Home chat 1.0

[golftdibrad1]

So the ac company made some changes. The service guy said I might need to add a supply duct to the 3rd floor and modify a return on the second floor. He said he thinks the duct work is probably undersized.

Had another 95 degree day. The 3rd floor would barely stay at 85f with the unit running full blast.

AC company’s official stance? It’s sized right, your house just sucks. You need to insulate the 3rd floor and replace duct work.

Not sure what to do from here. They’re essentially washing their hands of this.

Fuck all that. I'd legit give them one more shot and tell them next step is legal action. They knew to size for your wall section - if its not insulated it needs more capacity. As for the ducts, they should have accounted for that in the blower sizing OR recommended/demaded replacement at time of service OR refused to do the work because they knew the system would underperform OR have you sign away liability should the system underperform due to these preexisting conditions.

Kinda the same deal when an oil leak or bad tensioner causes a belt to fail on your car and they might replace the belt to get you back on the road but wont warranty the work cause they know you just be back in 2 months.

[Johnny_P]

So the ac company made some changes. The service guy said I might need to add a supply duct to the 3rd floor and modify a return on the second floor. He said he thinks the duct work is probably undersized.

Had another 95 degree day. The 3rd floor would barely stay at 85f with the unit running full blast.

AC company’s official stance? It’s sized right, your house just sucks. You need to insulate the 3rd floor and replace duct work.

Not sure what to do from here. They’re essentially washing their hands of this.

Fuck all that. I'd legit give them one more shot and tell them next step is legal action. They knew to size for your wall section - if its not insulated it needs more capacity. As for the ducts, they should have accounted for that in the blower sizing OR recommended/demaded replacement at time of service OR refused to do the work because they knew the system would underperform OR have you sign away liability should the system underperform due to these preexisting conditions.

Kinda the same deal when an oil leak or bad tensioner causes a belt to fail on your car and they might replace the belt to get you back on the road but wont warranty the work cause they know you just be back in 2 months.

Every single AC company had a stipulation in their contract to perform work that they would not guarantee the system performance. Not a single one would guarantee it and I got six quotes. I went with what I thought was the best heat pump that had the best chance of warming the house. I now have no faith this will warm the house in the winter.

Either way it’s going to come back to me to pay for anything else. That’s either insulation or ducting changes or both. I don’t see a situation where they would exchange an air handler. Because they sized the air handlers to the maximum the outdoor compressor can supply. That unit can only do two 2-ton zones. And they installed two 2-ton zones onto it, so it has no room to expand. Anything larger upstairs would require replacement of the outdoor condenser unit which is a single unit that does both zones.

[golftdibrad1]

Fuck all that. I'd legit give them one more shot and tell them next step is legal action. They knew to size for your wall section - if its not insulated it needs more capacity. As for the ducts, they should have accounted for that in the blower sizing OR recommended/demaded replacement at time of service OR refused to do the work because they knew the system would underperform OR have you sign away liability should the system underperform due to these preexisting conditions.

Kinda the same deal when an oil leak or bad tensioner causes a belt to fail on your car and they might replace the belt to get you back on the road but wont warranty the work cause they know you just be back in 2 months.

Every single AC company had a stipulation in their contract to perform work that they would not guarantee the system performance. Not a single one would guarantee it and I got six quotes. I went with what I thought was the best heat pump that had the best chance of warming the house. I now have no faith this will warm the house in the winter.

Either way it’s going to come back to me to pay for anything else. That’s either insulation or ducting changes or both. I don’t see a situation where they would exchange an air handler. Because they sized the air handlers to the maximum the outdoor compressor can supply. That unit can only do two 2-ton zones. And they installed two 2-ton zones onto it, so it has no room to expand. Anything larger upstairs would require replacement of the outdoor condenser unit which is a single unit that does both zones.

[D Griff]

So the ac company made some changes. The service guy said I might need to add a supply duct to the 3rd floor and modify a return on the second floor. He said he thinks the duct work is probably undersized.

Had another 95 degree day. The 3rd floor would barely stay at 85f with the unit running full blast.

AC company’s official stance? It’s sized right, your house just sucks. You need to insulate the 3rd floor and replace duct work.

Not sure what to do from here. They’re essentially washing their hands of this.

I’ve got a lawyer friend in Philly.. he does corporate stuff but LOVES a good fight and would know someone who could help you out I bet. Let me know if you want an intro.

I don’t know what you spent, but based on what you talked about, probably a lot. You deserve shit that works. If other stuff was needed to make it work, they should’ve told you that before, not after.

