Recommend a new truck for my dad

[Johnny_P]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

[Desertbreh]

I will offer a counterpoint to all the 10 speed hate on here that the 10 speed in my 2019 Tahoe is supah smooth and I like it.

You're actually just confirming their hypothesis that GM brogrammed the hardware better than fraud.

Understood.

[Desertbreh]

We uber blacked from our hotel to the airport in NOLA. It was VERY recent T1 Suburban Premier. I like to think my K2 interior and the T1 are pretty much the same but looking around there are some details that make the T1 top tier significantly richer than the K2. Not enough to justify the bro on it and the T1 Tahoe is just too damn long...........but its a nice interior. If the 2023 Chris speaks of is another level above that.........that's some nice shite. I am obvi a GM fanboi at this point, so it would have to be a major deal on the Stellanus product to move me off that. Ford lost me at EcoBoost and never got me back. Their new F-150 is feo.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

10 gears are a lot to chose from. More than just a machine can do on its own like an old powerglide or torqueflight. So a computer needs to talk to the entire vehicle (engine, drivetrain, etc) and tell the transmission what to do under what circumstances...and it needs to be programmed for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. So it's not just the programming, but it's the integration of all the systems together, and using the data available from those systems to result in an ideal driving experience.

This is insanely complex. Probably the most complex element of any vehicle outside of ADAS. Entire EVs are more simple to program than a 10-speed transmission.

Stellanus is successful because it took the off the shelf approach. Same ZF 8-speed (that comes pre-calibrated) in everything, set up some parameters, do some tweaking for each application and done.

GM and Ford decided they knew better than everyone else and designed their own transmission to be used in a bunch of different things. There is no off the shelf programming available from a myriad of applications like the ZF8 has, so it's really starting from nothing in many applications. Then take into account how different Ferd and GM vehicles are from a platform standpoint (electrical/sensor architecture) and it makes sense that a brand might have a completely different experience with the exact same transmission hardware.

[golftdibrad1]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

10 gears are a lot to chose from. More than just a machine can do on its own like an old powerglide or torqueflight. So a computer needs to talk to the entire vehicle (engine, drivetrain, etc) and tell the transmission what to do under what circumstances...and it needs to be programmed for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. So it's not just the programming, but it's the integration of all the systems together, and using the data available from those systems to result in an ideal driving experience.

This is insanely complex. Probably the most complex element of any vehicle outside of ADAS. Entire EVs are more simple to program than a 10-speed transmission.

Stellanus is successful because it took the off the shelf approach. Same ZF 8-speed (that comes pre-calibrated) in everything, set up some parameters, do some tweaking for each application and done.

GM and Ford decided they knew better than everyone else and designed their own transmission to be used in a bunch of different things. There is no off the shelf programming available from a myriad of applications like the ZF8 has, so it's really starting from nothing in many applications. Then take into account how different Ferd and GM vehicles are from a platform standpoint (electrical/sensor architecture) and it makes sense that a brand might have a completely different experience with the exact same transmission hardware.

excellent insight as usual sir.

[Valkyrie]

Guess we should be using CVT's.

[Desertbreh]

10 gears are a lot to chose from. More than just a machine can do on its own like an old powerglide or torqueflight. So a computer needs to talk to the entire vehicle (engine, drivetrain, etc) and tell the transmission what to do under what circumstances...and it needs to be programmed for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. So it's not just the programming, but it's the integration of all the systems together, and using the data available from those systems to result in an ideal driving experience.

This is insanely complex. Probably the most complex element of any vehicle outside of ADAS. Entire EVs are more simple to program than a 10-speed transmission.

Stellanus is successful because it took the off the shelf approach. Same ZF 8-speed (that comes pre-calibrated) in everything, set up some parameters, do some tweaking for each application and done.

GM and Ford decided they knew better than everyone else and designed their own transmission to be used in a bunch of different things. There is no off the shelf programming available from a myriad of applications like the ZF8 has, so it's really starting from nothing in many applications. Then take into account how different Ferd and GM vehicles are from a platform standpoint (electrical/sensor architecture) and it makes sense that a brand might have a completely different experience with the exact same transmission hardware.

excellent insight as usual sir.

[Johnny_P]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

10 gears are a lot to chose from. More than just a machine can do on its own like an old powerglide or torqueflight. So a computer needs to talk to the entire vehicle (engine, drivetrain, etc) and tell the transmission what to do under what circumstances...and it needs to be programmed for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. So it's not just the programming, but it's the integration of all the systems together, and using the data available from those systems to result in an ideal driving experience.

