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On the plus side, if I ignore everything about "proper training" and "zones" and "base building" etc. then not only do I put out a lot more power, but I don't freeze my ass off as much. By ignoring advice from anyone, I was not only not frozen but I was as fast as I've ever been today.

44F and sunny with winter boots, wool socks, thermal tights, thermal base layer, goretex jacket, thermal hat over the head and ears, and heavy duty gloves = I was just plain cold instead of miserably freezing while riding significantly harder than usual.

Bumping up from a ~150 to a ~160 bpm average meant 180 instead of 150 watts, which translates to a whopping 17.5 mph on a totally flat paved route.

I feel no more tired, at least initially, after riding at 160 vs 150. If anything I feel better because I wasn't so fucking slow. :iono:

https://strava.app.link/aBKw37frVbb

...and even wearing all that and going pretty hard, I barely broke a sweat. My hair was dry, my lower back and padded tights were ever so slightly damp. I have no clue how you people can be warm in cold temps without dressing like Eskimos.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm
D Griff wrote:
I think you have some body image issues... you are skinny as fuck. Be happy with who you are and eat pizza sometimes, it is fine, you will be fine. That is in no way mutually exclusive from ingesting more protein.
I'm skinny everywhere but my damn gut... which is a lot bigger than Zils even though I'm way smaller than him everywhere else and it's all fat. I look and feel about 5 months pregnant when I'm not sucking it in - but I suck it in 99% of my waking hours because I hate it. I have been skinny before, I am not now. Yes, it's mostly diet. But being told to eat more (and ride less because I'm supposedly trying too hard, so there goes any hope of a calorie deficit) when I already know that I'm eating too much is hard to even attempt to understand.

I guess I could give up on the last thing left that brings me any enjoyment (carbs)... but I really don't know how long I could survive like that without jumping off a bridge. I'm frankly not far from the ledge already.
I’ve yet to see you do any interval workouts. :bruh:

Go ahead, do some. Kickstart that metabolism and also boost your fitness.
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Zillon wrote:
troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm I'm skinny everywhere but my damn gut... which is a lot bigger than Zils even though I'm way smaller than him everywhere else and it's all fat. I look and feel about 5 months pregnant when I'm not sucking it in - but I suck it in 99% of my waking hours because I hate it. I have been skinny before, I am not now. Yes, it's mostly diet. But being told to eat more (and ride less because I'm supposedly trying too hard, so there goes any hope of a calorie deficit) when I already know that I'm eating too much is hard to even attempt to understand.

I guess I could give up on the last thing left that brings me any enjoyment (carbs)... but I really don't know how long I could survive like that without jumping off a bridge. I'm frankly not far from the ledge already.
I’ve yet to see you do any interval workouts. :bruh:

Go ahead, do some. Kickstart that metabolism and also boost your fitness.
I tell you what, you build me a fucking route and I will ride it. I'll probably freeze my ass off on every descent, but I'll ride it. Unfortunately I only have what are effectively slick tires now, so keep it paved.

I'm waiting to decide on the next set of tires until I get to try the best cold weather gear on the market whenever it arrives. If I'm still too cold with that then there's no point in buying studded tires.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:40 pm
Zillon wrote:
I’ve yet to see you do any interval workouts. :bruh:

Go ahead, do some. Kickstart that metabolism and also boost your fitness.
I tell you what, you build me a fucking route and I will ride it. I'll probably freeze my ass off on every descent, but I'll ride it. Unfortunately I only have what are effectively slick tires now, so keep it paved.

I'm waiting to decide on the next set of tires until I get to try the best cold weather gear on the market whenever it arrives. If I'm still too cold with that then there's no point in buying studded tires.
Deal.

I’ll build you a route after you fire up that smart trainer and do a structured 30-45 minute interval workout with Zwift, Trainerroad, or Sufferfest.
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Griff, this has you written all over it: https://cyclingtips.com/2020/12/cheap-w ... -clothing/
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Zillon wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:03 am Griff, this has you written all over it: https://cyclingtips.com/2020/12/cheap-w ... -clothing/
:notbad:

I am in serious "make due with what I've got" mode right now but some good links in there for when I have a bit more cash in the budget.

