Soviet EV and taco chronicles + future ponderings about Fendie

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D Griff wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:56 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:32 pm

Yea I trying to be fairly clear about my own scenario here vs "rest of the country". I am with you that there are areas where it makes 0 sense. Hell I was in Texas last month and $2.80 gas is still a thing, and there are 0 EV charging spots. But that's not where I live or will live in the foreseeable future. Those pockets will take the longest to switch over.

I don't foresee EV issues during reasonable road trips either. Traversing the country ?! yea the infrastructure mostly exists for Teslas only, but the whole Electrify america + EV go is rapidly building that out also and its now doable in pretty much any EV. For ex a shit ton of walmarts now have 150kw charging ... you get about 3 miles per KW... and if your car is capable (of the quick charging) you can do the math as to how "quickly" that works. No it isn't like a gas station, where it is 2-3 min, but in 15-25min you can get 200-250 miles of "range" into a vehicle, sometimes more.

I have tried so explain how commuting + road tripping works to some of you on here, but I gave up because some just don't want to hear it. It is doable even now to do things, but it requires some planning, and its getting easier day by day.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/

https://www.evgo.com/find-a-charger/

Interesting places to start some research on current coverage levels.
Oh yeah, it's 100% doable if you live in any metro area, and road tripping is certainly easier in a Tessie versus others. I just thought Matt Farrah's anecdotal experience was pretty interesting, given he is an EV owner and was road tripping in SoCal, arguably the most viable place. I too agree that 20 minutes is perfectly acceptable. Sure, it isn't two minutes, but I find I wander around the gas station taking a piss, buying a drink, etc. for 15 minutes typically anyway. If the charging spots are somewhere interesting (small town, tourist attraction, etc) or useful (like Walmart), it's really a non issue. For me, having to add in planning fuel stops on a road trip is just an inconvenience I'm not sure I'd want to take on.

I feel like a lot of this would be solved simply by Tessie opening up their charging network to others, but :ohwell:
I don't think Tessie network is an advantage once opened to the masses, it will just overcrowd the entire experience.

The other two links I posted already has a comparable network to tesla, ironically tesla charges slow AF on non tessie networks, which is something to keep in mind. There are plug differences, Europe has thankfully mandated tesla to use the normal plugs, that we now use for Electrify america for example, however tesla using an apple style plug that requires adapters. :fullretard:

Superchargers are still a little bit more convenient because they are specifically designed for tesssies, and have the highest charge rates in the industry (Up to 250kw). But the others have narrowed the gap significantly. I.E the charge rates at Electrify america are close to tesla, and I tried it out during my I3 experience and found it to be quite easy and convenient.
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:32 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:14 pm

:word:

I think you're right for your own use. Having rapid charging at home and likely at/near your offices in the Bay Area is a huge asset for this. Frankly, most people don't live in that reality (not that that matters for your use case, but to the ICE cars will be paperweights in 10 years point).

I listened to an episode of Smoking Tire Podcast recently where Matt, Zack, and their guests (all of whom live in Los Angeles) talked about going on weekend trips with EVs, and while it is certainly no herculean task, it proved to be quite inconvenient. You have to plan the entire trip around charging the car, basically. Matt had to drive an hour out of the way to charge, which he stated his wife was pretty unimpressed with. Once there, you have to wait, 20 minutes at best, hours at worst. Sure, it's doable, but for many, the freedom to get in the car and go on a trip with minimal planning and the ability to deviate from plans as desired, it a huge part of it. As someone who has driven cross country many times, there is plenty more than enough planning required without ever having to think about where to get fueled up and how long it will take.

I think an EV would be great for you and your wife :doe: , you have other cars to use if needed, you live in probably the best part of the US for EV, you invested in the infrastructure at your home. 95% of the country is 10 years away from it just being easy. I don't really think >50% of the population will have any interest in EVs until it is equally as convenient as ICE, which we are nowhere near today.
Yea I trying to be fairly clear about my own scenario here vs "rest of the country". I am with you that there are areas where it makes 0 sense. Hell I was in Texas last month and $2.80 gas is still a thing, and there are 0 EV charging spots. But that's not where I live or will live in the foreseeable future. Those pockets will take the longest to switch over.

