Democratic Socialists

Want to pledge allegiance to the Drumpf? Clash with Caspian? Scared of the stickers on your mailbox? Let's hear it.
User avatar
Irish
Senior Chief Patty Officer
Senior Chief Patty Officer
Posts: 2457
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:37 am
Drives: '12 GIT
Location: Home=Car Town Work=Chocolate Town

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:21 pm

wap wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:09 pm
troyguitar wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:57 pm
His Maserati does 185 :doe:
They took his license, now he don't drive.
He has a limo, rides in the back
He locks the doors in case he's attacked

User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 36719
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:52 am
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:11 pm

Irish wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:21 pm
wap wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:09 pm


They took his license, now he don't drive.
He has a limo, rides in the back
He locks the doors in case he's attacked
:like:

Quick story, back in the 80's Walsh became friends with a local DJ here that became mildly famous, named Steve Dahl. Maybe you remember him from Disco Demolition Night at Comisky Park almost 40 years ago. Anyway, Walsh was singing Life's Been Good live on Dahl's show and he changed the line to,

I got a limo, ride in the trunk.
They lock the doors in case I get drunk.
:wap: Where are these mangos?

User avatar
troyguitar
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 am
Drives: Toyota Ninja Turtle
Location: Hoth

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:57 pm

:pouroneout:

Image

User avatar
Apex
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 27374
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:36 pm
Drives: CookieMonster
Location: NJ

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:33 pm

Bernie still :wrong:

User avatar
troyguitar
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 am
Drives: Toyota Ninja Turtle
Location: Hoth

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:35 pm

Apex wrote:Bernie still :wrong:
:dat:

A gun in every hand would solve it all. Everyone gets one bullet, use it wisely.

User avatar
Apex
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 27374
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:36 pm
Drives: CookieMonster
Location: NJ

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:43 pm

troyguitar wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:35 pm
Apex wrote:Bernie still :wrong:
:dat:

A gun in every hand would solve it all. Everyone gets one bullet, use it wisely.
:notbad:

User avatar
Bender
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 18638
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:40 pm
Drives: Mario Kart

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:41 pm

Hot take:

The only path to return to Republic/Democratic Capitalism is via Democratic Socialism.

We are not currently Democratic Capitalism. We are some form of Federalist Corporatist government/economy. As one that advocates for true libertarianism, we lack the transparency of information to get there. To get that transparency of information you need to break the back of the current structure. Government isn't our current issue, irresponsible and unanswerable corporations are. For capitalism to function properly, you need democracy of resources and information. As they say in New England, you can't get there from here.

Democratic Socialism would bre a hard break from our current system and would allow the democratization of information. You'd need to stabilize in that system for a bit THEN hard break again into capitalism. It would be extraordinarily costly for folks like me, and I also think it would be well worth it for my children and the larger moral good. Andrew Yang likely had the most straightforward and well developed plan to do so.

Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible, we just can't get there from here. Democratic Socialism is way closer to true capitalism than we have right now.
This is the worst kind of discrimination there is: the kind against me!

User avatar
Wocka Wocka
Meat Patty 1st Class
Meat Patty 1st Class
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:37 pm
Drives: Nothing Good

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:58 pm

Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:41 pm
Hot take:

The only path to return to Republic/Democratic Capitalism is via Democratic Socialism.

We are not currently Democratic Capitalism. We are some form of Federalist Corporatist government/economy. As one that advocates for true libertarianism, we lack the transparency of information to get there. To get that transparency of information you need to break the back of the current structure. Government isn't our current issue, irresponsible and unanswerable corporations are. For capitalism to function properly, you need democracy of resources and information. As they say in New England, you can't get there from here.

Democratic Socialism would bre a hard break from our current system and would allow the democratization of information. You'd need to stabilize in that system for a bit THEN hard break again into capitalism. It would be extraordinarily costly for folks like me, and I also think it would be well worth it for my children and the larger moral good. Andrew Yang likely had the most straightforward and well developed plan to do so.

Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible, we just can't get there from here. Democratic Socialism is way closer to true capitalism than we have right now.

I like it.

As someone for who it would also be pretty pricey, I'm all for it. Provided it is done appropriately and everyone benefits to the greater good. I'm hesitant to believe that our system is capable of allowing the revolution that would be required to make is successful.

