Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[J-Ho-Fo-Show69]

New 4runner looks hot. I'm sure the TurdPro will be like $80k.

4/7. Only thing that looks off to me is where the front bumper meets the fenders.. that little bulge in front on each side is a little awkward.. she’s got some chubby little cheeks lol.

For dat clearance bruh! Probs had to also meet some safety standard.

They finally upgraded the interior of these things. With the push towards the 4 cylinder, I feel they’re trying to make it more every day driver friendly. Curious what actual MPG will be.

Also, they probs will be like $80k like max mentioned. Little rich for my blood.

I also love the rear window roll down. I wish more cars had that. It’s a little touch that gets me.

That Everest color kinda fucks.

[MrH42]

The teal Trailhunter is great. That would be my pick.

I am so confused by their lineup though. So much overlap between 4Runner, Land Cruiser, and GX. Land Cruiser and 4Runner especially. Same exact size, same power train, all the same tech... I'm guessing the Land Cruiser will be slightly more expensive? Why buy that over a 4Runner?

[SAWCE]

The teal Trailhunter is great. That would be my pick.

I am so confused by their lineup though. So much overlap between 4Runner, Land Cruiser, and GX. Land Cruiser and 4Runner especially. Same exact size, same power train, all the same tech... I'm guessing the Land Cruiser will be slightly more expensive? Why buy that over a 4Runner?

All about that status in the name bro!

[Desertbreh]

The teal Trailhunter is great. That would be my pick.

I am so confused by their lineup though. So much overlap between 4Runner, Land Cruiser, and GX. Land Cruiser and 4Runner especially. Same exact size, same power train, all the same tech... I'm guessing the Land Cruiser will be slightly more expensive? Why buy that over a 4Runner?

Yep great question

[D Griff]

Hey look man home charging is great, and I agree things are pretty good in USA for 1 car of a 2 car house to be electric. But the infrastructure for road trips is lacking. Tesla has done a great job with their network....and this still happened. In remote areas they still have a single point of failure / crowding issues to be overcome.

That point I will completely agree with you on. I will absolutely not road trip any ev car other than a Tesla or something that has full access to a Tesla network.

I will also never understand an apartment dweller that drives teslas/evs.

There are certainly use cases. But just like with any other vehicle. I.e attempting to park a F350 dually in SF vs Wyoming.

I hate that EVs turned political. There is a great use case for those cars and no they won’t save the planet and no they won’t leave you stranded in 35F weather after 5 miles. Both sides became quite polarized on the extreme ends on the use cases

All We evidently learned nothing from the great suburban experiment after WWII and forcing every American other than Manhattan dwellers into car ownershit. The government shouldn't be forcing us into a particular type of mobility.

EVs can be cool for a lot of people but they don't really solve any problems that aren't personal problems for wealthy people.

[D Griff]

So I was able to snag an Alfa Romeo Guilia as my rental in MI this week! I flew into Grand Rapids and the Emerald/Executive aisles were awash with grey scale and CUVs. I was about to go for a red Wrongler (so close to Toledo, bro) but walked all the way to the end, just in case, and there was a red Alfa. It's been a pretty neat car, kind of wild that it's the same power train as muh Jeep. My favorite thing are the enormous shift paddles. As much as I'm a manual guy 'til I die, ripping off ZF 8 speed shifts with the giant antlers is a good time. The 2.0T sounds better in this car but still a meh sound, and while it's quick, it's a somewhat uninspiring motor.

The chassis is pretty fun, great quick steering. It takes a ton of doing to get it to rotate (it's the AWD version) but it is very neutral and doesn't seem to understeer at all. Very comfy seats on par with BMW sport seats found in J Ho's machine.

All in all, I think the BMW has a better chassis but the Alfa has better inputs. They should make these with a manual, it would be a future classic sports sedan. It looks amazing and it's fun to have a car that's pretty damn unique. And it's somewhat Detroit approved, being a Stelanus vehicle.

I've seen a bunch of Blackwings around here too

[D Griff]

So I was able to snag an Alfa Romeo Guilia as my rental in MI this week! I flew into Grand Rapids and the Emerald/Executive aisles were awash with grey scale and CUVs. I was about to go for a red Wrongler (so close to Toledo, bro) but walked all the way to the end, just in case, and there was a red Alfa. It's been a pretty neat car, kind of wild that it's the same power train as muh Jeep. My favorite thing are the enormous shift paddles. As much as I'm a manual guy 'til I die, ripping off ZF 8 speed shifts with the giant antlers is a good time. The 2.0T sounds better in this car but still a meh sound, and while it's quick, it's a somewhat uninspiring motor.

The chassis is pretty fun, great quick steering. It takes a ton of doing to get it to rotate (it's the AWD version) but it is very neutral and doesn't seem to understeer at all. Very comfy seats on par with BMW sport seats found in J Ho's machine.

All in all, I think the BMW has a better chassis but the Alfa has better inputs. They should make these with a manual, it would be a future classic sports sedan. It looks amazing and it's fun to have a car that's pretty damn unique. And it's somewhat Detroit approved, being a Stelanus vehicle.