I don't foresee EV issues during reasonable road trips either. Traversing the country ?! yea the infrastructure mostly exists for Teslas only, but the whole Electrify america + EV go is rapidly building that out also and its now doable in pretty much any EV. For ex a shit ton of walmarts now have 150kw charging ... you get about 3 miles per KW... and if your car is capable (of the quick charging) you can do the math as to how "quickly" that works. No it isn't like a gas station, where it is 2-3 min, but in 15-25min you can get 200-250 miles of "range" into a vehicle, sometimes more.

I have tried so explain how commuting + road tripping works to some of you on here, but I gave up because some just don't want to hear it. It is doable even now to do things, but it requires some planning, and its getting easier day by day.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/

https://www.evgo.com/find-a-charger/

Interesting places to start some research on current coverage levels.
Great video from MKBHD where he took a Q5, Model S Plaid, and a Mustang Mach E on a 1,000 mile road trip to see how they compared.
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max225 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:20 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:15 pm

The 2.0T BMW drivetrain seems to be pretty dang stout all things considered. The timing chain issues exist, but I think by 2016 that was worked out anyway.
Unfortunately JLR decided to create a brand new engine family called "ingenium" in the following sizes ... 1.5, 2.0 and 3.0. So the I6 and the I4 are related but completely concocted and built by JLR, + they are using FIAT variable valve timing tech.

It is a huge :notsure: However the engines they are replacing were timing chain nightmares, but overall solid otherwise. I honestly think I am probably blowing this out of proportion by over thinking it to this extent, as I'll have a warranty for 3 :plac: lifetimes + the option to get extended protection that prevents any sort of :nuke: scenario.

I am pretty sure 99.99% of people don't even consider 1/10th of the things I am actively debating in my mind for no reason other than having car issues.
:lolol: I think the intersection of Professional Bean Counter and Car Enthusiast is a bit :nuke:

You’ll figure it out :doe: , nothing wrong with doing your research.
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D Griff wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:52 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:20 pm

Unfortunately JLR decided to create a brand new engine family called "ingenium" in the following sizes ... 1.5, 2.0 and 3.0. So the I6 and the I4 are related but completely concocted and built by JLR, + they are using FIAT variable valve timing tech.

It is a huge :notsure: However the engines they are replacing were timing chain nightmares, but overall solid otherwise. I honestly think I am probably blowing this out of proportion by over thinking it to this extent, as I'll have a warranty for 3 :plac: lifetimes + the option to get extended protection that prevents any sort of :nuke: scenario.

I am pretty sure 99.99% of people don't even consider 1/10th of the things I am actively debating in my mind for no reason other than having car issues.
:lolol: I think the intersection of Professional Bean Counter and Car Enthusiast is a bit :nuke:

You’ll figure it out :doe: , nothing wrong with doing your research.
It is in fact a big struggle, you’re 100% spot on in that assessment. (In)decision will come in 2 weeks.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:56 pm
max225 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:32 pm

Yea I trying to be fairly clear about my own scenario here vs "rest of the country". I am with you that there are areas where it makes 0 sense. Hell I was in Texas last month and $2.80 gas is still a thing, and there are 0 EV charging spots. But that's not where I live or will live in the foreseeable future. Those pockets will take the longest to switch over.

I don't foresee EV issues during reasonable road trips either. Traversing the country ?! yea the infrastructure mostly exists for Teslas only, but the whole Electrify america + EV go is rapidly building that out also and its now doable in pretty much any EV. For ex a shit ton of walmarts now have 150kw charging ... you get about 3 miles per KW... and if your car is capable (of the quick charging) you can do the math as to how "quickly" that works. No it isn't like a gas station, where it is 2-3 min, but in 15-25min you can get 200-250 miles of "range" into a vehicle, sometimes more.