This is insanely complex. Probably the most complex element of any vehicle outside of ADAS. Entire EVs are more simple to program than a 10-speed transmission.

Stellanus is successful because it took the off the shelf approach. Same ZF 8-speed (that comes pre-calibrated) in everything, set up some parameters, do some tweaking for each application and done.

GM and Ford decided they knew better than everyone else and designed their own transmission to be used in a bunch of different things. There is no off the shelf programming available from a myriad of applications like the ZF8 has, so it's really starting from nothing in many applications. Then take into account how different Ferd and GM vehicles are from a platform standpoint (electrical/sensor architecture) and it makes sense that a brand might have a completely different experience with the exact same transmission hardware.

Makes total sense. Physically the same but with different programming and inputs it’ll end up reacting differently.

Was it truly a joint effort or did GM do heavier lifting on it?

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Guess we should be using CVT's.

From an engineering standpoint, they're the perfect transmission. Infinite ratios to match power output and demand.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

10 gears are a lot to chose from. More than just a machine can do on its own like an old powerglide or torqueflight. So a computer needs to talk to the entire vehicle (engine, drivetrain, etc) and tell the transmission what to do under what circumstances...and it needs to be programmed for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. So it's not just the programming, but it's the integration of all the systems together, and using the data available from those systems to result in an ideal driving experience.

This is insanely complex. Probably the most complex element of any vehicle outside of ADAS. Entire EVs are more simple to program than a 10-speed transmission.

Stellanus is successful because it took the off the shelf approach. Same ZF 8-speed (that comes pre-calibrated) in everything, set up some parameters, do some tweaking for each application and done.

GM and Ford decided they knew better than everyone else and designed their own transmission to be used in a bunch of different things. There is no off the shelf programming available from a myriad of applications like the ZF8 has, so it's really starting from nothing in many applications. Then take into account how different Ferd and GM vehicles are from a platform standpoint (electrical/sensor architecture) and it makes sense that a brand might have a completely different experience with the exact same transmission hardware.

Makes total sense. Physically the same but with different programming and inputs it’ll end up reacting differently.

Was it truly a joint effort or did GM do heavier lifting on it?

about the dev effort, but I think the difference is in the application roll-out:

Day1: 10 Speed is Available
Ferd: PUT IT IN EVERYTHING RIGHT NAOW

GM: Prioritize certain vehicles then roll-out over time. At first it was only paired to the 6.2 and went into vehicles that used it. That means instead of trying to calibrate the thing to a million different engines and vehicles like Ferd, they nailed one engine in 3 vehicles (Camaro, Silverado, Tahoe). They learned and improved from that case, applied those learnings to the 5.3 truck applications (so same vehicles, different engines), then rolled that out when ready. Then came the 2.7T, also in the Silverado (again, same vehicle, different engine), and etc. They strategically limited variables to maximize the end result. Hell, the NEW Colorado has the 2.7T and the old 8-speed. Not because the 10-speed doesn't work, but they couldn't allocate the resources to tuning the transmission to the vehicle (it was a cost trade-off), and the 8-speed is already there (tuned to the truck and tuned to the engine in the Silverado before the 10-speed came). GM puts remarkable focus internally on NVH and drive quality (helps that the CEO is an engineer by trade).

I remember at the time of the 10 speed roll-out, I was in Chevrolet marketing and my bosses were just losing it over Ford putting the 10-speed in everything across the board. WE NEED MOAR 10 SPEED and just like any typical corp, engineering blamed purchasing for not getting enough capacity (even though the drivetrain plan and volumes were set years before). I was out at the proving grounds chatting up a powertrain calibration engineer, who gave me a peek under the hood of tuning a powertrain. Everything made more sense after that, and I'm honestly not sure how Ford is even doing it.

[MexicanYarisTK]

No

Gross. Driving a full sized if you aren't towing is so dumb. It bothers me so much how many people do it.

I know i would spent that money elsewhere that makes more sense for me. Getting a truck for not doing truck shit is literature equivalent to mod the shit out of a wrangler with huge tires and not using the intended purpose of it. Just

[Valkyrie]

Guess we should be using CVT's.

From an engineering standpoint, they're the perfect transmission. Infinite ratios to match power output and demand.