I'm not all about giving government as it exists now more money, because they can't manage the money I give them now. Example: PA's horrid roads.

User avatar
Bender
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 18638
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:40 pm
Drives: Mario Kart

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:00 pm

Great example from just today about how we aren't capitalistic right now but Corporatist

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/let-t ... out-people
This is the worst kind of discrimination there is: the kind against me!

User avatar
Wocka Wocka
Meat Patty 1st Class
Meat Patty 1st Class
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:37 pm
Drives: Nothing Good

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:08 pm

Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:00 pm
Great example from just today about how we aren't capitalistic right now but Corporatist

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/let-t ... out-people
Nail on the head. Nothing should be too big to fail. Sort out your own shit.

User avatar
troyguitar
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 am
Drives: Toyota Ninja Turtle
Location: Hoth

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:12 pm


Bender wrote:Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible
Can you define that?

Apparently I don't know what capitalism means. I generally equate it with anarchy, survival of the fittest, etc. Having any kind of laws should be unnecessary, bad behavior will be discouraged by the market. All we need for everything to be perfect is to throw out the rulebook and let the market decide it all organically. He who has the most capital is the most right.

User avatar
Bender
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 18638
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:40 pm
Drives: Mario Kart

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:32 pm

troyguitar wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:12 pm
Bender wrote:Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible
Can you define that?

Apparently I don't know what capitalism means. I generally equate it with anarchy, survival of the fittest, etc. Having any kind of laws should be unnecessary, bad behavior will be discouraged by the market. All we need for everything to be perfect is to throw out the rulebook and let the market decide it all organically. He who has the most capital is the most right.
Capitalism is a spectrum. What you are describing is libertarian-anarchtic-capitalism. It's a thing but not the "main" type of capitalism that we are talking about. A pure free market can exist alongside a structured government (pick your government type, they can all work with a free market).

Moralistic Capitalism relies on information as an asset or commodity. Right now, there is no free flow of information. Information is restricted/hidden/obscured. As such, you can't actually make an informed decision as a consumer.

If we take a socialistic approach to information (for example you have to disclose your supply chain, your environmental impacts, health impacts of your product, how you treat your staff, etc) then the consumer can make decisions for themselves. This is an excellent place for the government to involve itself as it wouldn't be manipulating markets but rather ensuring openness to them. We already do this with restaurant inspections. The government sets minimum standards everyone must follow. Above those standards you stay open with a huge grade letter on the front of your establishment. This let's the consumer decide if a B grade restaurant is good enough for them or they want to go to an A.

There would be competitive advantage in making a morally justifiable product.
This is the worst kind of discrimination there is: the kind against me!

User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 36719
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:52 am
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:41 pm

Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:41 pm
Hot take:

The only path to return to Republic/Democratic Capitalism is via Democratic Socialism.

We are not currently Democratic Capitalism. We are some form of Federalist Corporatist government/economy. As one that advocates for true libertarianism, we lack the transparency of information to get there. To get that transparency of information you need to break the back of the current structure. Government isn't our current issue, irresponsible and unanswerable corporations are. For capitalism to function properly, you need democracy of resources and information. As they say in New England, you can't get there from here.

Democratic Socialism would bre a hard break from our current system and would allow the democratization of information. You'd need to stabilize in that system for a bit THEN hard break again into capitalism. It would be extraordinarily costly for folks like me, and I also think it would be well worth it for my children and the larger moral good. Andrew Yang likely had the most straightforward and well developed plan to do so.

Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible, we just can't get there from here. Democratic Socialism is way closer to true capitalism than we have right now.
:butwhy: hard break back? Seems to me this presupposes that capitalism can not exist in a Democratic Socialist society. They coexist just fine in most of the rest of the world.

Or is this again a matter of definition?
:wap: Where are these mangos?

User avatar
troyguitar
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 am
Drives: Toyota Ninja Turtle
Location: Hoth

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:44 pm

How is a market truly free if it's full of rules? In a truly free market, I could kill you to take your capital. You could pay someone to protect you, but no one would otherwise be obligated to do so.

User avatar
troyguitar
Chief Master Sirloin
Chief Master Sirloin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 am
Drives: Toyota Ninja Turtle
Location: Hoth

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:47 pm

To use a less sinister example, in a truly free market you could pay me to do something and I would in no way be obligated to actually do it. Your recourse would be to spread word of my misdeeds - or, of course, to take your capital back by force.