I have tried so explain how commuting + road tripping works to some of you on here, but I gave up because some just don't want to hear it. It is doable even now to do things, but it requires some planning, and its getting easier day by day.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/

https://www.evgo.com/find-a-charger/

Interesting places to start some research on current coverage levels.
Oh yeah, it's 100% doable if you live in any metro area, and road tripping is certainly easier in a Tessie versus others. I just thought Matt Farrah's anecdotal experience was pretty interesting, given he is an EV owner and was road tripping in SoCal, arguably the most viable place. I too agree that 20 minutes is perfectly acceptable. Sure, it isn't two minutes, but I find I wander around the gas station taking a piss, buying a drink, etc. for 15 minutes typically anyway. If the charging spots are somewhere interesting (small town, tourist attraction, etc) or useful (like Walmart), it's really a non issue. For me, having to add in planning fuel stops on a road trip is just an inconvenience I'm not sure I'd want to take on.

I feel like a lot of this would be solved simply by Tessie opening up their charging network to others, but :ohwell:
Yeah nope. I'm buying advanced tech that makes me wait in line..........no thanks.
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Mach E GT. Seems decent, but man 63k seems like it’s too much for it.

Checks every box except I don’t really like the way it looks, and just blah.
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max225 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:11 pm Mach E GT. Seems decent, but man 63k seems like it’s too much for it.

Checks every box except I don’t really like the way it looks, and just blah.
I saw one the other day, and I know it's personal preference but I thought it looked like a $65k car. I loved it, and really like the regular Mach-E in the right colors too.
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CaleDeRoo wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:44 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:11 pm Mach E GT. Seems decent, but man 63k seems like it’s too much for it.

Checks every box except I don’t really like the way it looks, and just blah.
I saw one the other day, and I know it's personal preference but I thought it looked like a $65k car. I loved it, and really like the regular Mach-E in the right colors too.
I haven't seen a GT yet, but I've seen a few regular Mach-E's now that yeah, they look pretty :notbad: Nice head and tail lights.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
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wap wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:41 pm
CaleDeRoo wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:44 pm

I saw one the other day, and I know it's personal preference but I thought it looked like a $65k car. I loved it, and really like the regular Mach-E in the right colors too.
I haven't seen a GT yet, but I've seen a few regular Mach-E's now that yeah, they look pretty :notbad: Nice head and tail lights.
I just feel that at 63-70k it should have a Lincoln badge up front or something. And a real door handle.
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I think we're still well over a decade away from reliable, fast, non-home charging, consistently. EVs will continue to be cool but expensive tech to commute in, but it's really only viable with another ICE vehicle in the garage for longer trips, and a charger at home.
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MrH42 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:27 am I think we're still well over a decade away from reliable, fast, non-home charging, consistently. EVs will continue to be cool but expensive tech to commute in, but it's really only viable with another ICE vehicle in the garage for longer trips, and a charger at home.
Partially agree. I do plan on having an ICE Travel vehicle in the stable for the next 5 years. But that makes for a really narrow use case and it makes me wonder whether I should rather rent 3-5 times a year.

The main issue for me is mostly that EVs are styled like :shit: and have an emphasis on automation/tech over interior quality/driving characteristics and just “character”. Tesla/machE and almost everyone else falls short in that regard. The ioniq 5 is the first one with a bit of character … and eqs from Mercedes, but we have waaaays to go.

Rivian is there also, but the ownership of a brand new startup vehicle seems :disgust:
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Yeah. It'll be better when we start getting more "normal" cars instead of a bunch of high tech hype focused EVs like we are now.
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MrH42 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:50 am Yeah. It'll be better when we start getting more "normal" cars instead of a bunch of high tech hype focused EVs like we are now.
The other option is the partial EVs, like the plug in Jeep and RR. Unfortunately i fear that this level of tech doubles the complexity of the vehicle, but it certainly provides an interesting alternative to the compromises by one or the other propulsion system at the expense of complexity cost and weight.
Last edited by max225 on Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:01 am
MrH42 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:50 am Yeah. It'll be better when we start getting more "normal" cars instead of a bunch of high tech hype focused EVs like we are now.
The other option is the partial EVs, like the plug in Jeep and RR. Unfortunately i fear that this level of tech doubles the complexity of the vehicle, but it certainly provides an interesting alternative to be compromises by one or the other propulsion system at the expense of complexity cost and weight.
Good morning all

This intrigues me a bit, going to the next larger vehicle size from the Gorf in this political climate makes me consider vehicles that are more efficient, but not reliant on charging stations. Rage4 Prime comes to mind personally, and I also consider most Toyota hybrids 'on the table'. If I were shopping as a dad/cuck in 2021, this would be benchmark, for better or worse.
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Tarspin wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:17 am
max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:01 am

The other option is the partial EVs, like the plug in Jeep and RR. Unfortunately i fear that this level of tech doubles the complexity of the vehicle, but it certainly provides an interesting alternative to be compromises by one or the other propulsion system at the expense of complexity cost and weight.
Good morning all

This intrigues me a bit, going to the next larger vehicle size from the Gorf in this political climate makes me consider vehicles that are more efficient, but not reliant on charging stations. Rage4 Prime comes to mind personally, and I also consider most Toyota hybrids 'on the table'. If I were shopping as a dad/cuck in 2021, this would be benchmark, for better or worse.
Good day sir. Yes toyota Hybrids and Plug in hybrids are absolutely excellent and class leading in mpg/reliability and performance.

A Lexus "prime" version would be top of my list if they made vehicles that were styled a bit more different and catered towards men. Every lexus SUV short of perhaps the Land Cruiser (RIP) is a Bitch-Box. Not quite ready for that yet.
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max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:01 am
MrH42 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:50 am Yeah. It'll be better when we start getting more "normal" cars instead of a bunch of high tech hype focused EVs like we are now.
The other option is the partial EVs, like the plug in Jeep and RR. Unfortunately i fear that this level of tech doubles the complexity of the vehicle, but it certainly provides an interesting alternative to be compromises by one or the other propulsion system at the expense of complexity cost and weight.
I like this idea too, but it really comes down to implementation and complexity. I don't work there anymore, so I can talk more about it...

Jeep is using a plug in hybrid transmission design from ZF. It's the same thing as you'd find in any plug in hybrid using longitudinal ZF transmissions. That's a good thing because the basic hardware is the same across all models, and ZF has proven to make outstanding transmissions. I believe RR is using the same for it's PHEVs.

Where the issues come in is how they're integrated. The Wrangler plug-in was supposed to be on the market a year before it was, and was pushed back constantly due to integration issues...i.e. how the vehicle drives and behaves with the batteries and ancillary controllers. It was so outside of the level of engineering intelligence in the company that I remember being on calls that were just screaming matches between engineering and marketing regarding launch readiness and the "idiot engineers" not able to do their jobs. Ultimately, the CEO of Jeep (a french twat) forced the thing to market despite engineering concerns for drivability and durability. Major :popcorn: on that thing.

The PHEV Grand Cherokee is even more of a disaster, it was supposed to be out in the summer as the launch vehicle for 2-row, but it's been delayed to the end of the year and I suspect longer.

Biggest issue on both is neither platform was designed to take hybrid components. The transmission is physically bigger, the battery is big, the controllers take up a bunch of space, it proved to be a packaging nightmare. Analysis for a PHEV 3-row Grand Cherokee indicated that the entire platform would need to be reworked to accommodate the changes AND THE PLATFORM IS ALL NEW. Fucking moran OEM engineers indeed.

I wouldn't touch a PHEV Jeep for years, maybe ever. RR has been doing hybrids longer and might actually be in a slightly better spot. But even still, :iono:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:20 am
Tarspin wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:17 am

Good morning all

This intrigues me a bit, going to the next larger vehicle size from the Gorf in this political climate makes me consider vehicles that are more efficient, but not reliant on charging stations. Rage4 Prime comes to mind personally, and I also consider most Toyota hybrids 'on the table'. If I were shopping as a dad/cuck in 2021, this would be benchmark, for better or worse.
Good day sir. Yes toyota Hybrids and Plug in hybrids are absolutely excellent and class leading in mpg/reliability and performance.

A Lexus "prime" version would be top of my list if they made vehicles that were styled a bit more different and catered towards men. Every lexus SUV short of perhaps the Land Cruiser (RIP) is a Bitch-Box. Not quite ready for that yet.
Toyota is the only company I'd seriously consider a hybrid from. They don't mess around, and there's a reason they're late to market with a lot of hybrid products...because they insist on doing them perfect.