Yeah I get it. It's always been a somewhat obvious answer to me because I'm familiar with CVT's from having them in snowmobiles.

I know that I'm but I just like hearing things go through gears, especially when I'm the one doing the shifting.

[max225]

I was always curious why gm uses the 8 speed in the Colorado … especially the new one. They should have had enough time to “tune” it for the platform by now….
I’m assuming it’s a cost cutting move and something that will add differentiation between the “real” truck and those made for cucks

[D Griff]

Really interesting read!

It all makes perfect sense though, having driven the ZF8 in a bunch of stuff. It’s completely different in our Jeep versus say a 330i and works well in each application at its intended purpose, whether truck stuff or sporty. Clearly the tuning is a huge piece. It’s amazing how much all products are just driven by software now.

[wap]

Guess we should be using CVT's.

As long as they're done as well as Subaru's...

[MexicanYarisTK]

Guess we should be using CVT's.

As long as they're done as well as Subaru's...

Subaru cvt's are really the only ones I really like for some reason.

[max225]

Really interesting read!

It all makes perfect sense though, having driven the ZF8 in a bunch of stuff. It’s completely different in our Jeep versus say a 330i and works well in each application at its intended purpose, whether truck stuff or sporty. Clearly the tuning is a huge piece. It’s amazing how much all products are just driven by software now.

Well my engine from the taco is also found in a lotus I doubt it feels anything alike there… the box it’s under matters a lot also.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Engineers don't just sit around waiting for something to do.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Having enough time to tune is just a matter of a business case, I managed this on the new Colorado.

Example figures:
10 speed auto = $25M dev investment plus +$3k material cost
8-speed = $5M dev + $1.5k material cost

$20M dev savings plus $1.5k material cost savings is huge on a vehicle program, especially one like the Colorado where the business case was challenged at every corner. That $20M was spent on cool shit elsewhere, and I'd still argue that was the right move.

Despite reliability issues, the 8-speed GM transmission is pretty OK. It's hard to justify the cost increase to go to the 10 speed for benefits to the customer. Then add in differentiation from the big trucks, and it makes more sense to keep the 8-speed. I believe there is diminishing returns with gear count past 6. I'd also argue that the number of gears aren't as important as the trans hardware itself for shifting and predictive performance.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

From an engineering standpoint, they're the perfect transmission. Infinite ratios to match power output and demand.

Yeah I get it. It's always been a somewhat obvious answer to me because I'm familiar with CVT's from having them in snowmobiles.

I know that I'm but I just like hearing things go through gears, especially when I'm the one doing the shifting.

That's exactly the thing, everyone prefers hearing things go through gears, it's why any modern CVT has simulated "gears" for drivability.

[MexicanYarisTK]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

Recently rented the 4 banger slowmaro, the trans was pretty good. Manual mode sucked ass though when you go

[CaleDeRoo]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

Recently rented the 4 banger slowmaro, the trans was pretty good. Manual mode sucked ass though when you go

The 4cyl gets the old 8spd which lacks in the manual control department. Only the V8 gets the 10spd

[MexicanYarisTK]

Recently rented the 4 banger slowmaro, the trans was pretty good. Manual mode sucked ass though when you go

The 4cyl gets the old 8spd which lacks in the manual control department. Only the V8 gets the 10spd

:doh:

It was embarrassing when I attempted the manual mode on WOT and it really jerked the car.

[Huckleberry]

Yeah I mean I thought the 10 speed in the Camaro SS was a benchmark transmission. I loved it and honestly think it’s better than the ZF8.

But the same transmission in a ford product is horrific.

Recently rented the 4 banger slowmaro, the trans was pretty good. Manual mode sucked ass though when you go

Yeah, I wasn't impressed with the Camaro rental I had in San Diego. It didn't even have blind spot monitoring, which is criminal to not have in that fucking car. The next time I am out there, I'm going with the Mustang.

[MexicanYarisTK]

Recently rented the 4 banger slowmaro, the trans was pretty good. Manual mode sucked ass though when you go

Yeah, I wasn't impressed with the Camaro rental I had in San Diego. It didn't even have blind spot monitoring, which is criminal to not have in that fucking car. The next time I am out there, I'm going with the Mustang.

I originally rented a convertible, I was expecting a mustang, but for some reason they didn't have one available, so they discounted me and take the camaro, i went why not.