I did just purchase the last thing for now - some Cygolites - 150 lumen rear and 800 front :excited: This is a pretty critical safety thing I should've done a while back.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm
D Griff wrote:
I think you have some body image issues... you are skinny as fuck. Be happy with who you are and eat pizza sometimes, it is fine, you will be fine. That is in no way mutually exclusive from ingesting more protein.
I'm skinny everywhere but my damn gut... which is a lot bigger than Zils even though I'm way smaller than him everywhere else and it's all fat. I look and feel about 5 months pregnant when I'm not sucking it in - but I suck it in 99% of my waking hours because I hate it. I have been skinny before, I am not now. Yes, it's mostly diet. But being told to eat more (and ride less because I'm supposedly trying too hard, so there goes any hope of a calorie deficit) when I already know that I'm eating too much is hard to even attempt to understand.

I guess I could give up on the last thing left that brings me any enjoyment (carbs)... but I really don't know how long I could survive like that without jumping off a bridge. I'm frankly not far from the ledge already.
Just add in a scoop of whey after your workouts. It is 125 calories, it will not make you fat, it will help your muscles recover better.

Do some core workouts to lose the gut. I know you won't but that's the answer.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:10 am
troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm I'm skinny everywhere but my damn gut... which is a lot bigger than Zils even though I'm way smaller than him everywhere else and it's all fat. I look and feel about 5 months pregnant when I'm not sucking it in - but I suck it in 99% of my waking hours because I hate it. I have been skinny before, I am not now. Yes, it's mostly diet. But being told to eat more (and ride less because I'm supposedly trying too hard, so there goes any hope of a calorie deficit) when I already know that I'm eating too much is hard to even attempt to understand.

I guess I could give up on the last thing left that brings me any enjoyment (carbs)... but I really don't know how long I could survive like that without jumping off a bridge. I'm frankly not far from the ledge already.
Just add in a scoop of whey after your workouts. It is 125 calories, it will not make you fat, it will help your muscles recover better.

Do some core workouts to lose the gut. I know you won't but that's the answer.
I do make it a point to eat some brotein within ~15 minutes of the end of every ride, usually just a yogurt which is still full of carbs :doe: so 150 calories for 12g brotein. What's the easy answer for the powdered shit? I know absolutely nothing about it and there are about a million different options all being sold by a nice pair of :tits: with seemingly no real differences between them at a glance.

Is targeted fat loss via specific exercises really a thing? I was always told that it's a myth.
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troyguitar wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:13 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:10 am

Just add in a scoop of whey after your workouts. It is 125 calories, it will not make you fat, it will help your muscles recover better.

Do some core workouts to lose the gut. I know you won't but that's the answer.
I do make it a point to eat some brotein within ~15 minutes of the end of every ride, usually just a yogurt which is still full of carbs :doe: so 150 calories for 12g brotein. What's the easy answer for the powdered shit? I know absolutely nothing about it and there are about a million different options all being sold by a nice pair of :tits: with seemingly no real differences between them at a glance.

Is targeted fat loss via specific exercises really a thing? I was always told that it's a myth.
:sawce: turned me on to this stuff - not the cheapest but it mixes well and tastes good in all flavors I've had. If you shake it up with some really cold water it is pretty good, but it really shines with a bit of milk (real, oat, or Almond). I do two scoops + 8 ounces of milk +10ish ounces of ice water after every workout and it is tasty.

To keep calories low, you could do one scoop with 50/50 water and almond milk (which is only 30 cals/cup), and it tastes better than with just water IMO.

I don't really know if targeted fat loss works, ultimately cals in/cals out is true as you know, but I do think targeting specific areas helps. I really don't know the :science: of that, TBH. I have noticed a major loss of fat in my legs/ass since starting a ton of cycling though, where less has been dropped elsewhere.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:32 pm
troyguitar wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:13 pm

I do make it a point to eat some brotein within ~15 minutes of the end of every ride, usually just a yogurt which is still full of carbs :doe: so 150 calories for 12g brotein. What's the easy answer for the powdered shit? I know absolutely nothing about it and there are about a million different options all being sold by a nice pair of :tits: with seemingly no real differences between them at a glance.

Is targeted fat loss via specific exercises really a thing? I was always told that it's a myth.
:sawce: turned me on to this stuff - not the cheapest but it mixes well and tastes good in all flavors I've had. If you shake it up with some really cold water it is pretty good, but it really shines with a bit of milk (real, oat, or Almond). I do two scoops + 8 ounces of milk +10ish ounces of ice water after every workout and it is tasty.

To keep calories low, you could do one scoop with 50/50 water and almond milk (which is only 30 cals/cup), and it tastes better than with just water IMO.

I don't really know if targeted fat loss works, ultimately cals in/cals out is true as you know, but I do think targeting specific areas helps. I really don't know the :science: of that, TBH. I have noticed a major loss of fat in my legs/ass since starting a ton of cycling though, where less has been dropped elsewhere.
What's the stuff?
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troyguitar wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:41 pm
D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:32 pm

:sawce: turned me on to this stuff - not the cheapest but it mixes well and tastes good in all flavors I've had. If you shake it up with some really cold water it is pretty good, but it really shines with a bit of milk (real, oat, or Almond). I do two scoops + 8 ounces of milk +10ish ounces of ice water after every workout and it is tasty.

To keep calories low, you could do one scoop with 50/50 water and almond milk (which is only 30 cals/cup), and it tastes better than with just water IMO.

I don't really know if targeted fat loss works, ultimately cals in/cals out is true as you know, but I do think targeting specific areas helps. I really don't know the :science: of that, TBH. I have noticed a major loss of fat in my legs/ass since starting a ton of cycling though, where less has been dropped elsewhere.
What's the stuff?
My dumb ass didn't paste the link...
https://smile.amazon.com/Universal-Nutr ... 159&sr=8-5

You can also buy direct from Animal and use :sawce: 's promo (I think balius10) for 10% off which works out to be even with Amazon pricing or so.
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You still need calories dude. Calories are what fuel your rides.

Instead of just simply cutting calories, focus on replacing unhealthy calories (calories from high sugar or processed carb foods) with healthy ones (whole grains, root vegetables, fruits, veggies).

Don’t lose sight of the fact that you’re also trying to increase your power on the bike, as well. If you cut your calories too drastically, you won’t be able to keep your glycogen stores topped off. If you fail to do that, your body starts consuming muscle mass and you’ll lose strength. It’s a delicate balance.

By increasing intensity and duration of your riding, you’ll boost your metabolism, which will help cut fat stores, and also get stronger and faster as long as you fuel your body right.

Good tips in here: https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how-an ... 100-watts/
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:58 pm
troyguitar wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:41 pm

What's the stuff?
My dumb ass didn't paste the link...
https://smile.amazon.com/Universal-Nutr ... 159&sr=8-5

You can also buy direct from Animal and use :sawce: 's promo (I think balius10) for 10% off which works out to be even with Amazon pricing or so.
:wub:

Troy, if you’re sensitive to lactose at all (I don’t think so since you eat cheese and yogurt) a whey isolate will be good for you too. Animal is great stuff, but their protein is whey concentrate which still has carbs and fats. For a true isolate I sometimes use this brand: https://truenutrition.com/p-7410-whey-p ... n-1lb.aspx

It’s a little more expensive per pound, but that company let’s you add “boosts” (vitamins, extra amino acids, digestive enzymes, etc) and has a ton of tasty flavors to choose from. 27g of powder gives you 25g of protein, compared to 33g of powder for 25g of protein from Animal, so that kinda gives you a look at how much more “pure” it is.
:sawce:
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Zillon wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:29 pm You still need calories dude. Calories are what fuel your rides.

Instead of just simply cutting calories, focus on replacing unhealthy calories (calories from high sugar or processed carb foods) with healthy ones (whole grains, root vegetables, fruits, veggies).

Don’t lose sight of the fact that you’re also trying to increase your power on the bike, as well. If you cut your calories too drastically, you won’t be able to keep your glycogen stores topped off. If you fail to do that, your body starts consuming muscle mass and you’ll lose strength. It’s a delicate balance.

By increasing intensity and duration of your riding, you’ll boost your metabolism, which will help cut fat stores, and also get stronger and faster as long as you fuel your body right.

Good tips in here: https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how-an ... 100-watts/
I am a grand total of 2 lbs lighter now than I was in April, and since then have never been outside of 140 +/- 3 lbs, so I don't see why you guys keep telling me to eat more. I'm not losing weight, I want to lose weight, the math is simple, I'm eating too many calories and/or not exercising enough. Would it be better if I replaced the junk food with monk food? Yeah, but it's pretty clear that more calories are not necessary.
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troyguitar wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:08 pm
Zillon wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:29 pm You still need calories dude. Calories are what fuel your rides.

Instead of just simply cutting calories, focus on replacing unhealthy calories (calories from high sugar or processed carb foods) with healthy ones (whole grains, root vegetables, fruits, veggies).

Don’t lose sight of the fact that you’re also trying to increase your power on the bike, as well. If you cut your calories too drastically, you won’t be able to keep your glycogen stores topped off. If you fail to do that, your body starts consuming muscle mass and you’ll lose strength. It’s a delicate balance.

By increasing intensity and duration of your riding, you’ll boost your metabolism, which will help cut fat stores, and also get stronger and faster as long as you fuel your body right.

Good tips in here: https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how-an ... 100-watts/
I am a grand total of 2 lbs lighter now than I was in April, and since then have never been outside of 140 +/- 3 lbs, so I don't see why you guys keep telling me to eat more. I'm not losing weight, I want to lose weight, the math is simple, I'm eating too many calories and/or not exercising enough. Would it be better if I replaced the junk food with monk food? Yeah, but it's pretty clear that more calories are not necessary.
Ok, let me break it down for you in simpler terms:

YOUR BODY IS EATING MUSCLE INSTEAD OF FAT BECAUSE YOU CUT TOO MANY CARBS/CALORIES.

It’s in survival mode. You won’t burn fat or increase power when you’ve reached this point.

Eat more food, but eat cleaner, and up the intensity. Do the hard interval workouts that hurt. Stop being a dense turd about this.

It’s not as simple as calories in, calories out.
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Zillon wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:16 pm
troyguitar wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:08 pm

I am a grand total of 2 lbs lighter now than I was in April, and since then have never been outside of 140 +/- 3 lbs, so I don't see why you guys keep telling me to eat more. I'm not losing weight, I want to lose weight, the math is simple, I'm eating too many calories and/or not exercising enough. Would it be better if I replaced the junk food with monk food? Yeah, but it's pretty clear that more calories are not necessary.
Ok, let me break it down for you in simpler terms:

YOUR BODY IS EATING MUSCLE INSTEAD OF FAT BECAUSE YOU CUT TOO MANY CARBS/CALORIES.

It’s in survival mode. You won’t burn fat or increase power when you’ve reached this point.

Eat more food, but eat cleaner, and up the intensity. Do the hard interval workouts that hurt. Stop being a dense turd about this.

It’s not as simple as calories in, calories out.
:dat:

The weight is just a number. I get that you don't want to be big... but you might look better/have less gut at 140 than 130. +/- 10 pounds isn't going to make or break your cycling performance by any means. We're not saying you should massively increase the calorie intake but building strength is tricky if you're on a calorie deficit.
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It sounds like he’s not in a deficit since he isn’t actively losing weight, but I agree that food sources need to be swapped around to prioritize protein and carbs. Adding the 25g from whey after a cycle certain won’t make him gain much weight at all. Plus his metabolism will react to it and slowly increase and the weight gain will stop shortly. I’d be surprised if he gained more than 5lbs over 6 months if he continues to eat and work out exactly as he is hit added the scoop of whey.
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SAWCE wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm It sounds like he’s not in a deficit since he isn’t actively losing weight, but I agree that food sources need to be swapped around to prioritize protein and carbs. Adding the 25g from whey after a cycle certain won’t make him gain much weight at all. Plus his metabolism will react to it and slowly increase and the weight gain will stop shortly. I’d be surprised if he gained more than 5lbs over 6 months if he continues to eat and work out exactly as he is hit added the scoop of whey.
:dat: and if so, it wouldn't be 5 pounds to the gut, but likely more :massles:
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SAWCE wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm It sounds like he’s not in a deficit since he isn’t actively losing weight, but I agree that food sources need to be swapped around to prioritize protein and carbs. Adding the 25g from whey after a cycle certain won’t make him gain much weight at all. Plus his metabolism will react to it and slowly increase and the weight gain will stop shortly. I’d be surprised if he gained more than 5lbs over 6 months if he continues to eat and work out exactly as he is hit added the scoop of whey.
Any way to boost the metabolism though? 1500/day intake while biking 100 miles/week is nuts, my resting metabolism is like 3K.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:09 pm
SAWCE wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm It sounds like he’s not in a deficit since he isn’t actively losing weight, but I agree that food sources need to be swapped around to prioritize protein and carbs. Adding the 25g from whey after a cycle certain won’t make him gain much weight at all. Plus his metabolism will react to it and slowly increase and the weight gain will stop shortly. I’d be surprised if he gained more than 5lbs over 6 months if he continues to eat and work out exactly as he is hit added the scoop of whey.
Any way to boost the metabolism though? 1500/day intake while biking 100 miles/week is nuts, my resting metabolism is like 3K.
More :massles:. Resistance training is beneficial even for endurance athletes. The more sub-maximal your output, the longer it can be sustained.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:09 pm
SAWCE wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm It sounds like he’s not in a deficit since he isn’t actively losing weight, but I agree that food sources need to be swapped around to prioritize protein and carbs. Adding the 25g from whey after a cycle certain won’t make him gain much weight at all. Plus his metabolism will react to it and slowly increase and the weight gain will stop shortly. I’d be surprised if he gained more than 5lbs over 6 months if he continues to eat and work out exactly as he is hit added the scoop of whey.
Any way to boost the metabolism though? 1500/day intake while biking 100 miles/week is nuts, my resting metabolism is like 3K.
I'm not really confident in that 1500 number, it's been years since I carefully counted calories. It could well be more like 2000 that I've actually been eating on average... but either way it does feel like I should be able to eat a lot more by now, we're talking 6 months straight of activity at this point.
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D Griff wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:09 pm
SAWCE wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:53 pm It sounds like he’s not in a deficit since he isn’t actively losing weight, but I agree that food sources need to be swapped around to prioritize protein and carbs. Adding the 25g from whey after a cycle certain won’t make him gain much weight at all. Plus his metabolism will react to it and slowly increase and the weight gain will stop shortly. I’d be surprised if he gained more than 5lbs over 6 months if he continues to eat and work out exactly as he is hit added the scoop of whey.
Any way to boost the metabolism though? 1500/day intake while biking 100 miles/week is nuts, my resting metabolism is like 3K.
Slowly reverse dieting, which is exactly what we’re suggesting by adding protein. Even though it’s still 4cal per gram like carbs, it’s has a higher thermos effect and is harder for your body to breakdown and use. So by increasing that macro in small increments you can slowly increase your metabolism as it adjusts to each new amount. You can then swap those calories for carbs or fats once your body has adapted to the higher total caloric intake.
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troyguitar wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm
D Griff wrote:
I think you have some body image issues... you are skinny as fuck. Be happy with who you are and eat pizza sometimes, it is fine, you will be fine. That is in no way mutually exclusive from ingesting more protein.
I'm skinny everywhere but my damn gut... which is a lot bigger than Zils even though I'm way smaller than him everywhere else and it's all fat. I look and feel about 5 months pregnant when I'm not sucking it in - but I suck it in 99% of my waking hours because I hate it. I have been skinny before, I am not now. Yes, it's mostly diet. But being told to eat more (and ride less because I'm supposedly trying too hard, so there goes any hope of a calorie deficit) when I already know that I'm eating too much is hard to even attempt to understand.

I guess I could give up on the last thing left that brings me any enjoyment (carbs)... but I really don't know how long I could survive like that without jumping off a bridge. I'm frankly not far from the ledge already.
I understand you're not interested in "getting huge" but a little bit of back development/chest/shoulders goes a LONG WAY in terms of covering up less than perfect abs, particularly when clothed. I think if you want to build the leg and torso strength needed to achieve your goals (which is basically to cycle like Z) you're going to have to eat more brotein than you do, and the easy way to do that without gaining weight is to have a few brotein shakes mixed with water throughout the day. They are not NOM NOM NOM but they aren't bad and they are easy to digest.

I mean, Greg Lemond is the greatest (honest) cyclist of all time, yes? Go look at pictures of him. 5'10" 150 lbs, wiry as fuck. Check the dude's legs on the interweb. They are split like a bodybuilder's, although nowhere as large. Those things were built with thousands of miles of work and a TON OF FUEL. You gotta feed your body if you want it to be stronger.
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