm
Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm


Utah is beautiful, but the personnel, other than someplace like Park City, is, uh, not compatible with DFDers AT ALL.
Michelle and Chris, the voluntarily infertile people. Yeah, you guys will be THE HIT of the block party in Provo.
:lolol:
:wap: Where are these mangos?

User avatar
D Griff
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:49 am
Drives: AARPurple Brub Tub

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:41 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:58 pm
D Griff wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:17 pm
:iono: I am not quite as left wing as most of DFD but still pretty left wing. At my previous employ, we did a ton of business with the Church of Latter Day Saints and they were great people to work with. My current company also acquired Control4 recently - they're headquartered in SLC and plenty of those peeps are mormons... while I'd feel more comfortable around them if they'd drop a few f-bombs, they've overall been pretty cool to work with.
They are an industrious bunch. The whole "beehive state" thing literally comes from "busy as a beehive." You and the Mrs. will just find it a lot tougher sledding to find those city bars to watch the Panthers on.
It's never gonna happen so not really an issue. She's dead set on staying in the Carolinas I think... which is fine.

User avatar
Desertbreh
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 8707
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:31 pm
Location: Beyond Thunderdome

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 pm

D Griff wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:41 pm
Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:58 pm


They are an industrious bunch. The whole "beehive state" thing literally comes from "busy as a beehive." You and the Mrs. will just find it a lot tougher sledding to find those city bars to watch the Panthers on.
It's never gonna happen so not really an issue. She's dead set on staying in the Carolinas I think... which is fine.
That's a lot better than being dead set on staying in the Dakotas.
max225 wrote: You can't "hoon" a pos like that. You can however set up a methlab.

User avatar
D Griff
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:49 am
Drives: AARPurple Brub Tub

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:03 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 pm
D Griff wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:41 pm


It's never gonna happen so not really an issue. She's dead set on staying in the Carolinas I think... which is fine.
That's a lot better than being dead set on staying in the Dakotas.
Yeah I'm happy here, just kinda limited employment in my field but it seems like that can be worked out :notbad:

User avatar
MexicanYarisTK
First Sirloin
First Sirloin
Posts: 6209
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:14 am
Drives: a car w/ an auschwitz dipstick
Location: 23 miles from the White Haus

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 pm

thoughts on dis, go to 3:05
Zillon wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 pm
Honesty is the best :alpo: policy.
check my yarii fools @tkmk777

User avatar
max225
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 24056
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:49 am
Drives: JCW Clowncar

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:33 pm

MexicanYarisTK wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 pm
thoughts on dis, go to 3:05
There is only 1 person that can afford this, on this forum and that person wants a big dick diesel not some Oriental School bus.

User avatar
Barnes93cb
Senior Chief Patty Officer
Senior Chief Patty Officer
Posts: 3343
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:20 am
Drives: Turbro Go Kart/ Yamaha Bolt
Location: West Tejas

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 pm

dubshow wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:29 am
Barnes93cb wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:44 am

I want to talk with you about them. They seemed so cool. And I didn’t know they were so affordable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Check my insta yo. @dubshow
Yeah I’m already following. The car is beautiful. I’m more curious about info between FF and vee. Granted I have no track time and only a few autocross runs under my belt. So I need more time to determine my budget and how much I’m willing to put into this or my vw.

I was looking for insight as to how the races go, what are your major expenses, which class would you do if you could restart the process, why did you get into a vee?

Pretty much I want your life story and when you think a person might be ready for the jump.

User avatar
dubshow
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 9196
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:18 am
Drives: All of them

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:44 pm

Barnes93cb wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 pm
dubshow wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:29 am


Check my insta yo. @dubshow
Yeah I’m already following. The car is beautiful. I’m more curious about info between FF and vee. Granted I have no track time and only a few autocross runs under my belt. So I need more time to determine my budget and how much I’m willing to put into this or my vw.

I was looking for insight as to how the races go, what are your major expenses, which class would you do if you could restart the process, why did you get into a vee?

Pretty much I want your life story and when you think a person might be ready for the jump.
That's a lot to type up. Pm me your number and we can talk on the ole phone.

Basically form vee is a "cheaper" cost of entry that is slower than form ford. I found this for $5k. Consumables are cheap on air-cooled vw shit. It fit budget and was cool. Hindsight, idk. I like being fast locally. It's not competitive nationally.

Down side is not much competition in class. Always fun to be top pack in raw time for autox events.

My car balances between "vintage" with a few modern upgrades. Pure vintage OG minty cars fetch around 10-15k. Modern built Vees with the old 1200cc fetch around 10-18k race ready but there just aren't many running nationally. Apexspeed is the forum for the hold out vee racers.

Formula First was a good class to modernize the car and run a widely available 1600 cc with disc brakes and better suspension. My car is half and half between classes. So it's a mutt for autox in current config. You need to assess what kind of racing you want to do. Wheel to wheel on track, the vee is limited and you are better off with your R. That's too nice? Get a Miata.
This post is illegal in the European Union.

User avatar
Barnes93cb
Senior Chief Patty Officer
Senior Chief Patty Officer
Posts: 3343
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:20 am
Drives: Turbro Go Kart/ Yamaha Bolt
Location: West Tejas

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:52 pm

dubshow wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:44 pm
Barnes93cb wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 pm


Yeah I’m already following. The car is beautiful. I’m more curious about info between FF and vee. Granted I have no track time and only a few autocross runs under my belt. So I need more time to determine my budget and how much I’m willing to put into this or my vw.

I was looking for insight as to how the races go, what are your major expenses, which class would you do if you could restart the process, why did you get into a vee?

Pretty much I want your life story and when you think a person might be ready for the jump.
That's a lot to type up. Pm me your number and we can talk on the ole phone.

Basically form vee is a "cheaper" cost of entry that is slower than form ford. I found this for $5k. Consumables are cheap on air-cooled vw shit. It fit budget and was cool. Hindsight, idk. I like being fast locally. It's not competitive nationally.

Down side is not much competition in class. Always fun to be top pack in raw time for autox events.

My car balances between "vintage" with a few modern upgrades. Pure vintage OG minty cars fetch around 10-15k. Modern built Vees with the old 1200cc fetch around 10-18k race ready but there just aren't many running nationally. Apexspeed is the forum for the hold out vee racers.

Formula First was a good class to modernize the car and run a widely available 1600 cc with disc brakes and better suspension. My car is half and half between classes. So it's a mutt for autox in current config. You need to assess what kind of racing you want to do. Wheel to wheel on track, the vee is limited and you are better off with your R. That's too nice? Get a Miata.
Lol I’ve got a shitty Miata and the r32. Haha

Thanks for the info. I’ll shoot you my number. But I can’t talk tonight. Doing homework.

User avatar
golftdibrad
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 14701
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:01 am
Drives: Turbo Yaris, Clear Miata/MR2

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:05 am

Barnes93cb wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 pm
dubshow wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:29 am


Check my insta yo. @dubshow
Yeah I’m already following. The car is beautiful. I’m more curious about info between FF and vee. Granted I have no track time and only a few autocross runs under my belt. So I need more time to determine my budget and how much I’m willing to put into this or my vw.

I was looking for insight as to how the races go, what are your major expenses, which class would you do if you could restart the process, why did you get into a vee?

Pretty much I want your life story and when you think a person might be ready for the jump.
Heyo. I think I'm the only one on here that's done actual wheel to wheel shit.

You need more time behind the wheel to see what you like. The jump to an open wheel car is a huge one. For one, you will need a truck to haul all this shit. They are fast. They are maintenance intensive. If you fuck up they can kill you (on a big track).

Do you want track days or club racing? You need the former in order to be competent for the later.

I'd recommend doing a school like whatever Barber racing turned into. They did a two day thing where they start you in a car then you go to a low grip FF type thing.

https://www.skipbarber.com/

Another path is to do Lemons, champcar, or AER.
NASA is another organization to look at. Lookk on the forums for a rental seat from a mid their or low tier team to start. Lots of seat time for the money.
Weekly :fax:
? wrote: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid."

User avatar
Detroit
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 32249
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:10 am
Drives: Camdalf the Brub

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:47 am

MexicanYarisTK wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 pm
thoughts on dis, go to 3:05
I was just talking to a coworker about this yesterday. While it makes cool YouTube content, I highly doubt any normal person (the people who buy these things) will notice a difference between this and a really good air suspension setup.
Desertbreh wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:40 pm
My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.

User avatar
D Griff
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:49 am
Drives: AARPurple Brub Tub

Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:44 am

golftdibrad wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:05 am
Barnes93cb wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 pm


Yeah I’m already following. The car is beautiful. I’m more curious about info between FF and vee. Granted I have no track time and only a few autocross runs under my belt. So I need more time to determine my budget and how much I’m willing to put into this or my vw.

I was looking for insight as to how the races go, what are your major expenses, which class would you do if you could restart the process, why did you get into a vee?

Pretty much I want your life story and when you think a person might be ready for the jump.
Heyo. I think I'm the only one on here that's done actual wheel to wheel shit.

You need more time behind the wheel to see what you like. The jump to an open wheel car is a huge one. For one, you will need a truck to haul all this shit. They are fast. They are maintenance intensive. If you fuck up they can kill you (on a big track).

Do you want track days or club racing? You need the former in order to be competent for the later.

