Healthcare and the .Gov

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dubshow
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Nearly all of us have a vested interest in this sinking ship of healthcare, we should have a thread. In the US, we can universally agree that our healthcare system is really messed up. Sure, it has its merits, and that is to be greatly expected in the country the runs literally every aspect of the globe. Its very sad that you can't hold a middle "class/wage" job and easily be able to go buy an insurance policy in case you get sick. its also sad how far the actual cost of health care are ballooned.

Sure, you should be able to seek out world class medical help. We are the largest and wealthiest first world nation. We are also the only to my knowledge that isnt fully socialized. Anyone welcome to provide more detail on fully private pay world class health service countries. I don't think they exist.


DO NOT ATTACK SOMEONE PERSONALLY

Your rebuttal should have a source to reference your position

I ask:

1. What has caused healthcare cost in the US grown so rapidly and unsustainably?

I think these charts do an excellent job summarizing a complex issue from 1965 to 2013.
http://mediatrackers.org/2013/10/01/8-c ... are-costs/

2. What is the .gov's role to mediate/offer/supply health insurance.

3. What has the Fed .gov/program done well, literally ever, that isnt doomed to failure?

4. Why is our cost so far out of line in terms of cost to GDP with other countries that rank higher in providing care?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... se.svg.png

:thisisfine:
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Make healthcare affordable again
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[user not found] wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:51 pm Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.

The more they charge, the more the rates go up, the more they charge - it's all about maintaining profit margins.

Healthcare should not be for profit.
:dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat:
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[user not found] wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:51 pm Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.

The more they charge, the more the rates go up, the more they charge - it's all about maintaining profit margins.

Healthcare should not be for profit.
eh..... i think we need to do something about the big corporations being greedy...buttttttt profit is not a bad thing. Why would people become dr's in the first place then? The problem is crony capitalism.

except for insurance profits. We need to get rid of obamacare, employer based plans, and medicare. Watch the prices crash and the system modernize over a year. will it be painful for the insurance companies? yup, but fuck them. They need oversight.

side note for those that don't know: employer based insurance became a thing to shelter people from the high income tax rates of the late 50's, 60's and 70's. Companies would offer a good plan that was pretax but part of your compensation to get you in a lower tax bracket. Yet another problem created by government by both high taxes AND allowing insurance costs to be a pre-tax benefit.

Side note on why would people become dr's / lack of medical professionals entering workforce: Its an artificial restriction by various industry groups. They literally will not licence additional medical schools....they won't allow additional enrolment... for the stated purpose of keeping dr supply low and demand high :disgust: gotta get rid of that too.

Get rid of insurance and government shit and we can get nurse prac's that can deal with colds and shit..prescribe basic pre approved meds... modernize and increase efficiency. An analogy would be building code: engineers do the work so any :derp: builder and a crew of day labor can build a :haus: that can withstand 140+ mph winds, with very little oversight. Typically like 3 inspection points. The codes are so well written that the inspectors are not even engineers.


All this said at this point I'd rather just pay the shit though taxes and and watch the world burn :thisisfine: vs ever having to :dill: with plans, an insurance company, open enrolment, etc, etc, etc. Whole system is fuckt :salt: :deadhorse: .
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:27 am
[user not found] wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:51 pm Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.

The more they charge, the more the rates go up, the more they charge - it's all about maintaining profit margins.

Healthcare should not be for profit.
eh..... i think we need to do something about the big corporations being greedy...buttttttt profit is not a bad thing. Why would people become dr's in the first place then? The problem is crony capitalism.

except for insurance profits. We need to get rid of obamacare, employer based plans, and medicare. Watch the prices crash and the system modernize over a year. will it be painful for the insurance companies? yup, but fuck them. They need oversight.

side note for those that don't know: employer based insurance became a thing to shelter people from the high income tax rates of the late 50's, 60's and 70's. Companies would offer a good plan that was pretax but part of your compensation to get you in a lower tax bracket. Yet another problem created by government by both high taxes AND allowing insurance costs to be a pre-tax benefit.

Side note on why would people become dr's / lack of medical professionals entering workforce: Its an artificial restriction by various industry groups. They literally will not licence additional medical schools....they won't allow additional enrolment... for the stated purpose of keeping dr supply low and demand high :disgust: gotta get rid of that too.

Get rid of insurance and government shit and we can get nurse prac's that can deal with colds and shit..prescribe basic pre approved meds... modernize and increase efficiency. An analogy would be building code: engineers do the work so any :derp: builder and a crew of day labor can build a :haus: that can withstand 140+ mph winds, with very little oversight. Typically like 3 inspection points. The codes are so well written that the inspectors are not even engineers.


All this said at this point I'd rather just pay the shit though taxes and and watch the world burn :thisisfine: vs ever having to :dill: with plans, an insurance company, open enrolment, etc, etc, etc. Whole system is fuckt :salt: :deadhorse: .
Pretty much :dat:
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Currently dealing with this with the wife. I have insurance thru work. She doesn't. She had it last year and then dropped it. To get onto my plan would cost me an extra $400/mo. Which is fucking ridiculous. Last year we lost nearly all of our taxes because she had ACA and I didn't. We got married that year so when I went to file jointly our combined income was above the 100-400% poverty level (to qualify for ACA), so we had to pay that extra bit back that ACA covered for her when she was single and paying about $170/mo. Which took ALL of our tax money.
:thanksobama:

We got into yuge fights over money and she took that instance to basically say "see, another way I'm a disaster for our finances". But I wasn't even mad. I'd rather her have insurance and not get any tax money back than not have insurance at all.

Anywho, we're trying to get her back on my plan and pricing it all out right now. Still ain't cheap. Which I think is ridiculous.
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4zilch wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:51 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:27 am

eh..... i think we need to do something about the big corporations being greedy...buttttttt profit is not a bad thing. Why would people become dr's in the first place then? The problem is crony capitalism.

except for insurance profits. We need to get rid of obamacare, employer based plans, and medicare. Watch the prices crash and the system modernize over a year. will it be painful for the insurance companies? yup, but fuck them. They need oversight.

side note for those that don't know: employer based insurance became a thing to shelter people from the high income tax rates of the late 50's, 60's and 70's. Companies would offer a good plan that was pretax but part of your compensation to get you in a lower tax bracket. Yet another problem created by government by both high taxes AND allowing insurance costs to be a pre-tax benefit.

Side note on why would people become dr's / lack of medical professionals entering workforce: Its an artificial restriction by various industry groups. They literally will not licence additional medical schools....they won't allow additional enrolment... for the stated purpose of keeping dr supply low and demand high :disgust: gotta get rid of that too.

Get rid of insurance and government shit and we can get nurse prac's that can deal with colds and shit..prescribe basic pre approved meds... modernize and increase efficiency. An analogy would be building code: engineers do the work so any :derp: builder and a crew of day labor can build a :haus: that can withstand 140+ mph winds, with very little oversight. Typically like 3 inspection points. The codes are so well written that the inspectors are not even engineers.


All this said at this point I'd rather just pay the shit though taxes and and watch the world burn :thisisfine: vs ever having to :dill: with plans, an insurance company, open enrolment, etc, etc, etc. Whole system is fuckt :salt: :deadhorse: .
Pretty much :dat:
:dat:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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1. Illegals
2. Crazy pay for doctors nurses etc
3. For profit schools charging 500k for a doctors degree
4. Healthcare companies making insane money on people, a ct scan should not be 30k in a hospital, medical sales reps should not pul in 200-500k a year

Not in that order but all of that is a crazy amount of issues that simply not be tackled as it is affecting most things about this country.

So all we can do is :thisisfine:

What would I do ?
1. Make medical education free
2. Cap medical profits and standerdize the cost for all procedures For a reasonable cost. $50 x Ray, $30 doc visit etc
3. Start mass deportations
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max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:47 am
3. Start mass deportations
:triggered:
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1. Completely socialized medicine, pay in one big pot, we all benefit.

or

2. 100% Payer funded insurance programs. 100% free of government intervention, other than typical oversight.

Reasonable regulation over pharmaceuticals, how they're sold, produced, and advertised could help as well.
4zilch wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:46 am I'm a fucking failure.
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max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:47 am
3. Start mass deportations
I would counter that with a comprehensive plan for a path to citizenship.
Let's get these fuckers who want to live here paying into the pool.
4zilch wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:46 am I'm a fucking failure.
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Melon wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:54 am
max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:47 am
3. Start mass deportations
I would counter that with a comprehensive plan for a path to citizenship.
Let's get these fuckers who want to live here paying into the pool.
That’s cool and all but then we all end up sponsoring the multiple kids their educations and health care costs /social programs to get them on this “path”. Which is a huge burden on the society playing by the rules.

It’s one thing if we as a society have a small problem with this... i.e <1% of the Population. But when the # is as high as it is today only the hard truth will work. But no one is willing to face it :thisisfine:
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max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:59 am
Melon wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:54 am

I would counter that with a comprehensive plan for a path to citizenship.
Let's get these fuckers who want to live here paying into the pool.
That’s cool and all but then we all end up sponsoring the multiple kids their educations and health care costs /social programs to get them on this “path”. Which is a huge burden on the society playing by the rules.

It’s one thing if we as a society have a small problem with this... i.e <1% of the Population. But when the # is as high as it is today only the hard truth will work. But no one is willing to face it :thisisfine:
We're already doing that now. Point is to allow the ones who wish to live here legally do just that.

Sure, there will be some deportations, but you can establish some criteria for expedited citizenship pathways.

Time spent in the US
Children that are US citizens by birth
Employment history
Criminal record
etc.

Also, on the big picture, social security and military spending are towering over the money spent on social programs for those living here illegally.
4zilch wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:46 am I'm a fucking failure.
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Melon wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:11 am
max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:59 am

That’s cool and all but then we all end up sponsoring the multiple kids their educations and health care costs /social programs to get them on this “path”. Which is a huge burden on the society playing by the rules.

It’s one thing if we as a society have a small problem with this... i.e <1% of the Population. But when the # is as high as it is today only the hard truth will work. But no one is willing to face it :thisisfine:
We're already doing that now. Point is to allow the ones who wish to live here legally do just that.

Sure, there will be some deportations, but you can establish some criteria for expedited citizenship pathways.

Time spent in the US
Children that are US citizens by birth
Employment history
Criminal record
etc.

Also, on the big picture, social security and military spending are towering over the money spent on social programs for those living here illegally.
Yes we’re doing this already and failing as a society.

By definition everyone here illegally has broken the law and is a criminal. They also have no employment history as they can’t be employeed.
So where do you start drawing those lines? And what do you do with the 1000s of new ones coming in daily

Defense and social security spending are separate issues.
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max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:19 am Yes we’re doing this already and failing as a society.
:dat:

Policy needs to change for sure.
max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:19 am Defense and social security spending are separate issues.
You ain't kiddin' brother.

Back to healthcare debates. Sorry to derail.
4zilch wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:46 am I'm a fucking failure.
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Melon wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:54 am
max225 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:47 am
3. Start mass deportations
I would counter that with a comprehensive plan for a path to citizenship.
Let's get these fuckers who want to live here paying into the pool.
#flattax
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[user not found] wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:51 pm Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.

The more they charge, the more the rates go up, the more they charge - it's all about maintaining profit margins.

Healthcare should not be for profit.
Insurance also doesnt always pay out what is billed. So they bill higher in general to hopefully collect that actual needed money. Pretty stupid method of business. Also less people involved in filling with insurance.

Were you able to look at the chart that contrast out of pocket expense on health care vs ins payout?

hint: it corresponds exactly to the fast rise in higher education cost increase along with student loan debt. more .gov money, higher costs.
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wap wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:11 pm
[user not found] wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:51 pm Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.

The more they charge, the more the rates go up, the more they charge - it's all about maintaining profit margins.

Healthcare should not be for profit.
:dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat: :dat:
why would you want anyone to tell you what you can be paid?

:wap: shouldnt make profit on sales. There, how does that even work? Health CARE is a service. That service is provided by a person. Lets the market decide, as it should. Remove the cost inflation of drugs, Dr edu loan debt, .gov money. and it will settle out.
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:23 pm Make healthcare affordable again
No it should be free. And so should Ferraris. Transportation is a human RIGHT.

And all Ferrari dealers should provide free services.
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dubshow wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:21 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:23 pm Make healthcare affordable again
No it should be free. And so should Ferraris. Transportation is a human RIGHT.

And all Ferrari dealers should provide free services. [/sarcasm]
FTFY

Now it makes sense.
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[user not found] wrote:Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.
This is not exactly true.


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[user not found] wrote:
The more they charge, the more the rates go up, the more they charge - it's all about maintaining profit margins.

Healthcare should not be for profit.
This is probably true.


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Calvinball wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:04 pm
[user not found] wrote:Well, it's pretty apparent what's driven higher costs.

Ask the hospital/doctor what your out of pocket cost would be if you paid in cash/yourself vs. insurance.

Insurance gets a higher rate, which is ridiculous. It's akin to the military ordering 7,000 $3000 shovels to burn remaining budget funds.
This is not exactly true.


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