Democratic Socialists

Want to pledge allegiance to the Drumpf? Clash with Caspian? Scared of the stickers on your mailbox? Let's hear it.
User avatar
troyguitar
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:15 pm
Drives: Trek Domane
Location: Swamp

:pouroneout:

Image
User avatar
Apex
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 29815
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Drives: Abominable
Location: NJ

Bernie still :wrong:
User avatar
troyguitar
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:15 pm
Drives: Trek Domane
Location: Swamp

Apex wrote:Bernie still :wrong:
:dat:

A gun in every hand would solve it all. Everyone gets one bullet, use it wisely.
User avatar
Apex
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 29815
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Drives: Abominable
Location: NJ

troyguitar wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:35 pm
Apex wrote:Bernie still :wrong:
:dat:

A gun in every hand would solve it all. Everyone gets one bullet, use it wisely.
:notbad:
User avatar
Wocka Wocka
Meat Patty 1st Class
Meat Patty 1st Class
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:37 pm
Drives: Nothing Good

[user not found] wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:41 am Hot take:

The only path to return to Republic/Democratic Capitalism is via Democratic Socialism.

We are not currently Democratic Capitalism. We are some form of Federalist Corporatist government/economy. As one that advocates for true libertarianism, we lack the transparency of information to get there. To get that transparency of information you need to break the back of the current structure. Government isn't our current issue, irresponsible and unanswerable corporations are. For capitalism to function properly, you need democracy of resources and information. As they say in New England, you can't get there from here.

Democratic Socialism would bre a hard break from our current system and would allow the democratization of information. You'd need to stabilize in that system for a bit THEN hard break again into capitalism. It would be extraordinarily costly for folks like me, and I also think it would be well worth it for my children and the larger moral good. Andrew Yang likely had the most straightforward and well developed plan to do so.

Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible, we just can't get there from here. Democratic Socialism is way closer to true capitalism than we have right now.

I like it.

As someone for who it would also be pretty pricey, I'm all for it. Provided it is done appropriately and everyone benefits to the greater good. I'm hesitant to believe that our system is capable of allowing the revolution that would be required to make is successful.

I'm not all about giving government as it exists now more money, because they can't manage the money I give them now. Example: PA's horrid roads.
User avatar
Wocka Wocka
Meat Patty 1st Class
Meat Patty 1st Class
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:37 pm
Drives: Nothing Good

[user not found] wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:00 pm Great example from just today about how we aren't capitalistic right now but Corporatist

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/let-t ... out-people
Nail on the head. Nothing should be too big to fail. Sort out your own shit.
User avatar
troyguitar
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:15 pm
Drives: Trek Domane
Location: Swamp


[user not found] wrote:Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible
Can you define that?

Apparently I don't know what capitalism means. I generally equate it with anarchy, survival of the fittest, etc. Having any kind of laws should be unnecessary, bad behavior will be discouraged by the market. All we need for everything to be perfect is to throw out the rulebook and let the market decide it all organically. He who has the most capital is the most right.
User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 45160
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:52 pm
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

[user not found] wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:41 am Hot take:

The only path to return to Republic/Democratic Capitalism is via Democratic Socialism.

We are not currently Democratic Capitalism. We are some form of Federalist Corporatist government/economy. As one that advocates for true libertarianism, we lack the transparency of information to get there. To get that transparency of information you need to break the back of the current structure. Government isn't our current issue, irresponsible and unanswerable corporations are. For capitalism to function properly, you need democracy of resources and information. As they say in New England, you can't get there from here.

Democratic Socialism would bre a hard break from our current system and would allow the democratization of information. You'd need to stabilize in that system for a bit THEN hard break again into capitalism. It would be extraordinarily costly for folks like me, and I also think it would be well worth it for my children and the larger moral good. Andrew Yang likely had the most straightforward and well developed plan to do so.

Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible, we just can't get there from here. Democratic Socialism is way closer to true capitalism than we have right now.
:butwhy: hard break back? Seems to me this presupposes that capitalism can not exist in a Democratic Socialist society. They coexist just fine in most of the rest of the world.

Or is this again a matter of definition?
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
User avatar
troyguitar
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:15 pm
Drives: Trek Domane
Location: Swamp

How is a market truly free if it's full of rules? In a truly free market, I could kill you to take your capital. You could pay someone to protect you, but no one would otherwise be obligated to do so.
User avatar
troyguitar
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Command Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:15 pm
Drives: Trek Domane
Location: Swamp

To use a less sinister example, in a truly free market you could pay me to do something and I would in no way be obligated to actually do it. Your recourse would be to spread word of my misdeeds - or, of course, to take your capital back by force.
User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 45160
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:52 pm
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

[user not found] wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:02 pm
wap wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:41 pm

:butwhy: hard break back? Seems to me this presupposes that capitalism can not exist in a Democratic Socialist society. They coexist just fine in most of the rest of the world.

Or is this again a matter of definition?
Philosophical difference. Absolutely they exist "just fine" in the rest of the world but, my philosophy is, a properly constructed capitalist market can out perform and provide a better life.
:word:
Based on :wat: , :doe: ? Can you point to one country that has a "properly" (whatever that is) constructed capitalist market? I can point to many where a capitalist economy exists very well in a Socialist society.
As you said, it's a matter of spectra.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 45160
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:52 pm
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

[user not found] wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:19 pm
wap wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:16 pm :word:
Based on :wat: , :doe: ? Can you point to one country that has a "properly" (whatever that is) constructed capitalist market? I can point to many where a capitalist economy exists very well in a Socialist society.
As you said, it's a matter of spectra.
No, but not through in ability. It's simply never been attempted. On the spectrum, this would be way closer to European Social Capitalism than it would be to U.S. Corporatism.
So it doesn't sound like it would be that drastic a swing then, in your scenario above. :like:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
Post Reply