I've seen a bunch of Blackwings around here too

[max225]

That sounds super fun! The cryslertalians seem like an interesting half breed of vehicles

[Johnny_P]

How’s the back seat space behind you? Usable by a toddler? I love these cars.

[D Griff]

How’s the back seat space behind you? Usable by a toddler? I love these cars.

I'll sit in it for you before I return today, at a glance, it's a little smaller than my F30's. I think it would be more than enough for kids like 2/3-13 and adults for short trips, not sure it's working for a rear facing behemoth.

I will say it's a rental with 22K miles (interestingly the higher end cars with National seem to have more miles, a comparable Mazda, Cammie, etc. is usually sub 5K). Interior is still in great shape, exterior is a bit beat up for a newer car (rental) but the cruise control doesn't work, which was a bit annoying for Meatchicken, which is mostly straight, flat highways. Everything else seems to work as expected.

On second notice I think it's actually the RWD model (Q2) and in the wet/cooler temps this AM, some ass out tomfoolery was definitely possible. Sedans are fun to rotate, the longer wheelbase really makes you a hero versus something like a Miata or C5 that will 180 pretty easily (don't ask me how I know ).

[max225]

2024 4 Runner 41k
2023 GX460 58>65k
2024 Sequoia 61k
2024 LX 85k


2025 4 Runner Probably 45k>70k
2025 Land Cruiser 58k>75K
2025 Sequoia 61k>85K
2025 GX550 68k>85k
2025 LC600 85k>130k

This is what pisses me off about Toyota their new lineup is essentially fully overlapping for 3 SUVs... GX/LC/4R are all sharing a platform engines/ length... LC and 4R are extra egregious. What actually differentiates the two? A total GMC vs Chevy debate

[Desertbreh]

2024 4 Runner 41k
2023 GX460 58>65k
2024 Sequoia 61k
2024 LX 85k


2025 4 Runner Probably 45k>70k
2025 Land Cruiser 58k>75K
2025 Sequoia 61k>85K
2025 GX550 68k>85k
2025 LC600 85k>130k

This is what pisses me off about Toyota their new lineup is essentially fully overlapping for 3 SUVs... GX/LC/4R are all sharing a platform engines/ length... LC and 4R are extra egregious. What actually differentiates the two? A total GMC vs Chevy debate

Their bean counters don't care what you think. All they see is $$$$$$$

[max225]

2024 4 Runner 41k
2023 GX460 58>65k
2024 Sequoia 61k
2024 LX 85k


2025 4 Runner Probably 45k>70k
2025 Land Cruiser 58k>75K
2025 Sequoia 61k>85K
2025 GX550 68k>85k
2025 LC600 85k>130k

This is what pisses me off about Toyota their new lineup is essentially fully overlapping for 3 SUVs... GX/LC/4R are all sharing a platform engines/ length... LC and 4R are extra egregious. What actually differentiates the two? A total GMC vs Chevy debate

Their bean counters don't care what you think. All they see is $$$$$$$

They should... I am a loyal toyota customer

[D Griff]

They're capitalizing on the trend of the decade. :millenial: have some money now and that offroad/overlanding/lifestyle vehicle category is THE hotness for our generation. Toyota is the biggest name in the game and they're printing money with it. Meanwhile the 86 is like... cheaper than 2013 when it came out (after inflation). Because no one GAF about that category.

Toyota is the best run car company IMO, they do things that actually make sense and they've been continually successful because of it.

Do I see the point in those two vehicles existing? Not really, but

I often look at lineups and wonder why we need four five seat CUVs from each manufacturer with sizes varying by inches, but the reality is, the market demands it.

15 years ago most manufacturers did this with sedans, now only the Germans remain. I mean, what is really the difference in 3/5/7 series or A4/6/8? Like... a few inches. They hold the same number of people and similar amounts of shit, just slightly less comfortably in the lower number variants.

[MrH42]

Their bean counters don't care what you think. All they see is $$$$$$$

They should... I am a loyal toyota customer

The overlapping models piss you off to the point you wouldn't buy one?

I mean, I'm confused by the LC and 4Runner overlap too, but if the answer is just: we think there's a big enough market to support two models, that's good enough for me It's not like it turns me off as a customer. More choice is good.

[J-Ho-Fo-Show69]

They're capitalizing on the trend of the decade. :millenial: have some money now and that offroad/overlanding/lifestyle vehicle category is THE hotness for our generation. Toyota is the biggest name in the game and they're printing money with it. Meanwhile the 86 is like... cheaper than 2013 when it came out (after inflation). Because no one GAF about that category.

Toyota is the best run car company IMO, they do things that actually make sense and they've been continually successful because of it.

Do I see the point in those two vehicles existing? Not really, but

I often look at lineups and wonder why we need four five seat CUVs from each manufacturer with sizes varying by inches, but the reality is, the market demands it.

15 years ago most manufacturers did this with sedans, now only the Germans remain. I mean, what is really the difference in 3/5/7 series or A4/6/8? Like... a few inches. They hold the same number of people and similar amounts of shit, just slightly less comfortably in the lower number variants.