User avatar
Bender
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 18638
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:40 pm
Drives: Mario Kart

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:02 pm

wap wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:41 pm
Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:41 pm
Hot take:

The only path to return to Republic/Democratic Capitalism is via Democratic Socialism.

We are not currently Democratic Capitalism. We are some form of Federalist Corporatist government/economy. As one that advocates for true libertarianism, we lack the transparency of information to get there. To get that transparency of information you need to break the back of the current structure. Government isn't our current issue, irresponsible and unanswerable corporations are. For capitalism to function properly, you need democracy of resources and information. As they say in New England, you can't get there from here.

Democratic Socialism would bre a hard break from our current system and would allow the democratization of information. You'd need to stabilize in that system for a bit THEN hard break again into capitalism. It would be extraordinarily costly for folks like me, and I also think it would be well worth it for my children and the larger moral good. Andrew Yang likely had the most straightforward and well developed plan to do so.

Moral Democratic Capitalism is possible, we just can't get there from here. Democratic Socialism is way closer to true capitalism than we have right now.
:butwhy: hard break back? Seems to me this presupposes that capitalism can not exist in a Democratic Socialist society. They coexist just fine in most of the rest of the world.

Or is this again a matter of definition?
Philosophical difference. Absolutely they exist "just fine" in the rest of the world but, my philosophy is, a properly constructed capitalist market can out perform and provide a better life.
This is the worst kind of discrimination there is: the kind against me!

User avatar
Bender
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 18638
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:40 pm
Drives: Mario Kart

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:05 pm

troyguitar wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:47 pm
To use a less sinister example, in a truly free market you could pay me to do something and I would in no way be obligated to actually do it. Your recourse would be to spread word of my misdeeds - or, of course, to take your capital back by force.
You are correct but this is one definition of capitalism on a spectrum. Anyone that says all forms of capitalism are exclusively of regulation is either intentionally lying or uninformed.

It's like socialism. Socialism includes a capitalistic economy with a broad state services organization AND economies that have full state ownership and control. These things are all spectrums.
This is the worst kind of discrimination there is: the kind against me!

User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 36719
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:52 am
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:16 pm

Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:02 pm
wap wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:41 pm


:butwhy: hard break back? Seems to me this presupposes that capitalism can not exist in a Democratic Socialist society. They coexist just fine in most of the rest of the world.

Or is this again a matter of definition?
Philosophical difference. Absolutely they exist "just fine" in the rest of the world but, my philosophy is, a properly constructed capitalist market can out perform and provide a better life.
:word:
Based on :wat: , :doe: ? Can you point to one country that has a "properly" (whatever that is) constructed capitalist market? I can point to many where a capitalist economy exists very well in a Socialist society.
As you said, it's a matter of spectra.
:wap: Where are these mangos?

User avatar
Bender
Trollistrator
Trollistrator
Posts: 18638
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:40 pm
Drives: Mario Kart

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:19 pm

wap wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:16 pm
Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:02 pm


Philosophical difference. Absolutely they exist "just fine" in the rest of the world but, my philosophy is, a properly constructed capitalist market can out perform and provide a better life.
:word:
Based on :wat: , :doe: ? Can you point to one country that has a "properly" (whatever that is) constructed capitalist market? I can point to many where a capitalist economy exists very well in a Socialist society.
As you said, it's a matter of spectra.
No, but not through in ability. It's simply never been attempted. On the spectrum, this would be way closer to European Social Capitalism than it would be to U.S. Corporatism.
This is the worst kind of discrimination there is: the kind against me!

User avatar
wap
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Chief Master Sirloin of the Wasteful Steak
Posts: 36719
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:52 am
Drives: Blue Meanie
Location: Pepperland

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:35 pm

Bender wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:19 pm
wap wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:16 pm
:word:
Based on :wat: , :doe: ? Can you point to one country that has a "properly" (whatever that is) constructed capitalist market? I can point to many where a capitalist economy exists very well in a Socialist society.
As you said, it's a matter of spectra.
No, but not through in ability. It's simply never been attempted. On the spectrum, this would be way closer to European Social Capitalism than it would be to U.S. Corporatism.
So it doesn't sound like it would be that drastic a swing then, in your scenario above. :like:
:wap: Where are these mangos?

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests