Dem bicicletas dos, doe.

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coogles
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:whocares: , but I wrote this up for the Power Zone Pack Facebook group and thought I'd share it here as well.

I’m coming up on one year with the bike and wanted to share a bit of my experience with Power Zone training as well as seek some feedback from others who use Power Zone rides as the backbone of their training.

As for my training history, I’ve always been active but have never been focused on endurance. My 2nd & 3rd rides on the bike were a FTP warmup and test, and I came off the couch with a FTP result of 174w on 1/31/21. I didn’t ride regularly at first but retested on 4/21/21 anyway and was at 181w. After that I started to train more consistently, doing mostly a mix of regular Power Zone and HIIT & Hills classes for 1.5-2.5 hours per week. On 6/1/21 my result was 202w, and then on 6/18/21 I averaged 220w in a 20 minute HIIT class, equivalent to a 209w FTP. On 7/6/21 I started the Build Your Power Zones program, but from the beginning I thought the classes were way too easy. I decided to try to “trust the process” and stick to the programing, but at the end of the 5 weeks my FTP result was a disappointing 212w on 8/8/21 – an increase of only 1.4%.

Discouraged, I took some time away from the bike and when I came back I stuck with mostly the Power Zone Pack programming, but have continued to make only modest improvements. PZE classes especially feel way too easy to produce any kind of training effect.

This feeling led me to start reading about the science behind Power Zone training, specifically on the TrainerRoad blog. Here’s what it has to say about Zone 2:

https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/endura ... ning-plan/
Training effects come quite slowly through Endurance riding. Since Zone 2 is so low-intensity, you need to do a whole lot of it to create a meaningful amount of productive stimulus.
…low-volume athletes should prioritize training at more productive workloads that can bring the same adaptations in less time.
…pros that train as much as 25 hours a week actually spend most of their time riding at Endurance pace.
I don’t know about all you, but I don’t have 25 hours per week to train. I’m lucky to get 3. Which leads to what TrainerRoad calls “Sweet Spot” training:

https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/sweet- ... d-to-know/
Sweet Spot training is completing workouts that contain intervals at 88-94% of your Functional Threshold Power (FTP). This type of work achieves positive physiological adaptations because it is the optimal balance of difficulty (intensity) and amount (volume).
This power zone rests between 88% and 94% of your FTP. This is a gray area between the Tempo and Threshold zones.
Sweet Spot training is effective because it increases your aerobic capacity and muscular endurance, while balancing your ability to do it multiple times per week.
This makes way more sense. This approach stays below threshold, but comes close enough to have an impact on it, while not leading to overtraining in a lower volume athlete. A typical 1 hour workout using this approach appears to have 4x 8-minute efforts, so 32 minutes total from 88-94% of FTP. Zone 3 only goes up to 87% of FTP, so a Power Zone Endurance ride never gets into this “Sweet Spot” of training, especially if you do as told and target the middle of Zone 3, which would be 81.5% of FTP. Yet PZE classes are the backbone of all of the Power Zone programming I’ve seen.

What I’ve done for this challenge is manually adjust my FTP setting to 230w – 10w above my actual. That puts the top of my Zone 3 at 208w, which is 94.5% of my FTP. I completed the Week 2, Ride 2 class this morning and for all Zone 3 efforts I targeted the top of that zone. The longest Zone 3 effort was only 5 minutes – still shorter than TrainerRoad programs – but it at least felt productive. I had no trouble completing the workout at this intensity despite targeting a Zone 3 output 29w higher than the middle of my true Zone 3.

In any case, I’ve come to the conclusion that a Power Zone Endurance ride isn’t enough training stress to produce much of an adaptation with 2.5-3 hours per week of riding. I found the W2R1 session doable as well, but I guess we’ll see how I keep up with the prescribed rides as the challenge progresses.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? I like the idea of Power Zone programming, but the approach the Peloton classes take seems way too conservative to produce significant results.
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[user not found] wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:51 pm I think the problem with the PZ programming is that it's geared towards riders that aren't necessarily adapted to riding on a bike/indoor spin bike, or have a low aerobic capacity to begin with. So, PZE rides are critical for them to build their aerobic capacity up because operating above Z3 for the duration of a workout (like I do) just... isn't in the realm of possibility for your typical PZ enthusiast.

Looking at your workouts, I'm noticing that your strive scores prior to the last workout are on the low side of things for someone looking to really bump up their cycling fitness - so your thinking in regards to bumping your efforts is certainly on the right track, but I think I think you could afford to push yourself harder than by just bumping your FTP value by 10% and operating off of that. While bumping your FTP number is certainly one way to do it if you're trying to stick to the PZ zone training structure, as it forces you to adapt to a higher baseline, I think you would really benefit from adding some anaerobic training to your regimen. Add in some HIIT/Hills and Tabata classes.

I train with a very rough science behind my workouts - a lot of it is simply by feel and heartrate, since I don't ride with power outdoors. But when I'm on the Peloton, I don't even bother with Z3 unless I'm trying to stay below it for recovery ride purposes because I've been pushing myself hard outside. In a hard workout Z3 is my base/recovery zone when doing hard workouts. Otherwise I'm consistently operating in Z4-Z7.
Amen dude. I was making bigger improvements when I was doing a 10 minute warmup + 20 minute HIIT & Hills class 3 times per week than I'm making now riding for 45 minutes or an hour 3x per week. I'll probably finish this 6 week challenge just to do it. And who knows, maybe I'll actually see some results? But after these 6 weeks are over I'll try an approach like you're describing and see how that goes. I want my 250W FTP test, dammit.
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I'm going to try to do more rides (either real or spin bike) this year. Aiming for 2 per week minimum.
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Johnny_P wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:04 pm I'm going to try to do more rides (either real or spin bike) this year. Aiming for 2 per week minimum.
:doit: I kinda doubt I’ll be able to meet or exceed my 5,516 miles of 2021 this year, my main goal is just getting out on trails more and commuting everywhere I can by bike rather than car.
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D Griff wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:48 pm
Johnny_P wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:04 pm I'm going to try to do more rides (either real or spin bike) this year. Aiming for 2 per week minimum.
:doit: I kinda doubt I’ll be able to meet or exceed my 5,516 miles of 2021 this year, my main goal is just getting out on trails more and commuting everywhere I can by bike rather than car.
That's a lot of miles. I don't think I've ever done that much in one year.
I just don't have the time / don't care to make the time anymore due to the kid. Not a complaint, he's a ton of fun, just a reality is all.
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Johnny_P wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:43 pm
D Griff wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:48 pm

:doit: I kinda doubt I’ll be able to meet or exceed my 5,516 miles of 2021 this year, my main goal is just getting out on trails more and commuting everywhere I can by bike rather than car.
That's a lot of miles. I don't think I've ever done that much in one year.
I just don't have the time / don't care to make the time anymore due to the kid. Not a complaint, he's a ton of fun, just a reality is all.
The past couple of years have been pretty unique for me allowing me to have that much time to ride. Likely coming to a close, but I want to try to keep my fitness dece so I can do some fondos, mountain bike races, and just longer day rides when I can.
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It was like 23F, so I did a 30 minute HIIT/Hills ride with Leanne Hansby this morning for you Peloton bros. It was pretty hard! I haven't actually tried a PZ workout on there ever, usually HIIT is the most challenging for me. When it comes to indoor training, I pretty much just want to pack the most work into the shortest time possible, definitely achieved that. Maybe someday I'll try one of the scenic rides or something, but it just feels kinda blah to me. There's scenery outside. I'm on screens all day.
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[user not found] wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:52 am
D Griff wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:53 am It was like 23F, so I did a 30 minute HIIT/Hills ride with Leanne Hansby this morning for you Peloton bros. It was pretty hard! I haven't actually tried a PZ workout on there ever, usually HIIT is the most challenging for me. When it comes to indoor training, I pretty much just want to pack the most work into the shortest time possible, definitely achieved that. Maybe someday I'll try one of the scenic rides or something, but it just feels kinda blah to me. There's scenery outside. I'm on screens all day.
I've yet to bother with a scenic ride, just not my jam when I'd much rather ride outside.

But agreed on the indoor training/Peloton - I love it because I can compress a great workout into something under an hour, and it clearly works.
Which instructors/classes kick your ass the most? This one was pretty tough, Alex Toussaint is always solid for a kicking in the :balls: . It seems like the difficulty rating on Peloton is fairly accurate. Classes above 8.3 or so tend to be pretty hard, 7s are :butwhy:
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[user not found] wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:21 am Robin's Tabata/HIIT classes are some of the hardest ones I've ever done. I've posted my biggest outputs with Alex Toussaint and Olivia Amato, though. Jess King gets an honorable mention for the difficulty of her sweat steady stuff, too.

I also enjoy Kendall's HIIT classes and Wilpers PZ max classes are good, too.
Kendall kicks my ass. I'm afraid she's going to come right through the screen and call me a :pussy:. Seems like that kind of gal. :lol:
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:lolol: I've only done one class with Kendall (haven't done a ton of Peloton classes really, probably 25-35 total) and it was pretty easy and meh, sounds like I need to give her another try.

I'll try out one of Robin's next time, I think I've done a couple with her that were good.
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I did a 45 min class with Alex T last night. I always like his energy and fee pretty whipped when the class is over.
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[user not found] wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:28 pm
Johnny_P wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:07 pm I did a 45 min class with Alex T last night. I always like his energy and fee pretty whipped when the class is over.
His 45 min Lil Wayne class is pretty awesome. Huge energy. Was my highest 45 minute PR for a long time.

Also... you've got a Peloton account?
Yah a friend hooked me up with a login account. I don’t have the bike I just use a spin bike I got for free off the local buy nothing group and do the class on my phone.
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Johnny_P wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:17 pm
[user not found] wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:28 pm

His 45 min Lil Wayne class is pretty awesome. Huge energy. Was my highest 45 minute PR for a long time.

Also... you've got a Peloton account?
Yah a friend hooked me up with a login account. I don’t have the bike I just use a spin bike I got for free off the local buy nothing group and do the class on my phone.
I do it poverty spec as well on my wife's account and her Bowflex bike. Still a good workout, a little sad to not have the power data but :ohwell:
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I rode a few more bikes today. A 2020 or '21 carbon Santa Cruz Highball (used for $3800). I didn't really love it, nice bike but :notsure: it's worth that kind of money.

I rode the 2021 Spark again and also a 2021 Spark. It's interesting, I feel like myself with cars when I was 17, I can tell differences in bikes, but it's tricky to know what I really want and how it will translate to trails. The geometry between the two Sparks is pretty different, I think I actually like the 2021 better and it has better components.

I'm going to ride the Cannondale Habit 5 again tomorrow and I think buy that or one of the Sparks. The Cannondale seems like a ton of fun but I think the Spark may better fit my riding style - I'm planning on some longer races this year.
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D Griff wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:36 pm I rode a few more bikes today. A 2020 or '21 carbon Santa Cruz Highball (used for $3800). I didn't really love it, nice bike but :notsure: it's worth that kind of money.

I rode the 2021 Spark again and also a 2021 Spark. It's interesting, I feel like myself with cars when I was 17, I can tell differences in bikes, but it's tricky to know what I really want and how it will translate to trails. The geometry between the two Sparks is pretty different, I think I actually like the 2021 better and it has better components.

I'm going to ride the Cannondale Habit 5 again tomorrow and I think buy that or one of the Sparks. The Cannondale seems like a ton of fun but I think the Spark may better fit my riding style - I'm planning on some longer races this year.
Mountain bikes have gotten crazy. There are so many categories & different philosophies around geometry, different body types, riding styles, use cases & trails, I'd have a really hard time buying something if I was going to add another MTB to the stable too.
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D Griff wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:36 pm I rode a few more bikes today. A 2020 or '21 carbon Santa Cruz Highball (used for $3800). I didn't really love it, nice bike but :notsure: it's worth that kind of money.

I rode the 2021 Spark again and also a 2021 Spark. It's interesting, I feel like myself with cars when I was 17, I can tell differences in bikes, but it's tricky to know what I really want and how it will translate to trails. The geometry between the two Sparks is pretty different, I think I actually like the 2021 better and it has better components.

I'm going to ride the Cannondale Habit 5 again tomorrow and I think buy that or one of the Sparks. The Cannondale seems like a ton of fun but I think the Spark may better fit my riding style - I'm planning on some longer races this year.
At that price I would go FS for sure.
Santa Claus bikes are very expensive. And I don’t quite know why.

Giant makes good riding bikes IMO and they’re usually priced well. If there’s a dealer with a Trance 29er by you could be worth a look.

Spark and Habit both sound good though. The flex stay bikes have been becoming popular. Which is funny they’re just single pivot linkage actuated, nothing complex.
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Johnny_P wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:05 pm
D Griff wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:36 pm I rode a few more bikes today. A 2020 or '21 carbon Santa Cruz Highball (used for $3800). I didn't really love it, nice bike but :notsure: it's worth that kind of money.

I rode the 2021 Spark again and also a 2021 Spark. It's interesting, I feel like myself with cars when I was 17, I can tell differences in bikes, but it's tricky to know what I really want and how it will translate to trails. The geometry between the two Sparks is pretty different, I think I actually like the 2021 better and it has better components.

I'm going to ride the Cannondale Habit 5 again tomorrow and I think buy that or one of the Sparks. The Cannondale seems like a ton of fun but I think the Spark may better fit my riding style - I'm planning on some longer races this year.
At that price I would go FS for sure.
Santa Claus bikes are very expensive. And I don’t quite know why.

Giant makes good riding bikes IMO and they’re usually priced well. If there’s a dealer with a Trance 29er by you could be worth a look.

Spark and Habit both sound good though. The flex stay bikes have been becoming popular. Which is funny they’re just single pivot linkage actuated, nothing complex.
There is a Trance locally on the other side of town, I will try to check that thing out as well. I keep forgetting Giant after finding the Stance pretty meh, but Trance should be a much nicer bike.
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D Griff wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:32 pm There is a Trance locally on the other side of town, I will try to check that thing out as well. I keep forgetting Giant after finding the Stance pretty meh, but Trance should be a much nicer bike.
If you're going to be doing any racing the Anthem 29er is the one to check out. The Trance is fun in the right conditions but it's not a super efficient thing.
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What's up with every Giant bike being grey/flat black?
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coogles wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:35 pm
D Griff wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:32 pm There is a Trance locally on the other side of town, I will try to check that thing out as well. I keep forgetting Giant after finding the Stance pretty meh, but Trance should be a much nicer bike.
If you're going to be doing any racing the Anthem 29er is the one to check out. The Trance is fun in the right conditions but it's not a super efficient thing.
The Habit probably isn't either... tough to ascertain on the short test rides. The Sparks climb pretty well.
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FS bikes are hard to get a real feel for just riding around a parking lot. Even a demo is tough if the suspension isn’t set up perfectly.
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All of the shops were really cool, I just went off and road a couple miles, found stairs to go down, embankments to go up, etc. really depends on the shop’s location though, and still pretty much nothing like real single track.
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D Griff wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:32 pm All of the shops were really cool, I just went off and road a couple miles, found stairs to go down, embankments to go up, etc. really depends on the shop’s location though, and still pretty much nothing like real single track.
Even then they're just setting up the rear suspension based on your weight and off you go. They're not dialing in rebound & compression or tweaking things based on your feedback. Some tweaks to a shock can completely change how a bike feels. It's better than nothing, but it's still a very small sample of what the bike can feel like.
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Dammit, Griff. I blame you for this. I've been glancing back at this page for the half the day.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... edark_blue

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coogles wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 pm Dammit, Griff. I blame you for this. I've been glancing back at this page for the half the day.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... edark_blue

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Good luck getting one of those :lolol:

Part of me wonders if I'm dumb for not just spending $5K and getting a carbon bike. :iono: I never cared about that for trails until the Orbea broke in two.

There is really no huge reason to not spend a lot other than deeply rooted :scrooge: and the desire to not have it be a big discussion with the wife. I told her $2500-3K and she was like 'wow that is so much for a bike' and I was sort of like :ohwell: suck it up, buttercup, to which she accepted pretty graciously. If out of the blue, I doubled that, it may become a bit more of a debate. I'd rather save that for a GR86 in 6-12 months I think.
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