I just wish they weren't so bland.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:22 am
max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:01 am

The other option is the partial EVs, like the plug in Jeep and RR. Unfortunately i fear that this level of tech doubles the complexity of the vehicle, but it certainly provides an interesting alternative to be compromises by one or the other propulsion system at the expense of complexity cost and weight.
I like this idea too, but it really comes down to implementation and complexity. I don't work there anymore, so I can talk more about it...

Jeep is using a plug in hybrid transmission design from ZF. It's the same thing as you'd find in any plug in hybrid using longitudinal ZF transmissions. That's a good thing because the basic hardware is the same across all models, and ZF has proven to make outstanding transmissions. I believe RR is using the same for it's PHEVs.

Where the issues come in is how they're integrated. The Wrangler plug-in was supposed to be on the market a year before it was, and was pushed back constantly due to integration issues...i.e. how the vehicle drives and behaves with the batteries and ancillary controllers. It was so outside of the level of engineering intelligence in the company that I remember being on calls that were just screaming matches between engineering and marketing regarding launch readiness and the "idiot engineers" not able to do their jobs. Ultimately, the CEO of Jeep (a french twat) forced the thing to market despite engineering concerns for drivability and durability. Major :popcorn: on that thing.

The PHEV Grand Cherokee is even more of a disaster, it was supposed to be out in the summer as the launch vehicle for 2-row, but it's been delayed to the end of the year and I suspect longer.

Biggest issue on both is neither platform was designed to take hybrid components. The transmission is physically bigger, the battery is big, the controllers take up a bunch of space, it proved to be a packaging nightmare. Analysis for a PHEV 3-row Grand Cherokee indicated that the entire platform would need to be reworked to accommodate the changes AND THE PLATFORM IS ALL NEW. Fucking moran OEM engineers indeed.

I wouldn't touch a PHEV Jeep for years, maybe ever. RR has been doing hybrids longer and might actually be in a slightly better spot. But even still, :iono:
Yea the 2nd "version" of the P400E is quite interesting. The first version had a 18KW battery which for a big EV is essentially worthless. However the second version is ~34KW which gives it at 50-70mile driving range. Frankly that is perfect.

Most days people drive less than 100 miles and on the days when you DO, the thing acts like a hybrid and gets decent mpgs (25ish).

So all that above is great... but here are the side effects
+500lbs weight
+giant battery under rear seats
+ complex system with at least 1 EV motor + secondary electrical system that runs while ICE is off
+Smaller ICE (2.slow)

Reliability of the above is frankly terrifying to think about... Say you're cross shopping with a a 2.0 or the 3.0 even, as the EV has a bit more power... you're paying a premium for something that will likely depreciate more... and possibly give you MORE of a headache, and become obsolete more so in 3-5 years than ICE, as an ICE powertrain will run 7-15 years but these hybrids seem to all die by 7 from non toyota brands.

Financially, it just doesn't make sense, and I fear it may make the vehicle worse to drive. However the blending of the two systems is still very :neat: and would perfectly fit my lifestyle.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:22 am
max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:01 am

The other option is the partial EVs, like the plug in Jeep and RR. Unfortunately i fear that this level of tech doubles the complexity of the vehicle, but it certainly provides an interesting alternative to be compromises by one or the other propulsion system at the expense of complexity cost and weight.
I like this idea too, but it really comes down to implementation and complexity. I don't work there anymore, so I can talk more about it...

Jeep is using a plug in hybrid transmission design from ZF. It's the same thing as you'd find in any plug in hybrid using longitudinal ZF transmissions. That's a good thing because the basic hardware is the same across all models, and ZF has proven to make outstanding transmissions. I believe RR is using the same for it's PHEVs.

Where the issues come in is how they're integrated. The Wrangler plug-in was supposed to be on the market a year before it was, and was pushed back constantly due to integration issues...i.e. how the vehicle drives and behaves with the batteries and ancillary controllers. It was so outside of the level of engineering intelligence in the company that I remember being on calls that were just screaming matches between engineering and marketing regarding launch readiness and the "idiot engineers" not able to do their jobs. Ultimately, the CEO of Jeep (a french twat) forced the thing to market despite engineering concerns for drivability and durability. Major :popcorn: on that thing.

The PHEV Grand Cherokee is even more of a disaster, it was supposed to be out in the summer as the launch vehicle for 2-row, but it's been delayed to the end of the year and I suspect longer.

Biggest issue on both is neither platform was designed to take hybrid components. The transmission is physically bigger, the battery is big, the controllers take up a bunch of space, it proved to be a packaging nightmare. Analysis for a PHEV 3-row Grand Cherokee indicated that the entire platform would need to be reworked to accommodate the changes AND THE PLATFORM IS ALL NEW. Fucking moran OEM engineers indeed.

I wouldn't touch a PHEV Jeep for years, maybe ever. RR has been doing hybrids longer and might actually be in a slightly better spot. But even still, :iono:
W O W
Fascinating insight. Thanks for sharing.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:20 am
Tarspin wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:17 am

Good morning all

This intrigues me a bit, going to the next larger vehicle size from the Gorf in this political climate makes me consider vehicles that are more efficient, but not reliant on charging stations. Rage4 Prime comes to mind personally, and I also consider most Toyota hybrids 'on the table'. If I were shopping as a dad/cuck in 2021, this would be benchmark, for better or worse.
Good day sir. Yes toyota Hybrids and Plug in hybrids are absolutely excellent and class leading in mpg/reliability and performance.

A Lexus "prime" version would be top of my list if they made vehicles that were styled a bit more different and catered towards men. Every lexus SUV short of perhaps the Land Cruiser (RIP) is a Bitch-Box. Not quite ready for that yet.
:hai:

Lexus does have weird styling, they are retooling the RX350 as we speak, curious to see the redesign. Based on the new NX200 thing, I suspect it will be similar and a bit more subdued then the last gen (connected tail lights, et all).

Image

Still nothing masculine to see here, and paired with their horrendous HU interface, it's always been a contributing factor in me avoiding the brand too.

I'm personally more about the utilitarian look of the Rav, at least in Adventure trim it has some Tacoma like appeal with a facia that's similar. Sadly the hybrid/prime versions don't get that look, but whatev. The more basic of a bread box the better, it tells people that I'm only here because of needs and not poor taste :lol:
Last edited by Tar on Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:07 pm
Detroit wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:22 am
I like this idea too, but it really comes down to implementation and complexity. I don't work there anymore, so I can talk more about it...

Jeep is using a plug in hybrid transmission design from ZF. It's the same thing as you'd find in any plug in hybrid using longitudinal ZF transmissions. That's a good thing because the basic hardware is the same across all models, and ZF has proven to make outstanding transmissions. I believe RR is using the same for it's PHEVs.

Where the issues come in is how they're integrated. The Wrangler plug-in was supposed to be on the market a year before it was, and was pushed back constantly due to integration issues...i.e. how the vehicle drives and behaves with the batteries and ancillary controllers. It was so outside of the level of engineering intelligence in the company that I remember being on calls that were just screaming matches between engineering and marketing regarding launch readiness and the "idiot engineers" not able to do their jobs. Ultimately, the CEO of Jeep (a french twat) forced the thing to market despite engineering concerns for drivability and durability. Major :popcorn: on that thing.

The PHEV Grand Cherokee is even more of a disaster, it was supposed to be out in the summer as the launch vehicle for 2-row, but it's been delayed to the end of the year and I suspect longer.

Biggest issue on both is neither platform was designed to take hybrid components. The transmission is physically bigger, the battery is big, the controllers take up a bunch of space, it proved to be a packaging nightmare. Analysis for a PHEV 3-row Grand Cherokee indicated that the entire platform would need to be reworked to accommodate the changes AND THE PLATFORM IS ALL NEW. Fucking moran OEM engineers indeed.

I wouldn't touch a PHEV Jeep for years, maybe ever. RR has been doing hybrids longer and might actually be in a slightly better spot. But even still, :iono:
Yea the 2nd "version" of the P400E is quite interesting. The first version had a 18KW battery which for a big EV is essentially worthless. However the second version is ~34KW which gives it at 50-70mile driving range. Frankly that is perfect.

Most days people drive less than 100 miles and on the days when you DO, the thing acts like a hybrid and gets decent mpgs (25ish).

So all that above is great... but here are the side effects
+500lbs weight
+giant battery under rear seats
+ complex system with at least 1 EV motor + secondary electrical system that runs while ICE is off
+Smaller ICE (2.slow)

Reliability of the above is frankly terrifying to think about... Say you're cross shopping with a a 2.0 or the 3.0 even, as the EV has a bit more power... you're paying a premium for something that will likely depreciate more... and possibly give you MORE of a headache, and become obsolete more so in 3-5 years than ICE, as an ICE powertrain will run 7-15 years but these hybrids seem to all die by 7 from non toyota brands.

Financially, it just doesn't make sense, and I fear it may make the vehicle worse to drive. However the blending of the two systems is still very :neat: and would perfectly fit my lifestyle.
The blending is really the ideal option for the next 5-10 years while the EV charging infrastructure builds out. EV when it makes sense (around town), gas when you're going further. It's what I really liked about our Volt, that exact use case. It was fantastic, too bad the car was just small/cramped overall.

I wouldn't own one of these things out of warranty. That just seems like a disaster of headaches waiting to happen.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:11 pm Mach E GT. Seems decent, but man 63k seems like it’s too much for it.

Checks every box except I don’t really like the way it looks, and just blah.
It just looks like a Tessie with some Mustang lights :lolol:

I don't mind 'em, it's a Tessie from a company I would rather do biz with, the dreaded and terrible FERD!

For $63K I would rather have a Mustang Mach 1 :doe:
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D Griff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:23 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:11 pm Mach E GT. Seems decent, but man 63k seems like it’s too much for it.

Checks every box except I don’t really like the way it looks, and just blah.
It just looks like a Tessie with some Mustang lights :lolol:

I don't mind 'em, it's a Tessie from a company I would rather do biz with, the dreaded and terrible FERD!

For $63K I would rather have a Mustang Mach 1 :doe:
THANK YOU
Detroit wrote:Buy 911s instead of diamonds.
Johnny_P wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:21 pm Earn it and burn it, Val.
max225 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm Yes it's a cool car. But prepare the lube/sawdust.
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Desertbreh wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:30 pm
D Griff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:23 pm

It just looks like a Tessie with some Mustang lights :lolol:

I don't mind 'em, it's a Tessie from a company I would rather do biz with, the dreaded and terrible FERD!

For $63K I would rather have a Mustang Mach 1 :doe:
THANK YOU
Right so this turns into the following scenario:

Buy one for under 50k and it has no (few) balls and range, and looks like an absolute jelly belly. Or spend real performance car levels $$ on an EV which still looks like shit and performs great going on an on ramp.

Just a whole lotta :flaccid:
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Tarspin wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:39 pm
max225 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:20 am
Good day sir. Yes toyota Hybrids and Plug in hybrids are absolutely excellent and class leading in mpg/reliability and performance.

A Lexus "prime" version would be top of my list if they made vehicles that were styled a bit more different and catered towards men. Every lexus SUV short of perhaps the Land Cruiser (RIP) is a Bitch-Box. Not quite ready for that yet.
:hai:

Lexus does have weird styling, they are retooling the RX350 as we speak, curious to see the redesign. Based on the new NX200 thing, I suspect it will be similar and a bit more subdued then the last gen (connected tail lights, et all).

Image

Still nothing masculine to see here, and paired with their horrendous HU interface, it's always been a contributing factor in me avoiding the brand too.

I'm personally more about the utilitarian look of the Rav, at least in Adventure trim it has some Tacoma like appeal with a facia that's similar. Sadly the hybrid/prime versions don't get that look, but whatev. The more basic of a bread box the better, it tells people that I'm only here because of needs and not poor taste :lol:
RX Three or four Fiddy has like the highest female ownership ratio out of any SUV.... for multiple reasons. But I am not there yet to enjoy such a thing... I can appreciate it if a sidepiece drove me around in it, but to pay 60k to park one in the garage and it would be nothing but self loathing looking at it every morning.
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