Home heating

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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:40 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:26 am
I'm a simple-minded business person...I simplify engineering things in my mind.
you are extremely close. In your case the steam and condensate (fancy term for water) form slugs, those slugs hit the elbows and fittings in the pipes, and thats whats causing your banging. its literally slugs of water hitting the changes in direction of you pipe at high speed.
Yep, that's about what the book said IIRC.

:derp: me has to reinterpret it into something my brain can handle. It's hard being a :fullretard: that doesn't want to be.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:11 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:40 am

you are extremely close. In your case the steam and condensate (fancy term for water) form slugs, those slugs hit the elbows and fittings in the pipes, and thats whats causing your banging. its literally slugs of water hitting the changes in direction of you pipe at high speed.
Yep, that's about what the book said IIRC.

:derp: me has to reinterpret it into something my brain can handle. It's hard being a :fullretard: that doesn't want to be.
You are doing better than 98% of the other :derps: :like:

But how dare you be so privileged. You should fix people's heaters for free now with your newfound knowledge of steam heating. :mahtroy:
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[user not found] wrote:
Calvinball wrote: I do too but with my smoke issues I hesitate to put something in that’ll push the fire further from the back wall.


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Yeah, it’s a design issue. My box is too yuge.


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Big Brain Bradley wrote:
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:11 am Yep, that's about what the book said IIRC.

:derp: me has to reinterpret it into something my brain can handle. It's hard being a :fullretard: that doesn't want to be.
You are doing better than 98% of the other :derps: :like:

But how dare you be so privileged. You should fix people's heaters for free now with your newfound knowledge of steam heating. :mahtroy:
:lolol: :lolgasm:


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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:13 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:11 am
Yep, that's about what the book said IIRC.

:derp: me has to reinterpret it into something my brain can handle. It's hard being a :fullretard: that doesn't want to be.
You are doing better than 98% of the other :derps: :like:

But how dare you be so privileged. You should fix people's heaters for free now with your newfound knowledge of steam heating. :mahtroy:
:lolgasm:

Though...I've long said that if I won the lottery or somehow came into enough money where I didn't need to make any more, I'd love to help fix poor people's cars and do odd jobs around the house for near free. Hire disadvantaged people that need job experience to help, and charge customers significantly subsidized (by me) rates or issue "loans" with extremely reasonable terms to help them get back on their feet while not being a complete handout.

I'm happiest working with my hands. If I didn't have to make money, it's what I'd do.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:19 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:13 am

You are doing better than 98% of the other :derps: :like:

But how dare you be so privileged. You should fix people's heaters for free now with your newfound knowledge of steam heating. :mahtroy:
:lolgasm:

Though...I've long said that if I won the lottery or somehow came into enough money where I didn't need to make any more, I'd love to help fix poor people's cars and do odd jobs around the house for near free. Hire disadvantaged people that need job experience to help, and charge customers significantly subsidized (by me) rates or issue "loans" with extremely reasonable terms to help them get back on their feet while not being a complete handout.

I'm happiest working with my hands. If I didn't have to make money, it's what I'd do.
admirable.

If I won the lottery I'd go be a lobbyist for gen 4 nuclear power. And play with race cars and shit, but do what I could to further the casue for clean, safe, relaible energy.
brain go brrrrrr
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:21 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:19 am
:lolgasm:

Though...I've long said that if I won the lottery or somehow came into enough money where I didn't need to make any more, I'd love to help fix poor people's cars and do odd jobs around the house for near free. Hire disadvantaged people that need job experience to help, and charge customers significantly subsidized (by me) rates or issue "loans" with extremely reasonable terms to help them get back on their feet while not being a complete handout.

I'm happiest working with my hands. If I didn't have to make money, it's what I'd do.
admirable.

If I won the lottery I'd go be a lobbyist for gen 4 nuclear power. And play with race cars and shit, but do what I could to further the casue for clean, safe, relaible energy.
Oh, I'd have racecars and shit too, but I'd like to have something to do day-to-day.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:33 am
wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm

Oh. So do you have regulating valves on the baseboards. I have a couple of rooms with old baseboards and they don't have any means of regulating them.
Yea, but if valves are there, it should be fine to regulate.

Of course. But I've never seen those old school heavy iron baseboards with regulating valves, doe. Have you?
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Calvinball wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:50 am
wap wrote:
Oh. So do you have regulating valves on the baseboards. I have a couple of rooms with old baseboards and they don't have any means of regulating them.
I’m guessing not after I saw you have the big standing rads. I haven’t taken off any covers to look yet.


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:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 am
wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:59 pm

Sure. Lay it on us.

And inb4faxsaysyou'rewrong
So, before I go into it, it's important to understand steam heating systems. Steam heat progressed through the 1800's to the 1920's. In the early days, boilers blew up (yes actually exploded), killing many people and building a reputation of being unsafe. The name of the game became reducing pressure to make boilers safer. I won't get into the different types of systems, but in my case, I have the most "advanced" steam heating system that was developed in the mid 20's. Shortly after, forced air became the norm because steam heating systems were so damned expensive. You had to have a dedicated engineer plot out the system in a new house (which was :waxer: ) and all the parts (pipes, radiators, valves, traps, etc) were expensive to buy and install. None of that was an issue with forced air, so steam heating systems like mine came and went fast. The result is that nobody knows how to work on my system, so I taught myself. I'll focus on our system from here on out...

Water hammer occurs when water gets into the steam lines, or steam gets into the water lines. Effectively, the steam crashes into the water, and that collision is heard in the pipes as a bang. There's many ways this can happen.

At first glance, we have a 2-pipe steam system. Radiators with a supply pipe coming up to the top, and a return line coming out the opposite side on the bottom with a steam trap. The steam trap separates water from steam...and as such is a critical part of water hammer. When I started researching my system, everything I read said to replace ALL of the steam traps to prevent water hammer. Steam traps tend to fail open (so as not to build up pressure), and when that happens, steam gets into the water return lines and before you know it, there's an army of elves tapping on your pipes with hammers (that's what it sounds like).

So I replaced all the steam traps. Proud of myself, I ran the boiler and it was fine. No water hammer for the first few days. Then one night, the elves showed up.

I read deeper and inspected my system closer. To combat pressure, there should be air vents at the end of the steam mains. Mine didn't have any. Too much pressure means steam will push it's way anywhere...including water pipes. I assumed that someone at some point removed the steam main vents because they were leaking, and plugged the holes...so I set out to add them back. When examining the boiler, I saw an odd cluster of pipes labeled as a "differential loop" with a vent on top. I hadn't read a thing about this, so I did some homework. This is when things got crazy.

The differential loop is a mechanical series of pipes that controls the water level through pressure. Too much pressure, the water level rises, and it pukes it out into the return line to the boiler. On top of this is a vent. When digging further, systems with a differential loop were the last iteration of steam heat. They run on less than 1 PSI or pressure ( :wtf: ) and rely on only one main vent to let all the air out of the system...the one on top of the loop. The pressure is so low, and the vents are designed in such a way that they continue letting air out after the boiler is shut off, which creates a slight vacuum. Then, when the boiler turns on, the steam rushes through the pipes because it always travels to low pressure first. This means the house heats faster, and is completely silent. In theory...

I looked up what vent was on my loop, and someone...not knowing what the system was...put a vent on that was about half the venting capacity of what it should be. They even left the original dead vent on the floor, which I confirmed has much higher venting capacity. The small vent was letting the system build up too much pressure, and as a result steam was finding it's way to places it shouldn't, and causing hammer. The crazy thing was, I could let water out of the system to stop hammer for a few days. I couldn't understand why until I realized that dropping the water level also dropped the pressure level. But as pressure slowly built up due to insufficient venting, the hammer would return in a few days.

I bought the proper vent, and installed it in place of the small one. It was $80, and we've been water hammer free ever since. We had three different "experts" come out over the years, and just take a look at the boiler and say "it's old, needs to be replaced. That's causing the hammer". Yes, the boiler is old, but that's not the culprit of the water hammer. Most had no idea what they were looking at, so they just went to the obvious.

I've become fascinated with steam heating ever since I went through this journey. If I ever lose my job, I legit will get certified in HVAC and specialize in repairing steam heat systems. There's a bunch in my area, and nobody I could find knows much about them.
Most :impressive: ! :bravo:
And :mindblown: that you were able to find the correct vent. Why are they even still made, or is it a generic, off-the-shelf part with other applictions?
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:21 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 am


Water hammer occurs when water gets into the steam lines, or steam gets into the water lines. Effectively, the steam crashes into the water, and that collision is heard in the pipes as a bang. There's many ways this can happen.


I've become fascinated with steam heating ever since I went through this journey. If I ever lose my job, I legit will get certified in HVAC and specialize in repairing steam heat systems. There's a bunch in my area, and nobody I could find knows much about them.
RE: hammer Ehhhhh that's not technically whats going on to make your noise, but it is a functional description of WHY it's happening.
Image

But hell to the yea on your steam heating journey. Interesting read very 5/7. Low pressure and the vacuum loop makes total sense; two phase vapors are amaze at transmitting thermal energy quickly. (look at heat pipes n an ECU)
Aaaaaand there it is. :rolleyes:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:23 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:21 am

RE: hammer Ehhhhh that's not technically whats going on to make your noise, but it is a functional description of WHY it's happening.
Image

But hell to the yea on your steam heating journey. Interesting read very 5/7. Low pressure and the vacuum loop makes total sense; two phase vapors are amaze at transmitting thermal energy quickly. (look at heat pipes n an ECU)
Aaaaaand there it is. :rolleyes:
did it for you :zing:
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wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:23 am

Aaaaaand there it is. :rolleyes:
:wap: just skeerd of my n00klear :fax:
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:33 am
wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:23 am

Aaaaaand there it is. :rolleyes:
did it for you :zing:
:wub:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am
wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:23 am

Aaaaaand there it is. :rolleyes:
:wap: just skeerd of my n00klear :fax:
:yeahok:
You should be skeerd of locating a nuke plant in the pathway of pyroclastic flow, once you read up on what it is.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote:
Calvinball wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:50 am I’m guessing not after I saw you have the big standing rads. I haven’t taken off any covers to look yet.


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Initial results are negative.


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Calvinball wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:13 pm
wap wrote:
In4resultsofcoverremoval
Initial results are negative.


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:(
My baseboards don't seem to have a valve either.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:00 pm
[user not found] wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:35 pm Usually the risk is blowing circuits out. Nfg. Do it till you get yelled at.
Our office is super cold. A chick I work with had a space heater...but a floor one with a blower. When the weather got cold, they sent out a message saying it's against company policy to have ANY additional heaters and they must be removed for safety concerns.

The next day, security walked by and took it. She had to go pick it up at the front desk, but was told "disciplinary action" might be taken if she brings it back.

:wtf:
Put on some clothes. :)

In all seriousness doe in the Mrs. Troy situ they would have to make some accomodation for Reynaud's.
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Desertbreh wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:32 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:00 pm
Our office is super cold. A chick I work with had a space heater...but a floor one with a blower. When the weather got cold, they sent out a message saying it's against company policy to have ANY additional heaters and they must be removed for safety concerns.

The next day, security walked by and took it. She had to go pick it up at the front desk, but was told "disciplinary action" might be taken if she brings it back.

:wtf:
Put on some clothes. :)

In all seriousness doe in the Mrs. Troy situ they would have to make some accomodation for Reynaud's.
You would think so.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:08 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 am
So, before I go into it, it's important to understand steam heating systems. Steam heat progressed through the 1800's to the 1920's. In the early days, boilers blew up (yes actually exploded), killing many people and building a reputation of being unsafe. The name of the game became reducing pressure to make boilers safer. I won't get into the different types of systems, but in my case, I have the most "advanced" steam heating system that was developed in the mid 20's. Shortly after, forced air became the norm because steam heating systems were so damned expensive. You had to have a dedicated engineer plot out the system in a new house (which was :waxer: ) and all the parts (pipes, radiators, valves, traps, etc) were expensive to buy and install. None of that was an issue with forced air, so steam heating systems like mine came and went fast. The result is that nobody knows how to work on my system, so I taught myself. I'll focus on our system from here on out...

Water hammer occurs when water gets into the steam lines, or steam gets into the water lines. Effectively, the steam crashes into the water, and that collision is heard in the pipes as a bang. There's many ways this can happen.

At first glance, we have a 2-pipe steam system. Radiators with a supply pipe coming up to the top, and a return line coming out the opposite side on the bottom with a steam trap. The steam trap separates water from steam...and as such is a critical part of water hammer. When I started researching my system, everything I read said to replace ALL of the steam traps to prevent water hammer. Steam traps tend to fail open (so as not to build up pressure), and when that happens, steam gets into the water return lines and before you know it, there's an army of elves tapping on your pipes with hammers (that's what it sounds like).

So I replaced all the steam traps. Proud of myself, I ran the boiler and it was fine. No water hammer for the first few days. Then one night, the elves showed up.

I read deeper and inspected my system closer. To combat pressure, there should be air vents at the end of the steam mains. Mine didn't have any. Too much pressure means steam will push it's way anywhere...including water pipes. I assumed that someone at some point removed the steam main vents because they were leaking, and plugged the holes...so I set out to add them back. When examining the boiler, I saw an odd cluster of pipes labeled as a "differential loop" with a vent on top. I hadn't read a thing about this, so I did some homework. This is when things got crazy.

The differential loop is a mechanical series of pipes that controls the water level through pressure. Too much pressure, the water level rises, and it pukes it out into the return line to the boiler. On top of this is a vent. When digging further, systems with a differential loop were the last iteration of steam heat. They run on less than 1 PSI or pressure ( :wtf: ) and rely on only one main vent to let all the air out of the system...the one on top of the loop. The pressure is so low, and the vents are designed in such a way that they continue letting air out after the boiler is shut off, which creates a slight vacuum. Then, when the boiler turns on, the steam rushes through the pipes because it always travels to low pressure first. This means the house heats faster, and is completely silent. In theory...

I looked up what vent was on my loop, and someone...not knowing what the system was...put a vent on that was about half the venting capacity of what it should be. They even left the original dead vent on the floor, which I confirmed has much higher venting capacity. The small vent was letting the system build up too much pressure, and as a result steam was finding it's way to places it shouldn't, and causing hammer. The crazy thing was, I could let water out of the system to stop hammer for a few days. I couldn't understand why until I realized that dropping the water level also dropped the pressure level. But as pressure slowly built up due to insufficient venting, the hammer would return in a few days.

I bought the proper vent, and installed it in place of the small one. It was $80, and we've been water hammer free ever since. We had three different "experts" come out over the years, and just take a look at the boiler and say "it's old, needs to be replaced. That's causing the hammer". Yes, the boiler is old, but that's not the culprit of the water hammer. Most had no idea what they were looking at, so they just went to the obvious.

I've become fascinated with steam heating ever since I went through this journey. If I ever lose my job, I legit will get certified in HVAC and specialize in repairing steam heat systems. There's a bunch in my area, and nobody I could find knows much about them.
Most :impressive: ! :bravo:
And :mindblown: that you were able to find the correct vent. Why are they even still made, or is it a generic, off-the-shelf part with other applictions?
It's a generic vent that is often used in steam mains. It just acts differently (creates slight vacuum) when attached to the differential loop like mine. The book I bought had a paragraph on my system, and mentioned it needs the highest capacity vent possible and it had a table showing venting capacity of past and future vents. I found the original vent on the table and then picked the one still made that best matches it, which is double the capacity of the vent that was on it.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:05 pm
wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:08 am

Most :impressive: ! :bravo:
And :mindblown: that you were able to find the correct vent. Why are they even still made, or is it a generic, off-the-shelf part with other applictions?
It's a generic vent that is often used in steam mains. It just acts differently (creates slight vacuum) when attached to the differential loop like mine. The book I bought had a paragraph on my system, and mentioned it needs the highest capacity vent possible and it had a table showing venting capacity of past and future vents. I found the original vent on the table and then picked the one still made that best matches it, which is double the capacity of the vent that was on it.
:notbad:
Also, :impressive: that you found a book that tells the future.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:07 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:05 pm
It's a generic vent that is often used in steam mains. It just acts differently (creates slight vacuum) when attached to the differential loop like mine. The book I bought had a paragraph on my system, and mentioned it needs the highest capacity vent possible and it had a table showing venting capacity of past and future vents. I found the original vent on the table and then picked the one still made that best matches it, which is double the capacity of the vent that was on it.
:notbad:
Also, :impressive: that you found a book that tells the future.
It's THAT magical.

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Steam-H ... C7D2JGFHS8
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:13 pm
wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:07 pm

:notbad:
Also, :impressive: that you found a book that tells the future.
It's THAT magical.

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Steam-H ... C7D2JGFHS8
You're lucky that book even exists.
Did you ever post a pic of Thomas?
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:16 pm
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:13 pm
It's THAT magical.

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Steam-H ... C7D2JGFHS8
You're lucky that book even exists.
Did you ever post a pic of Thomas?
I don't think so...I'll try to remember to snap one.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:19 pm
wap wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:16 pm

You're lucky that book even exists.
Did you ever post a pic of Thomas?
I don't think so...I'll try to remember to snap one.
Cool. In4Thomaspic.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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