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troyguitar wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 4:20 pm This is how you pass interviews, right?

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KYGTIGuy
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Detroit wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 3:06 pm
[user not found] wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:56 pm

First, hire not higher, I'm an ass.

Second, I suspect this is more of a millennial approach, we will see if it becomes more common or not. I am hopeful.
It absolutely is...but even in B-school management classes I was taught a similar methodology...which makes sense to me. I am motivated by such management.

I'm actually motivated to make it to leader status to be part of the change.
Fun fact about your current employer. Mark Stewart was in my sisters wedding. They are good friends.
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Detroit wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 9:38 am
[user not found] wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 9:45 pm

AKA Fake it until you make it.
It's a catch 22 IMO.

I've quickly become viewed as an "expert" in whatever task or subject I'm working on at work. I tend to be the go-to for many things because people know I know what I'm doing and I'll get whatever done on time.

The problem with that is, it makes you a well-known doer, but not a leader. It's a balance you have to strike to not get stuck in a position/level because you're too valuable to promote. This happened to me at my last company, I could see it happening to me again.
This happened to me at Kellogg's. I was a in the trenches QA guy whose job it was to insure cleanliness and food safety. This necessitated me being a thorn in the side of the production supervisors at times.....so I had to learn how to walk the gray lines in order to get them to instruct the union work force to fix/clean the issues that I discovered.

One of these supervisors was an old Battleaxe of a woman who eventually got promoted into the Quality Manager position under whom I was a direct report.

Her and I got along famously before and after the promotion, but when it came time for my review, and she asked me where I saw myself in 5 years. I said that I would like to be the Sanitation Supervisor (which was a natural progression for the work I was already doing). She stated that she just didn't see that because I was so non confrontational. I replied that in my role as a QA Tech, being non confrontational was the best way to bridge the gap between the salaried managers and the hourly union workers. Getting along with everyone and not getting in peoples faces, was the most effective way to get the job done.

She probably didn't mean to do it, but the message she sent me was that I was un-promotable. Six months later, I bought my own gotdamn supervisors position, because fuck her.
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Irish wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 10:05 pm
Detroit wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 9:38 am
It's a catch 22 IMO.

I've quickly become viewed as an "expert" in whatever task or subject I'm working on at work. I tend to be the go-to for many things because people know I know what I'm doing and I'll get whatever done on time.

The problem with that is, it makes you a well-known doer, but not a leader. It's a balance you have to strike to not get stuck in a position/level because you're too valuable to promote. This happened to me at my last company, I could see it happening to me again.
This happened to me at Kellogg's. I was a in the trenches QA guy whose job it was to insure cleanliness and food safety. This necessitated me being a thorn in the side of the production supervisors at times.....so I had to learn how to walk the gray lines in order to get them to instruct the union work force to fix/clean the issues that I discovered.

One of these supervisors was an old Battleaxe of a woman who eventually got promoted into the Quality Manager position under whom I was a direct report.

Her and I got along famously before and after the promotion, but when it came time for my review, and she asked me where I saw myself in 5 years. I said that I would like to be the Sanitation Supervisor (which was a natural progression for the work I was already doing). She stated that she just didn't see that because I was so non confrontational. I replied that in my role as a QA Tech, being non confrontational was the best way to bridge the gap between the salaried managers and the hourly union workers. Getting along with everyone and not getting in peoples faces, was the most effective way to get the job done.

She probably didn't mean to do it, but the message she sent me was that I was un-promotable. Six months later, I bought my own gotdamn supervisors position, because fuck her.
:fuckyeah:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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KYGTIGuy wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 9:21 pm
Detroit wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 3:06 pm
It absolutely is...but even in B-school management classes I was taught a similar methodology...which makes sense to me. I am motivated by such management.

I'm actually motivated to make it to leader status to be part of the change.
Fun fact about your current employer. Mark Stewart was in my sisters wedding. They are good friends.
:ohdang:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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[user not found] wrote:
Detroit wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:10 pm Very true!

The problem is, doers are generally very undervalued monetarily. Being a doer is fine, but you'll never make big bucks despite doing most if not all of the work. It's a pretty :bs: system TBH.
As a leader... I higher doers who are the best at what they do. I have 5 people like that now who are all amazing at what they do, ok at what someone else on the team does, and working on everything else.

My job is twofold:
Be very good at everything but let the experts be experts and get everyone out of their way.
Bring these folks together for a common goal.

No one can be great at everything a team needs to do, but they need to be very good at it all.

I've had several bosses that literally had no clue what I did but they were great because they stayed out of my way, kept others out of my way, and got me money. The higher up the chain you get the less hard skills matter. I used to be GREAT at a couple security disciplines, that's fading simply because I do less of it hands on.
The flip side of this is that your boss cant then be a resource or SME. My manager is fantastic but very non technical. I literally have nobody to go to if I run into a code or architecture challenge. Its great for learning and figuring out myself but horribly inefficient in doing so (i.e. from a technical mentoring perspective), i waste maybe 5 hours trying to fix a problem that someone senior may be able to show and fix.

More common in smaller companies, i admit.
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Well my review went well.

i bet my raise wont :doe:
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Desertbreh wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:09 pm
troyguitar wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:03 pm Why should a doer necessarily be any good at leading? They're entirely different skills. I can do tons of shit well. I can't lead a team South from the North pole.
Generally the ability to DO engenders respect from those who.....can do less? Leading by example? I obviously do not get it. If you are good at schmoozing, delegating, organizing, and just generally being a corporate shill but you can't actually create anything or accomplish anything related to the production of automobiles, you aren't my leader.
very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
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dubshow wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 am
Desertbreh wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Generally the ability to DO engenders respect from those who.....can do less? Leading by example? I obviously do not get it. If you are good at schmoozing, delegating, organizing, and just generally being a corporate shill but you can't actually create anything or accomplish anything related to the production of automobiles, you aren't my leader.
very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
Desert employs Desert, so he skips all that :bs:
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dubshow wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 am
Desertbreh wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Generally the ability to DO engenders respect from those who.....can do less? Leading by example? I obviously do not get it. If you are good at schmoozing, delegating, organizing, and just generally being a corporate shill but you can't actually create anything or accomplish anything related to the production of automobiles, you aren't my leader.
very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
Yea, really gotta play the game.

The biggest challenge working for a large corp is navigating the politics and knowing who to leverage and when. Especially with what I work on, it's mostly story telling and convincing people that my/our team's point of view is the right one and the company needs to follow our direction. Being good at getting people on your side and telling a convincing story seems to be what makes leaders here. Which might not be "wrong" per se, but doesn't necessarily reward the smartest or hardest working with upward opportunity.

My biggest challenge is having the confidence in myself to speak up in a discussion. When asked my opinion, I state it clearly and usually get a lot of agreement, but in a room of people discussing, I'll rarely pipe up unless I think something is really wrong. This will likely be my downfall in my current position.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Apex wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:05 am
dubshow wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 am

very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
Desert employs Desert, so he skips all that :bs:
Right. The dynamics between a large organization and a small one are VERY different.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:09 am
dubshow wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 am

very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
Yea, really gotta play the game.

The biggest challenge working for a large corp is navigating the politics and knowing who to leverage and when. Especially with what I work on, it's mostly story telling and convincing people that my/our team's point of view is the right one and the company needs to follow our direction. Being good at getting people on your side and telling a convincing story seems to be what makes leaders here. Which might not be "wrong" per se, but doesn't necessarily reward the smartest or hardest working with upward opportunity.

My biggest challenge is having the confidence in myself to speak up in a discussion. When asked my opinion, I state it clearly and usually get a lot of agreement, but in a room of people discussing, I'll rarely pipe up unless I think something is really wrong. This will likely be my downfall in my current position.
I am starting to build up this confidence, actually much more so now that my boss left. It usually goes over well, I think.
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Apex wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:18 am
Detroit wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:09 am
Yea, really gotta play the game.

The biggest challenge working for a large corp is navigating the politics and knowing who to leverage and when. Especially with what I work on, it's mostly story telling and convincing people that my/our team's point of view is the right one and the company needs to follow our direction. Being good at getting people on your side and telling a convincing story seems to be what makes leaders here. Which might not be "wrong" per se, but doesn't necessarily reward the smartest or hardest working with upward opportunity.

My biggest challenge is having the confidence in myself to speak up in a discussion. When asked my opinion, I state it clearly and usually get a lot of agreement, but in a room of people discussing, I'll rarely pipe up unless I think something is really wrong. This will likely be my downfall in my current position.
I am starting to build up this confidence, actually much more so now that my boss left. It usually goes over well, I think.
It absolutely does. At the very least, it gets people recognizing you.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 am
Apex wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:18 am

I am starting to build up this confidence, actually much more so now that my boss left. It usually goes over well, I think.
It absolutely does. At the very least, it gets people recognizing you.
:dat:
Time for people to recognize I know wtf I'm talking about. :lol:
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Apex wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:22 am
Detroit wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 am
It absolutely does. At the very least, it gets people recognizing you.
:dat:
Time for people to recognize I know wtf I'm talking about. :lol:
:fuckyeah: Tell 'em!
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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dubshow wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 am
Desertbreh wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Generally the ability to DO engenders respect from those who.....can do less? Leading by example? I obviously do not get it. If you are good at schmoozing, delegating, organizing, and just generally being a corporate shill but you can't actually create anything or accomplish anything related to the production of automobiles, you aren't my leader.
very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
Fortunately that's just me looking in the mirror for a long time now. That said, as an employee I have never intentionally "spoke my mind" just to assert myself when it would be counterproductive to my continued employment.

How is respecting people who can actually make product a foolish thing? IIRC, Waxer doesn't ask his underlings to do anything he wouldn't, or cannot do himself. You can't be a Brogramming chieftain if you cannot BROGRAM. I would warrant Acid's boss knows how to build nice billet thingies. Does your boss have no engineering skills? I mean, come on guys. At huge auto corporations, yes, managers manage. But I would wage that many of us here have bosses who can do their underling's job better faster, and stronger.
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Apex wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:22 am
Detroit wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 am
It absolutely does. At the very least, it gets people recognizing you.
:dat:
Time for people to recognize I know wtf I'm talking about. :lol:
yeah! Science Bitch!
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Desertbreh wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 3:11 pm
dubshow wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 am

very interesting take. Now say that to the entire leadership rank that employs you.

That's the thinking that gets you labelled as "not team player" and will doom you.
Fortunately that's just me looking in the mirror for a long time now. That said, as an employee I have never intentionally "spoke my mind" just to assert myself when it would be counterproductive to my continued employment.

How is respecting people who can actually make product a foolish thing? IIRC, Waxer doesn't ask his underlings to do anything he wouldn't, or cannot do himself. You can't be a Brogramming chieftain if you cannot BROGRAM. I would warrant Acid's boss knows how to build nice billet thingies. Does your boss have no engineering skills? I mean, come on guys. At huge auto corporations, yes, managers manage. But I would wage that many of us here have bosses who can do their underling's job better faster, and stronger.
This is certainly true in my case, my boss is a fantastic sales guy and also really understands the products well. I do enjoy that I can speak up in our meetings though and I have a different background in perspective that is pretty valued as our company is trying to get into a new area that they don’t really understand all that well. I am also pretty sure that I could be a manager of some kind here in like two years if I want to be. But I don’t really want to.

I really preferred working out in the field by myself.
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Speaking of corporate, my company is in the middle of a deal to take a public company private as we are acquiring them. Really interesting, it is tripling the size of our company as far as employees. I guess it will probably be a good thing for future opportunity. I miss the non-corporate life where I was more than just a cog in the wheel though.
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Tiny update:
Scheduling some meet and greets with the sales manager and possibly the sales officer for one of the upcoming postings in NY at an industry conference next week. :popcorn:
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Apex wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm Tiny update:
Scheduling some meet and greets with the sales manager and possibly the sales officer for one of the upcoming postings in NY at an industry conference next week. :popcorn:
:ohmy: :popcorn:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Apex wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm Tiny update:
Scheduling some meet and greets with the sales manager and possibly the sales officer for one of the upcoming postings in NY at an industry conference next week. :popcorn:
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:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Im updating my resume :doomed:
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Apex wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm Tiny update:
Scheduling some meet and greets with the sales manager and possibly the sales officer for one of the upcoming postings in NY at an industry conference next week. :popcorn:
In4updates
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:25 pm
Apex wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm Tiny update:
Scheduling some meet and greets with the sales manager and possibly the sales officer for one of the upcoming postings in NY at an industry conference next week. :popcorn:
In4updates
I have a luncheon meeting today with my team, our new boss and boss's boss. Will provide updates later today since that meeting does impact what I end up doing/pursuing.
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