we agree with this thinking. We've been long overdue for a culling
OT 17: WELCOME TO THE CORONADOME!
- ChrisoftheNorth
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I don't disagree.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
- ChrisoftheNorth
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I may. I may not. I honestly don't care if I live or die.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
- troyguitar
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PA Health department posted mask instruction on their website as well.Tarspin wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:18 am Yeah don't go buying up all the N95 masks that are needed at a hospital, but if society while in public covered their faces there would be no spreading of COVID and the medical industry would get the break that they desperately need. In the Czech Republic and Slovakia specifically (will dig up some links when I get time), the households are sewing their own up and following instructions on wearing and cleaning them etc.
Lines are fine as long as people maintain their distance. People won't unless there are visual clues though. Our post office put tape lines down on the ground and are enforcing it pretty good.
- Calvinball
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What the fuck.[user not found] wrote:Weddings, bar/bat mitzvahs, celebrations for anything and everything. They're still gathering en-masse.Calvinball wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:39 am Wait, what? ‘Splain please. I’ve not really been looking at news.
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There was a list of rabbis that had died due to COVID-19 I saw recently - https://www.app.com/story/news/health/2 ... 097253002/
That was on the 31st of March. 40% of all COVID-19 cases in Ocean County, NJ stem from Lakewood.
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- ChrisoftheNorth
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Exactly.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
- Wocka Wocka
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This x 1000.[user not found] wrote:Unfortunately we don't get to pick who stays and who goes.
Slippery slope there. It could be you, could be your parents, your friends, your family.
I personally am not ready to say goodbye to the world or the people I care about. I could far more easily say goodbye to the things I own.
The economy will recover. It always has, it always will.
Things are replaceable, people are not. I tell the people I talk to on the phone everyday that exact thing.
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- ChrisoftheNorth
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I had trouble sleeping last night (I got sunburned over the weekend and the rash is not pleasant), and was thinking about what would happen if this was essentially an economic reset button. All companies wiped out. Everyone starting fresh. What a unique time that would be.
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
Prolly more like zookeeper.
- ChrisoftheNorth
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Right? But then...what could that space be re-purposed for?[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:17 amSo much unused office space.Detroit wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:16 am I had trouble sleeping last night (I got sunburned over the weekend and the rash is not pleasant), and was thinking about what would happen if this was essentially an economic reset button. All companies wiped out. Everyone starting fresh. What a unique time that would be.
People are idiots, but there's also a lot of creativity out there. Could be major
Desertbreh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
Would be an interesting time for sure. Imagine if all debt dropped to zero. Like in fight club.Detroit wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:16 amI had trouble sleeping last night (I got sunburned over the weekend and the rash is not pleasant), and was thinking about what would happen if this was essentially an economic reset button. All companies wiped out. Everyone starting fresh. What a unique time that would be.
- Apex
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I am comfortable with and still stand by my statement.[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:02 amUnfortunately we don't get to pick who stays and who goes.
Slippery slope there. It could be you, could be your parents, your friends, your family.
I personally am not ready to say goodbye to the world or the people I care about. I could far more easily say goodbye to the things I own.
Yes, I have a very dark view on the world and death doesn’t scare me.
Y’all have probably been to more weddings than funerals where I’ve been to about 8 times as many funerals than weddings. YMMV.
- Melon
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Wasn't that the plot of 'GoldenEye' ?Detroit wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:16 amI had trouble sleeping last night (I got sunburned over the weekend and the rash is not pleasant), and was thinking about what would happen if this was essentially an economic reset button. All companies wiped out. Everyone starting fresh. What a unique time that would be.
- goIftdibrad
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I'm glad we can discuss civilly. I like you and value the friendship.Melon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 amThere's the implication that the stay-at-home order (which vary by state) are half-measures and are tanking the economy.Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:47 am
Well speak. what did I say that was so offensive? Referencing actual data from the CDC website?
As you said, and said that no one noticed by embolding them, the jury is still out on this, which is fair. History will decide, and we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we did not take a retrospective look.
But, the primary crux of this argument is Lives vs. Economy. You say tanking the economy will have a death toll, and a misery one. Possibly, but miserable people are still alive.
Social distancing is working. Don't believe me? Fair, Google "Social distancing is working" and then "Social distancing is not working"
I see it as a moral obligation, we must do whatever we can to save lives.
There are other things we can do to help the economy.
Shop local.
Order from local restaurants.
Make donations.
Listen to musical friends play live shows.
There are more ways to help if you look around.
In our conversation I only recall one statistic you quoted from the CDC's website, which is to number of flu fatalities.
The argument that this is "Just as bad as the flu" in regarding the death toll, is completely asinine.
I believe you gave a number in the vicinity of 80,000. This is also inaccurate.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/pr ... imates.htm
The CDC states for the 2019-2020 flu season they project deaths in the rate of 24,000-60,000
Now, let's talk COVID-19 projections.
I'll start with the necessary disclaimer, these seem to vary wildly and this article is from the NY Times, different publications may choose different numbers.
The article is also nearly a month old, most newer news articles are behind pay walls.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/us/c ... imate.html
"Between 160 million and 214 million people in the United States could be infected over the course of the epidemic, according to a projection that encompasses the range of the four scenarios. That could last months or even over a year, with infections concentrated in shorter periods, staggered across time in different communities, experts said. As many as 200,000 to 1.7 million people could die."
Slightly more recent article from March 30th.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump ... ojections/
"In an appearance on CNN’s “State of the Union” on March 29, Fauci said that even with mitigation efforts that have been put into effect, 100,000 to 200,000 Americans could die from the disease."
Here is the worldwide number:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... eath-toll/
To liken a virus that has a higher R value, and is still being understood, to a seasonal virus, that is well understood is trying to extrapolate from incomplete data.
All we can look at are projections, and it doesn't look good.
On the note about "being preached to"
Everyone is handling this different, emotionally and physically. Have a little compassion and understanding.
Some people have gotten too much, from both sides, so I have unfollowed or unfriended them. There are a lot of 'Pathogen Patriots' to 'Do-Nothing Dale' to the stupid ass "post the 9th picture in your phone" people. You're going to see my asshole Darla, keep it up. But hey, we're all bored as fuck.
Circling back around:
To sit there and say it's as bad as the flu, and then mention freezer trucks storing dead bodies in NYC. I was a bit baffled by the juxtaposition.
I don't recall seeing temporary morgues during flu season. I don't recall seeing GM stop producing cars to start producing medical equipment during a flu season.
I don't recall seeing a nation go from normal life to a completely new normal within the span of 10 days.
Now, this is the part where we agree.
Should we be concerned about what the FED is doing? Absolutely, we need to pay attention.
Do we owe it to ourselves to really do a thorough review of how this was handled? Oh yeah we do.
Will we get to a point where things return to "normal" and we allow a certain amount of risk? Probably. I know I mentioned a moral obligation to save lives, and hopefully by this point, we can change behaviors and allow for thorough testing to be able to protect those vulnerable while developing a herd immunity.
It's not "just a flu"
Your sarcastic "its just the flu" statement is annoying me, sorry it just is. You quoted a lot of fantastical numbers there from articles that do a poor job citing their sources on said numbers. Looking at the actual curves, we are looking at ~80k deaths from the covid. Every year we see 40-60k from the flu, numbers that are notoriously unreliable. I know 20k difference is a big number, but on population scales its a blip, and we are still in the same order of magnitude. And I realize that all those cases at once could overwhelm the system and cause more deaths. Even the CDC says covid is "a flu like virus". Viral stuff we humans catch that make us sick as fuck is a whole class of diseases other than actual influenza. Comparing it to the flu is similar to the kleenex vs tissue paper naming convention. Flu is the common use brand name for respiratory viral infections.
My argument isnt lives vs the economy, its LIVES LOST due to covid vs LIVES LOST due to the economy. Bad economies kill people, plain and simple. My point is that i hope the powers that be are doing their best to balance this and not using a crisis to further personal agendas.
I am over being preached to about this from every angle. I can add, quite well thanks to 3 semesters of calculus. As you so aptly put, people are going to people. Let them and stop judging so hard is my only wish at this time.
brain go brrrrrr
- Melon
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It scares the shit out of me.Apex wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:29 amI am comfortable with and still stand by my statement.[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:02 am
Unfortunately we don't get to pick who stays and who goes.
Slippery slope there. It could be you, could be your parents, your friends, your family.
I personally am not ready to say goodbye to the world or the people I care about. I could far more easily say goodbye to the things I own.
Yes, I have a very dark view on the world and death doesn’t scare me.
Y’all have probably been to more weddings than funerals where I’ve been to about 8 times as many funerals than weddings. YMMV.
I kinda like being alive, want some more of it for a while.
- Johnny_P
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Indoor bike park
My friends and I have been musing about this for a year or so. No financial way to make it work. Unless everything tanks
- Irish
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The metering and spacing for shopping should have been put in place weeks ago.
I have not been in a store since 3/20/20 when I picked up hand sanitizer that was set aside for me at my local Pharmacy.
I do curbside pick up and delivery for groceries. I do not expect to go into a store unless it it to pick up PPE or hand sanitizer.
I sanitize everything that comes into the house, especially food stuffs.
I open all mail with gloves and leave the contents out in the garage for at least 24 hours.
Even with those actions and precautions in place (and others), I do need to go into my office 1-3 times per week. This should be relatively risk free except that I suspect that my "neighbor" (a hair stylist, one door down on the same floor in my little office building) is still seeing clients on the sly.
Now, I understand that she likely needs the money and that some of her clients just want to feel "normal"...... but I am debating on whether to just confront her or report her as a non essential business.
I don't want to be that guy, but they are putting me, and any of my staff that has to come in, at risk.
I have not been in a store since 3/20/20 when I picked up hand sanitizer that was set aside for me at my local Pharmacy.
I do curbside pick up and delivery for groceries. I do not expect to go into a store unless it it to pick up PPE or hand sanitizer.
I sanitize everything that comes into the house, especially food stuffs.
I open all mail with gloves and leave the contents out in the garage for at least 24 hours.
Even with those actions and precautions in place (and others), I do need to go into my office 1-3 times per week. This should be relatively risk free except that I suspect that my "neighbor" (a hair stylist, one door down on the same floor in my little office building) is still seeing clients on the sly.
Now, I understand that she likely needs the money and that some of her clients just want to feel "normal"...... but I am debating on whether to just confront her or report her as a non essential business.
I don't want to be that guy, but they are putting me, and any of my staff that has to come in, at risk.
Last edited by Irish on Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Johnny_P
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The thing I keep taking away, from all the back and forth arguments, is the death rate is predicated on people receiving good quality ICU care. If you're out of ICUs, more people die. You need to keep the number of ICU patients under control, and that's what the social distance measures are trying to accomplish. Because nobody really knows what the death rate would be if only a few patients received quality care. That's why you hear 200k to 2MM range. Nobody can guess the number because we haven't hit the inflection point yet.Big Brain Bradley wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:32 amI'm glad we can discuss civilly. I like you and value the friendship.Melon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 am
There's the implication that the stay-at-home order (which vary by state) are half-measures and are tanking the economy.
As you said, and said that no one noticed by embolding them, the jury is still out on this, which is fair. History will decide, and we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we did not take a retrospective look.
But, the primary crux of this argument is Lives vs. Economy. You say tanking the economy will have a death toll, and a misery one. Possibly, but miserable people are still alive.
Social distancing is working. Don't believe me? Fair, Google "Social distancing is working" and then "Social distancing is not working"
I see it as a moral obligation, we must do whatever we can to save lives.
There are other things we can do to help the economy.
Shop local.
Order from local restaurants.
Make donations.
Listen to musical friends play live shows.
There are more ways to help if you look around.
In our conversation I only recall one statistic you quoted from the CDC's website, which is to number of flu fatalities.
The argument that this is "Just as bad as the flu" in regarding the death toll, is completely asinine.
I believe you gave a number in the vicinity of 80,000. This is also inaccurate.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/pr ... imates.htm
The CDC states for the 2019-2020 flu season they project deaths in the rate of 24,000-60,000
Now, let's talk COVID-19 projections.
I'll start with the necessary disclaimer, these seem to vary wildly and this article is from the NY Times, different publications may choose different numbers.
The article is also nearly a month old, most newer news articles are behind pay walls.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/us/c ... imate.html
"Between 160 million and 214 million people in the United States could be infected over the course of the epidemic, according to a projection that encompasses the range of the four scenarios. That could last months or even over a year, with infections concentrated in shorter periods, staggered across time in different communities, experts said. As many as 200,000 to 1.7 million people could die."
Slightly more recent article from March 30th.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump ... ojections/
"In an appearance on CNN’s “State of the Union” on March 29, Fauci said that even with mitigation efforts that have been put into effect, 100,000 to 200,000 Americans could die from the disease."
Here is the worldwide number:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... eath-toll/
To liken a virus that has a higher R value, and is still being understood, to a seasonal virus, that is well understood is trying to extrapolate from incomplete data.
All we can look at are projections, and it doesn't look good.
On the note about "being preached to"
Everyone is handling this different, emotionally and physically. Have a little compassion and understanding.
Some people have gotten too much, from both sides, so I have unfollowed or unfriended them. There are a lot of 'Pathogen Patriots' to 'Do-Nothing Dale' to the stupid ass "post the 9th picture in your phone" people. You're going to see my asshole Darla, keep it up. But hey, we're all bored as fuck.
Circling back around:
To sit there and say it's as bad as the flu, and then mention freezer trucks storing dead bodies in NYC. I was a bit baffled by the juxtaposition.
I don't recall seeing temporary morgues during flu season. I don't recall seeing GM stop producing cars to start producing medical equipment during a flu season.
I don't recall seeing a nation go from normal life to a completely new normal within the span of 10 days.
Now, this is the part where we agree.
Should we be concerned about what the FED is doing? Absolutely, we need to pay attention.
Do we owe it to ourselves to really do a thorough review of how this was handled? Oh yeah we do.
Will we get to a point where things return to "normal" and we allow a certain amount of risk? Probably. I know I mentioned a moral obligation to save lives, and hopefully by this point, we can change behaviors and allow for thorough testing to be able to protect those vulnerable while developing a herd immunity.
It's not "just a flu"
Your sarcastic "its just the flu" statement is annoying me, sorry it just is. You quoted a lot of fantastical numbers there from articles that do a poor job citing their sources on said numbers. Looking at the actual curves, we are looking at ~80k deaths from the covid. Every year we see 40-60k from the flu, numbers that are notoriously unreliable. I know 20k difference is a big number, but on population scales its a blip, and we are still in the same order of magnitude. And I realize that all those cases at once could overwhelm the system and cause more deaths. Even the CDC says covid is "a flu like virus". Viral stuff we humans catch that make us sick as fuck is a whole class of diseases other than actual influenza. Comparing it to the flu is similar to the kleenex vs tissue paper naming convention. Flu is the common use brand name for respiratory viral infections.
My argument isnt lives vs the economy, its LIVES LOST due to covid vs LIVES LOST due to the economy. Bad economies kill people, plain and simple. My point is that i hope the powers that be are doing their best to balance this and not using a crisis to further personal agendas.
I am over being preached to about this from every angle. I can add, quite well thanks to 3 semesters of calculus. As you so aptly put, people are going to people. Let them and stop judging so hard is my only wish at this time.
I think the powers that be are simply trying to save as many lives as they can through measures that most people can take.
But maybe it's more than that. If you let all the olds die, after this mess is over your pharmaceutical and health care industries shrink because there are fewer people needing care and medicine (olds require far more than young people in this arena in general), places like Irish's ass wiping business go under, nursing homes are not needed for a few years, hospitals see fewer patients and surgeries so they too shrink, etc. Its gotta be a .gov conspiracy.
- Apex
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Places like Detroit have gorgeous architecture that is just crumbling further into disarray because people want “new” I guess.[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:39 amLots of things.
There's so much waste behind utilizing all that office space, anyway. All the commuting, all the parking, all the meetings where nothing gets done.
More people need to WFH if possible.
Repurpose the office space into better things. Indoor grow facilities, indoor bike parks, indoor recreational whatever. Hell, cheap housing.
There is no reason why we need to keep building more buildings. Repurpose what we already have.
- troyguitar
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Restoring old shit properly is and then maintaining it is furtherApex wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:44 amPlaces like Detroit have gorgeous architecture that is just crumbling further into disarray because people want “new” I guess.[user not found] wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:39 am
Lots of things.
There's so much waste behind utilizing all that office space, anyway. All the commuting, all the parking, all the meetings where nothing gets done.
More people need to WFH if possible.
Repurpose the office space into better things. Indoor grow facilities, indoor bike parks, indoor recreational whatever. Hell, cheap housing.
There is no reason why we need to keep building more buildings. Repurpose what we already have.
...and there are no tax benefits to doing so AFAIK, vs slapping together a cheapass building on basically free land and getting yuuge tax breaks for "creating jobs"