I'd recommend doing a school like whatever Barber racing turned into. They did a two day thing where they start you in a car then you go to a low grip FF type thing.

https://www.skipbarber.com/

Another path is to do Lemons, champcar, or AER.
NASA is another organization to look at. Lookk on the forums for a rental seat from a mid their or low tier team to start. Lots of seat time for the money.
:word: I haven't done wheel-to-wheel but have a solid handful of track days and a couple dozen autox under my belt over the years. Barnes, I feel like you've flopped around between a few cars, talked about tracking a lot, continued shopping, etc. I'd reiterate what Brad said and say, just go out and get some seat time. Do like 10 track days in your VW and see how you like it, what's good, what's bad. I am pretty happy just doing HPDE and don't feel the need to get into club racing, although I hope to one day, maybe like 25 years down the line when I have more time post CF.

User avatar
dubshow
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 9196
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:18 am
Drives: All of them

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:19 pm

Desertbreh wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm
Detroit wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:27 am

Mine would actually. We're both very over the rat race and starting to discuss exit strategies...
Utah is beautiful, but the personnel, other than someplace like Park City, is, uh, not compatible with DFDers AT ALL.
Fuck your religious beliefs. Separation mother fucker.
This post is illegal in the European Union.

User avatar
dubshow
Senior Master Sirloin
Senior Master Sirloin
Posts: 9196
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:18 am
Drives: All of them

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 pm

golftdibrad wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:05 am
Barnes93cb wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 pm


Yeah I’m already following. The car is beautiful. I’m more curious about info between FF and vee. Granted I have no track time and only a few autocross runs under my belt. So I need more time to determine my budget and how much I’m willing to put into this or my vw.

I was looking for insight as to how the races go, what are your major expenses, which class would you do if you could restart the process, why did you get into a vee?

Pretty much I want your life story and when you think a person might be ready for the jump.
Heyo. I think I'm the only one on here that's done actual wheel to wheel shit.

You need more time behind the wheel to see what you like. The jump to an open wheel car is a huge one. For one, you will need a truck to haul all this shit. They are fast. They are maintenance intensive. If you fuck up they can kill you (on a big track).

Do you want track days or club racing? You need the former in order to be competent for the later.

I'd recommend doing a school like whatever Barber racing turned into. They did a two day thing where they start you in a car then you go to a low grip FF type thing.

https://www.skipbarber.com/

Another path is to do Lemons, champcar, or AER.
NASA is another organization to look at. Lookk on the forums for a rental seat from a mid their or low tier team to start. Lots of seat time for the money.
:dat: is spelled out pretty well. I have less seat time than :fax: but have done on and off autox for years. I havent graduated to a full track day yet. Once I open that can of worms, it will be expensive.

I'd recommend going to open track days HPDE (Track night in America) then nasa events. Find a class you like. The R is perfect for going that route, but it seems like a really nice car to become a track rat that will take abuse.

https://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/
This post is illegal in the European Union.

User avatar
4zilch
First Sirloin
First Sirloin
Posts: 5300
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:42 am
Drives: Ford Party ST
Location: Columbus, IN

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:21 pm

dubshow wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 pm
golftdibrad wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:05 am


Heyo. I think I'm the only one on here that's done actual wheel to wheel shit.

You need more time behind the wheel to see what you like. The jump to an open wheel car is a huge one. For one, you will need a truck to haul all this shit. They are fast. They are maintenance intensive. If you fuck up they can kill you (on a big track).

Do you want track days or club racing? You need the former in order to be competent for the later.

I'd recommend doing a school like whatever Barber racing turned into. They did a two day thing where they start you in a car then you go to a low grip FF type thing.

https://www.skipbarber.com/

Another path is to do Lemons, champcar, or AER.
NASA is another organization to look at. Lookk on the forums for a rental seat from a mid their or low tier team to start. Lots of seat time for the money.
:dat: is spelled out pretty well. I have less seat time than :fax: but have done on and off autox for years. I havent graduated to a full track day yet. Once I open that can of worms, it will be expensive.

I'd recommend going to open track days HPDE (Track night in America) then nasa events. Find a class you like. The R is perfect for going that route, but it seems like a really nice car to become a track rat that will take abuse.

https://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/
:dat: :dat: :dat:
Melon wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 pm
Don't discuss things you want on here.

This is only a place for 100% facts.

User avatar
MexicanYarisTK
First Sirloin
First Sirloin
Posts: 6209
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:14 am
Drives: a car w/ an auschwitz dipstick
Location: 23 miles from the White Haus

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:28 pm

Detroit wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:47 am
MexicanYarisTK wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 pm
thoughts on dis, go to 3:05
I was just talking to a coworker about this yesterday. While it makes cool YouTube content, I highly doubt any normal person (the people who buy these things) will notice a difference between this and a really good air suspension setup.
:dat: it's almost like they are dumping money on these features even though the majority will stick to normal mode. :sad:

I think it's kinda cool to autocross, but I would only get this as a daily if I'm really rich.
Zillon wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 pm
Honesty is the best :alpo: policy.
check my yarii fools @tkmk777

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests