Home heating

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wap
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Desertbreh wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:08 pm
wap wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:18 pm Here's one of the 2 in my living room:
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:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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:lolol:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Just got the wife a little heater so that her hands don't freeze at her desk (thanks Mr Raynaud). It's surprisingly challenging to find a small fanless space heater. I was almost ready to build one. This little guy pulls 300 watts and is 9" across, works great. Image
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wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:51 pm
Correct. It's dead silent went operating correctly...whereas a single pipe system with a vent on the radiator will hiss as it vents. They're also more prone to water hammer.
I've heard water hammer. It's no bueno.
I battled it for well over a year in our house. It takes a lot of time studying to figure it out.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:13 pm Just got the wife a little heater so that her hands don't freeze at her desk (thanks Mr Raynaud). It's surprisingly challenging to find a small fanless space heater. I was almost ready to build one. This little guy pulls 300 watts and is 9" across, works great. Image
:notbad:

Probably against company policy, doe. Dat fire hazard, doe.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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I think you'd have to feed paper into the coils to get a fire going. You can put your hand directly on the metal grate, it's not that hot.
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[user not found] wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:35 pm
Detroit wrote: :notbad:

Probably against company policy, doe. Dat fire hazard, doe.
Usually the risk is blowing circuits out. Nfg. Do it till you get yelled at.
Our office is super cold. A chick I work with had a space heater...but a floor one with a blower. When the weather got cold, they sent out a message saying it's against company policy to have ANY additional heaters and they must be removed for safety concerns.

The next day, security walked by and took it. She had to go pick it up at the front desk, but was told "disciplinary action" might be taken if she brings it back.

:wtf:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:00 pm
[user not found] wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:35 pm Usually the risk is blowing circuits out. Nfg. Do it till you get yelled at.
Our office is super cold. A chick I work with had a space heater...but a floor one with a blower. When the weather got cold, they sent out a message saying it's against company policy to have ANY additional heaters and they must be removed for safety concerns.

The next day, security walked by and took it. She had to go pick it up at the front desk, but was told "disciplinary action" might be taken if she brings it back.

:wtf:
My assistant at work mentioned a few weeks ago she wanted a space heater under her desk. Our HR rep was in the office and said they weren’t allowed.

Because 15 years ago she had one under her desk, left for her lunch break and forgot to turn it off. She came back from lunch to find the fire department putting out the fire that started in her office.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:25 pm
wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm

I've heard water hammer. It's no bueno.
I battled it for well over a year in our house. It takes a lot of time studying to figure it out.
:impressive: that you got it figured out.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:00 pm
[user not found] wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:35 pm Usually the risk is blowing circuits out. Nfg. Do it till you get yelled at.
Our office is super cold. A chick I work with had a space heater...but a floor one with a blower. When the weather got cold, they sent out a message saying it's against company policy to have ANY additional heaters and they must be removed for safety concerns.

The next day, security walked by and took it. She had to go pick it up at the front desk, but was told "disciplinary action" might be taken if she brings it back.

:wtf:
:fullretard:
I have a space heater under my desk at work nfg. The company even bought it. Several people have company-bought space heaters in their offices.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:54 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:25 pm
I battled it for well over a year in our house. It takes a lot of time studying to figure it out.
:impressive: that you got it figured out.
I can go into the mechanics if anyone's interested.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:58 pm
wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:54 pm

:impressive: that you got it figured out.
I can go into the mechanics if anyone's interested.
Sure. Lay it on us.

And inb4faxsaysyou'rewrong
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Detroit wrote:
Calvinball wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:22 pm Interesting. I need to check that out. Crank the rad in the drafty room or just lower the one in the room with the stat.


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Do you have hot water or steam heat?

You shouldn't turn down single pipe steam heat...you'll likely end up with water hammer.
Water, baseboards.


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wap wrote:
Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:58 pm I can go into the mechanics if anyone's interested.
Sure. Lay it on us.

And inb4faxsaysyou'rewrong
We need Max to tell us how it works after :fax: tells us how it doesn't work.
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Calvinball wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm
Detroit wrote: Do you have hot water or steam heat?

You shouldn't turn down single pipe steam heat...you'll likely end up with water hammer.
Water, baseboards.


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Oh. So do you have regulating valves on the baseboards. I have a couple of rooms with old baseboards and they don't have any means of regulating them.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:50 pm
wap wrote:
Sure. Lay it on us.

And inb4faxsaysyou'rewrong
We need Max to tell us how it works after :fax: tells us how it doesn't work.
:mindblown: :amazing:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Calvinball wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm

Water, baseboards.


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Oh. So do you have regulating valves on the baseboards. I have a couple of rooms with old baseboards and they don't have any means of regulating them.
Yea, but if valves are there, it should be fine to regulate.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm
troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:50 pm We need Max to tell us how it works after :fax: tells us how it doesn't work.
:mindblown: :amazing:
:dat:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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wap wrote:
Calvinball wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm

Water, baseboards.


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Oh. So do you have regulating valves on the baseboards. I have a couple of rooms with old baseboards and they don't have any means of regulating them.
I’m guessing not after I saw you have the big standing rads. I haven’t taken off any covers to look yet.


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[user not found] wrote:Tangential but related. Anyone with a wood burning fireplace use a fireback? I am strongly considering one.
I think one of the Maine lakehouses has one. I know that fireplace is awesome, does a great job heating the place up. You’ll get sweaty if you’re within 5 feet of it with a good fire going.


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[user not found] wrote:
Calvinball wrote: I think one of the Maine lakehouses has one. I know that fireplace is awesome, does a great job heating the place up. You’ll get sweaty if you’re within 5 feet of it with a good fire going.


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That's perfect. I need something that throws heat deep into the room
I do too but with my smoke issues I hesitate to put something in that’ll push the fire further from the back wall.


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wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:59 pm
Detroit wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:58 pm

I can go into the mechanics if anyone's interested.
Sure. Lay it on us.

And inb4faxsaysyou'rewrong
So, before I go into it, it's important to understand steam heating systems. Steam heat progressed through the 1800's to the 1920's. In the early days, boilers blew up (yes actually exploded), killing many people and building a reputation of being unsafe. The name of the game became reducing pressure to make boilers safer. I won't get into the different types of systems, but in my case, I have the most "advanced" steam heating system that was developed in the mid 20's. Shortly after, forced air became the norm because steam heating systems were so damned expensive. You had to have a dedicated engineer plot out the system in a new house (which was :waxer: ) and all the parts (pipes, radiators, valves, traps, etc) were expensive to buy and install. None of that was an issue with forced air, so steam heating systems like mine came and went fast. The result is that nobody knows how to work on my system, so I taught myself. I'll focus on our system from here on out...

Water hammer occurs when water gets into the steam lines, or steam gets into the water lines. Effectively, the steam crashes into the water, and that collision is heard in the pipes as a bang. There's many ways this can happen.

At first glance, we have a 2-pipe steam system. Radiators with a supply pipe coming up to the top, and a return line coming out the opposite side on the bottom with a steam trap. The steam trap separates water from steam...and as such is a critical part of water hammer. When I started researching my system, everything I read said to replace ALL of the steam traps to prevent water hammer. Steam traps tend to fail open (so as not to build up pressure), and when that happens, steam gets into the water return lines and before you know it, there's an army of elves tapping on your pipes with hammers (that's what it sounds like).

So I replaced all the steam traps. Proud of myself, I ran the boiler and it was fine. No water hammer for the first few days. Then one night, the elves showed up.

I read deeper and inspected my system closer. To combat pressure, there should be air vents at the end of the steam mains. Mine didn't have any. Too much pressure means steam will push it's way anywhere...including water pipes. I assumed that someone at some point removed the steam main vents because they were leaking, and plugged the holes...so I set out to add them back. When examining the boiler, I saw an odd cluster of pipes labeled as a "differential loop" with a vent on top. I hadn't read a thing about this, so I did some homework. This is when things got crazy.

The differential loop is a mechanical series of pipes that controls the water level through pressure. Too much pressure, the water level rises, and it pukes it out into the return line to the boiler. On top of this is a vent. When digging further, systems with a differential loop were the last iteration of steam heat. They run on less than 1 PSI or pressure ( :wtf: ) and rely on only one main vent to let all the air out of the system...the one on top of the loop. The pressure is so low, and the vents are designed in such a way that they continue letting air out after the boiler is shut off, which creates a slight vacuum. Then, when the boiler turns on, the steam rushes through the pipes because it always travels to low pressure first. This means the house heats faster, and is completely silent. In theory...

I looked up what vent was on my loop, and someone...not knowing what the system was...put a vent on that was about half the venting capacity of what it should be. They even left the original dead vent on the floor, which I confirmed has much higher venting capacity. The small vent was letting the system build up too much pressure, and as a result steam was finding it's way to places it shouldn't, and causing hammer. The crazy thing was, I could let water out of the system to stop hammer for a few days. I couldn't understand why until I realized that dropping the water level also dropped the pressure level. But as pressure slowly built up due to insufficient venting, the hammer would return in a few days.

I bought the proper vent, and installed it in place of the small one. It was $80, and we've been water hammer free ever since. We had three different "experts" come out over the years, and just take a look at the boiler and say "it's old, needs to be replaced. That's causing the hammer". Yes, the boiler is old, but that's not the culprit of the water hammer. Most had no idea what they were looking at, so they just went to the obvious.

I've become fascinated with steam heating ever since I went through this journey. If I ever lose my job, I legit will get certified in HVAC and specialize in repairing steam heat systems. There's a bunch in my area, and nobody I could find knows much about them.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 am
wap wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:59 pm

Sure. Lay it on us.

And inb4faxsaysyou'rewrong

Water hammer occurs when water gets into the steam lines, or steam gets into the water lines. Effectively, the steam crashes into the water, and that collision is heard in the pipes as a bang. There's many ways this can happen.


I've become fascinated with steam heating ever since I went through this journey. If I ever lose my job, I legit will get certified in HVAC and specialize in repairing steam heat systems. There's a bunch in my area, and nobody I could find knows much about them.
RE: hammer Ehhhhh that's not technically whats going on to make your noise, but it is a functional description of WHY it's happening.
Image

But hell to the yea on your steam heating journey. Interesting read very 5/7. Low pressure and the vacuum loop makes total sense; two phase vapors are amaze at transmitting thermal energy quickly. (look at heat pipes n an ECU)
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Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:21 am
Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 am


Water hammer occurs when water gets into the steam lines, or steam gets into the water lines. Effectively, the steam crashes into the water, and that collision is heard in the pipes as a bang. There's many ways this can happen.


I've become fascinated with steam heating ever since I went through this journey. If I ever lose my job, I legit will get certified in HVAC and specialize in repairing steam heat systems. There's a bunch in my area, and nobody I could find knows much about them.
RE: hammer Ehhhhh that's not technically whats going on to make your noise, but it is a functional description of WHY it's happening.
Image

But hell to the yea on your steam heating journey. Interesting read very 5/7. Low pressure and the vacuum loop makes total sense; two phase vapors are amaze at transmitting thermal energy quickly. (look at heat pipes n an ECU)
I'm a simple-minded business person...I simplify engineering things in my mind.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:26 am
Big Brain Bradley wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:21 am

RE: hammer Ehhhhh that's not technically whats going on to make your noise, but it is a functional description of WHY it's happening.
Image

But hell to the yea on your steam heating journey. Interesting read very 5/7. Low pressure and the vacuum loop makes total sense; two phase vapors are amaze at transmitting thermal energy quickly. (look at heat pipes n an ECU)
I'm a simple-minded business person...I simplify engineering things in my mind.
you are extremely close. In your case the steam and condensate (fancy term for water) form slugs, those slugs hit the elbows and fittings in the pipes, and thats whats causing your banging. its literally slugs of water hitting the changes in direction of you pipe at high speed.
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