[max225]

They should... I am a loyal toyota customer

The overlapping models piss you off to the point you wouldn't buy one?

I mean, I'm confused by the LC and 4Runner overlap too, but if the answer is just: we think there's a big enough market to support two models, that's good enough for me It's not like it turns me off as a customer. More choice is good.

I just want things to make sense. I feel like instead of them wasting valuable resources on badge engineering they could have actually brought out say a bronco competitor... instead of literally having a LC/4R that are the same fking car/suv.

Time will tell how they will sell. IMO they sliced the market too thin, there is too much overlap and there won't be enough demand across the multiple brand/model offerings. Compared to the available consumers.

There are massive debates on the Tacoma forum around their new generation of trucks because prices went up 20% and complexity did too... Toyota is slowly but surely losing their ethos of being a simple and reliable brand and doing shit ford did 15 years ago... i.e TT V6 and having tons of issues now. I don't think the current model will be anywhere as reliable as generations of the past. And on top of that they are pricing out their customers. I bet the upper trims for the 4R will be well north of 60k. I am sorry but that's not TOYOTA territory. They are a VALUE brand.

New tacoma is topping out at 55k for a mid level trim... I think the average american can't afford these vehicles anymore. (and they are already discounting the Tundras like crazy... and some are discounting the new tacomas already by 3k)... this is unheard of in a brand new model.

[D Griff]

I agree that it would be nice if they were cheaper. I think we all bemoan the days of a decent Tacoma being $30k but that was 15 years ago. I guess time will tell. Due, maybe rolling that into one model drove higher prices but they’re going to charge as much as they can either way so

It’s really interesting how everyone seems to complain about feeling ‘poor’ and yet companies still demand these high prices and people still buy expensive shit, even with dumb interest rates. I personally wouldn’t have bought the 86 if I hadn’t been able to pay cash because I’m not into 7% APR on top of paying MSRP or more, but I’m a like more conservative financially than most Americans I guess.

Hell, I went to a restaurant in Ann Arbor the other night where I paid $20 for a chicken sandwich and fries and beers were $10. Ann Arbor is VERY nice but it’s a college town in Michigan… what the fuck?

[D Griff]

Back seat in the Alfa was pretty small, I’d be pretty uncomfortable sitting behind myself for more than 30 minutes. I could ride behind myself in the 328i all day. I’m tall but my legs are relatively short and I sit close to the steering wheel too.

[max225]

I agree that it would be nice if they were cheaper. I think we all bemoan the days of a decent Tacoma being $30k but that was 15 years ago. I guess time will tell. Due, maybe rolling that into one model drove higher prices but they’re going to charge as much as they can either way so

It’s really interesting how everyone seems to complain about feeling ‘poor’ and yet companies still demand these high prices and people still buy expensive shit, even with dumb interest rates. I personally wouldn’t have bought the 86 if I hadn’t been able to pay cash because I’m not into 7% APR on top of paying MSRP or more, but I’m a like more conservative financially than most Americans I guess.

Hell, I went to a restaurant in Ann Arbor the other night where I paid $20 for a chicken sandwich and fries and beers were $10. Ann Arbor is VERY nice but it’s a college town in Michigan… what the fuck?

The issue is not necessarily a Tacoma 15 years ago but more like a Tacoma last year to this year. The spread is quite large … same goes for sequoia, Prius, Tacoma, tundra etc. every new model is 20% more from the start. Better cars or not is somewhat irrelevant as they really raised prices like crazy.

My trd bro had a 48k msrp, the same model will be 60k minimum later on this year. That’s no small feat.

[J-Ho-Fo-Show69]

Back seat in the Alfa was pretty small, I’d be pretty uncomfortable sitting behind myself for more than 30 minutes. I could ride behind myself in the 328i all day. I’m tall but my legs are relatively short and I sit close to the steering wheel too.

I think we have the same leg length, which is wild since you’re like 4 inches taller than me.

[D Griff]

Yeah I’m a 32” inseam, wild at 6’1”. Sadly makes me not fit in Miatas and S2000s for shit.

[CaleDeRoo]

Yeah I’m a 32” inseam, wild at 6’1”. Sadly makes me not fit in Miatas and S2000s for shit.

Bolt a seatback to the floor and sit on the carpet. Stay positive dude

[D Griff]

Yeah I’m a 32” inseam, wild at 6’1”. Sadly makes me not fit in Miatas and S2000s for shit.

Bolt a seatback to the floor and sit on the carpet. Stay positive dude

I mean, I did own a Miata and modded it for that, certainly possible. I'm just way more comfy in the 86 , although I do miss a 'vert/targa sometimes. I think Eric and Brad have the right idea with the BMW 'verts as they can actually seat four and offer a lot of the fun. A manual F80 'vert would be a dope daily.

[Johnny_P]

Back seat in the Alfa was pretty small, I’d be pretty uncomfortable sitting behind myself for more than 30 minutes. I could ride behind myself in the 328i all day. I’m tall but my legs are relatively short and I sit close to the steering wheel too.

Ah balls. Yeah way too small for the child fortresses that are rear facing car seats.