OT 19: Masks On, Clothes Off, Right Hand Left Titty

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max225
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wap wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:05 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:01 pm So we saying that once someone decides to off themselves they won’t do it if they don’t have a gun ? :lolgasm:
I think what is being said that having a gun handy makes it likelier that someone might off themselves in a flash of depression or extreme familiar conflict.

Sadly, I've personally known this to happen. :(
So what do you propose? No guns ?
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max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:07 pm
wap wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:05 pm

I think what is being said that having a gun handy makes it likelier that someone might off themselves in a flash of depression or extreme familiar conflict.

Sadly, I've personally known this to happen. :(
So what do you propose? No guns ?
I'm not proposing anything. What do YOU propose?

I think first something like what :[user not found] said above needs to be done before any serious proposal can be offered:
[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:55 pm
wap wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:27 pm

That's what I'd always heard. Shame so many people don't know/understand/believe/want to believe this.
This is close to the core issue of how we talk about the subject. If we all had baseline facts to start with it would be much easier to agree on how to both preserve that freedom and ensure safety.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:07 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:01 pm So we saying that once someone decides to off themselves they won’t do it if they don’t have a gun ? :lolgasm:
Nope.

https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/article/ ... cide-rates

Access has a huge impact followed by permeance. Additional 90% of failed suiciders never die from suicide.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matt ... /survival/

If you take away the easiest most permanent method, a substantial number of lives are saves.

Some reading on the British Coal Gas Study is required for this topic.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matt ... ves-lives/

The Urge to End It - Understanding Suicide https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/maga ... ide-t.html
Out suicide rate is in line with the rest of the developed word and significantly lower than in some countries that have no access to guns.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:40 pm One of the biggest issue with crime statistics is that they "feel like they should make sense" and most decidedly do not. The discussion we had today would be an entire semester in a master's program, so we didn't even scratch the surface.
I thought they made plenty of sense?

People only tend to feel strongly enough about someone to be violent against them if they know them.

People need enough money and time to think about and pull off bigly violent crimes, so that's not going to be poor minorities masterminding this shit.

Watch any "heist" movie. It takes an intelligent person with resources to pull off big crimes. The exception being driving your :truk: through a peaceful crowd... anyone can do that and get away with almost no consequences. The truly smart people use a car to kill someone, not a gun.
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wap wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:01 pm
[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:55 pm

This is close to the core issue of how we talk about the subject. If we all had baseline facts to start with it would be much easier to agree on how to both preserve that freedom and ensure safety.
Yup.
It's "interesting" how the ATF (I think it's the ATF, or maybe it's the FDA?) is prevented from studying gun-related deaths like traffic fatalities are studied.
It's the CDC, but yeah.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:15 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:10 pm

Out suicide rate is in line with the rest of the developed word and significantly lower than in some countries that have no access to guns.
wrong - we are double the UK and 25% higher than our NATO allies.

Suicides and early death (deaths of despair as they are often called) are a real problem here and guns aren't the core of the issue but they exasperate the issue.
Japan
South Korea
France NATO ally
Finland NATO ally
Sweden NATO ally
Croatia NATO ally are all higher and are all far more restrictive when it comes to gun ownership/access.
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:18 pm
wap wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:01 pm
Yup.
It's "interesting" how the ATF (I think it's the ATF, or maybe it's the FDA?) is prevented from studying gun-related deaths like traffic fatalities are studied.
It's the CDC, but yeah.
:dat: 's it. Fucked up :doe:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:24 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:20 pm

Japan
South Korea
France NATO ally - 10% LOWER
Finland NATO ally - 10% LOWER
Sweden NATO ally - equal
Croatia NATO ally - 10% LOWER
are all higher and are all far more restrictive when it comes to gun ownership/access.
Not sure where you're getting your facts but they aren't correct. Corrections from the WHO are above.

Generally you don't compare Western and Eastern cultures when it comes to suicide as the historical context is so different and it continues to have an impact today.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

https://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.MHSUICIDE

https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.sdg. ... ry?lang=en

For someone who claims to be "in business" with this you seem to have a complete lack of understanding of how to read large data sets. And it is getting a bit tiring constantly poking holes into baseless statements you make here.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:29 pm Let's go for what we are really after... Let's say waiting periods reduced gun suicides by 30% (just a random number, for sake of discussion). That would save about 7,000 american lives a year and all it would require is waiting 3 days for any firearm purchase. Would you support that? If not, why not?

Keep in mind waiting periods have been specifically ruled to be constitutional.
I would support it and I would also argue that if you purchase a firearm you should be required to complete the same level of safety and proficiency you have to show when getting your CWP.

My 2 cents doe
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:05 pm DFD. The forum where everybody makes the same choices and then tells anybody trying to join the club that they are the stupidest motherfucker to ever walk the earth.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:34 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:31 pm

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

https://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.MHSUICIDE

https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.sdg. ... ry?lang=en

For someone who claims to be "in business" with this you seem to have a complete lack of understanding of how to read large data sets. And it is getting a bit tiring constantly poking holes into baseless statements you make here.
No in the suicide business but here's the facts I was using:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate
You just stated you were using the WHO website. Don't change the story to fit YOUR narrative again.

Us Rate is 15.3
Finland is 15.9
France is 17.7
Croatia is 16.5
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I'll make a more interesting statement here. The data is clearly telling that Muslim Majority countries have far lower suicide rates than the western/Judochristian and Atheist nations.

Seems like we need to learn a thing or two from them.
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razr390 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:36 pm
[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:29 pm Let's go for what we are really after... Let's say waiting periods reduced gun suicides by 30% (just a random number, for sake of discussion). That would save about 7,000 american lives a year and all it would require is waiting 3 days for any firearm purchase. Would you support that? If not, why not?

Keep in mind waiting periods have been specifically ruled to be constitutional.
I would support it and I would also argue that if you purchase a firearm you should be required to complete the same level of safety and proficiency you have to show when getting your CWP.

My 2 cents doe
Anything beyond a 1789-era musket should require a license.
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max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm I'll make a more interesting statement here. The data is clearly telling that Muslim Majority countries have far lower suicide rates than the western/Judochristian and Atheist nations.

Seems like we need to learn a thing or two from them.
Don't kill yourself unless you're taking multiple infidels with you. :math:
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm
razr390 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:36 pm

I would support it and I would also argue that if you purchase a firearm you should be required to complete the same level of safety and proficiency you have to show when getting your CWP.

My 2 cents doe
Anything beyond a 1789-era musket should require a license.
Before we license guns we need to license kids. Having kids should be a privilege not a right.
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max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:42 pm
troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm

Anything beyond a 1789-era musket should require a license.
Before we license guns we need to license kids. Having kids should be a privilege not a right.
Agreed, but ultimately and unfortunately there is no way of enforcing this
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm
razr390 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:36 pm

I would support it and I would also argue that if you purchase a firearm you should be required to complete the same level of safety and proficiency you have to show when getting your CWP.

My 2 cents doe
Anything beyond a 1789-era musket should require a license.
And registration.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm

Anything beyond a 1789-era musket should require a license.
And registration.
Plus insurance. Sounds familiar, eh?
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:07 pm
wap wrote:
And registration.
Plus insurance. Sounds familiar, eh?
Yep.

It does, indeed. :like:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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max225
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SAWCE wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:01 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:42 pm

Before we license guns we need to license kids. Having kids should be a privilege not a right.
Agreed, but ultimately and unfortunately there is no way of enforcing this
Then there is no way to enforce guns either.
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[user not found] wrote:Side note I'm a HUGE believer that all firearm owners need EXTENSIVE liability insurance.
In order for owners to actually be held liable, though, the guns need to be registered... therefore why bother with insurance when there's effectively no liability?
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troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:54 pm
[user not found] wrote:Side note I'm a HUGE believer that all firearm owners need EXTENSIVE liability insurance.
In order for owners to actually be held liable, though, the guns need to be registered... therefore why bother with insurance when there's effectively no liability?
Some states require registration. Others not so much.
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:05 pm DFD. The forum where everybody makes the same choices and then tells anybody trying to join the club that they are the stupidest motherfucker to ever walk the earth.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:43 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:42 pm

Before we license guns we need to license kids. Having kids should be a privilege not a right.
This is Nazi shit.
Bullshit. It’s what humanity needs to survive and prolong whatever resources are left on the planet
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:01 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:00 pm
Bullshit. It’s what humanity needs to survive and prolong whatever resources are left on the planet
Limitations on family size absolutely are, permitting from the government to have children absolutely is not and will lead immediately to eugenics.
So where do you draw the line ?
Limiting personal freedoms to go through a bunch of steps to ensure safe handling of a fire arm...
or
Survival of the species

Seems like we should prioritize what matters as opposed to argue over non sense.

Obviously humans can’t be let to fend for themselves
Because we went from 1 billion to 9 in about 120 years
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:00 pm
troyguitar wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:54 pm In order for owners to actually be held liable, though, the guns need to be registered... therefore why bother with insurance when there's effectively no liability?
I have no conceptual issue with registration either. My idea would be:

1) take class to be able to buy gun
2) pass background check
3) pass reference check
4) get approval to buy from law enforcement
5) buy insurance
6) go select your gun (no semi-automatic weapons) and present evidence of insurance
7) enter waiting period, during waiting period gun goes to ATF for registration and test firing - serial number and ballistics tests done, recorded, and made entered into database. Database results only available with a warrant.
8) notification from law enforcement that waiting period has ended and you're ready to proceed
9) pass a comprehensive safety and skills class with YOUR gun, which is still held by law enforcement
10) pick up weapon from local law enforcement for keeps

YOU as the purchaser responsible for all the associated costs
Similar requirements for hunting and sporting rifles/shotguns?

I think I could get behind this if you add that device that recognizes the owners finger/palm print and only allows the owner to fire the weapon. Or is that easily defeated? :iono:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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[user not found] wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:08 pm
wap wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:06 pm
Similar requirements for hunting and sporting rifles/shotguns?
I'd think these make sense for any firearm.
I think I could get behind this if you add that device that recognizes the owners finger/palm print and only allows the owner to fire the weapon. Or is that easily defeated? :iono:
I don't know much about the ones on firearms but in the security sector they are kinda crap.
:word:

Is it something, in your opinion, that is worth improving on to get the technology right so it reliably works as intended?
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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