[D Griff]

Every single AC company had a stipulation in their contract to perform work that they would not guarantee the system performance. Not a single one would guarantee it and I got six quotes. I went with what I thought was the best heat pump that had the best chance of warming the house. I now have no faith this will warm the house in the winter.

Either way it’s going to come back to me to pay for anything else. That’s either insulation or ducting changes or both. I don’t see a situation where they would exchange an air handler. Because they sized the air handlers to the maximum the outdoor compressor can supply. That unit can only do two 2-ton zones. And they installed two 2-ton zones onto it, so it has no room to expand. Anything larger upstairs would require replacement of the outdoor condenser unit which is a single unit that does both zones.

fuck.

[Johnny_P]

New issue with the house of horrors.

Having some brick pointing done this week. Contractors started this morning and the guy said he was at this house 10 years ago. The chimney was about to collapse and they repointed the whole thing. He said it needed to be totally rebuilt but they didn’t want to spend the money. It’s leaning and it’s been leaning for 10 years now. He warned me to keep an eye on it.

Only one piece of gas equipment using that chimney anymore anyway. Just the water heater. I could switch that to a power vented water heater or a heat pump one and abandon the chimney fully. Then tear it down and patch over the roof.

Yay homeowners not disclosing information.

[Johnny_P]

Also ac update. They came back out again to tinker with it. Found it was low on refrigerant so it was topped up. And the filter was fully clogged so they replaced that. Made some more tweaks and now it’s cycling on and off a bit more normally.

But the dude said the house needs 1) duct changes, 2) air sealing, 3) insulation. For the system to work right. I said then it’s not the right system. He said it was sized right. I said it was clearly not if I need to spend even more to make it work in the house.

So it’s time for a shitty review posted literally everywhere. I gave them enough chances. Then they had the balls to have their office call me to set up a duct work review and quote. Yeah no. Not using your shitty company for any more work.

[coogles]

Every single AC company had a stipulation in their contract to perform work that they would not guarantee the system performance. Not a single one would guarantee it and I got six quotes. I went with what I thought was the best heat pump that had the best chance of warming the house. I now have no faith this will warm the house in the winter.

Either way it’s going to come back to me to pay for anything else. That’s either insulation or ducting changes or both. I don’t see a situation where they would exchange an air handler. Because they sized the air handlers to the maximum the outdoor compressor can supply. That unit can only do two 2-ton zones. And they installed two 2-ton zones onto it, so it has no room to expand. Anything larger upstairs would require replacement of the outdoor condenser unit which is a single unit that does both zones.

When we had our system replaced our vendor basically said something similar. I said our biggest complaint was the temperature delta from the first to the second floor, easily felt when you get about halfway up the stairs during the summer. Measured it's about a 7* difference. Our estimator basically just told us it's a shit ductwork design. The furnace is in the basement, and it has one main duct that goes up into the attic and then fans out like a spider's legs to the rooms upstairs. The ducts in the first floor are in the floor, so the air going upstairs has a LOT longer distance to travel to reach the living space.

Going to a larger unit that's continuously variable has reduced that delta a little bit, but it's definitely still there. The only way to solve it would be to go to separate units for each floor.

[coogles]

Also ac update. They came back out again to tinker with it. Found it was low on refrigerant so it was topped up. And the filter was fully clogged so they replaced that. Made some more tweaks and now it’s cycling on and off a bit more normally.

But the dude said the house needs 1) duct changes, 2) air sealing, 3) insulation. For the system to work right. I said then it’s not the right system. He said it was sized right. I said it was clearly not if I need to spend even more to make it work in the house.

So it’s time for a shitty review posted literally everywhere. I gave them enough chances. Then they had the balls to have their office call me to set up a duct work review and quote. Yeah no. Not using your shitty company for any more work.

[dubshow]

Also ac update. They came back out again to tinker with it. Found it was low on refrigerant so it was topped up. And the filter was fully clogged so they replaced that. Made some more tweaks and now it’s cycling on and off a bit more normally.

But the dude said the house needs 1) duct changes, 2) air sealing, 3) insulation. For the system to work right. I said then it’s not the right system. He said it was sized right. I said it was clearly not if I need to spend even more to make it work in the house.

So it’s time for a shitty review posted literally everywhere. I gave them enough chances. Then they had the balls to have their office call me to set up a duct work review and quote. Yeah no. Not using your shitty company for any more work.

how is the filter clogged so quickly? and you have a leak if the refrigerant was low... man... or they didnt fill and check it... or add some to make up for line length? Either way thats a massive red flag that has nothing to do with your old shitty house.

Re: old shitty house. Anything built before 2010 needs more insulation and air sealing.

This is why i just sized my own unit (+ .5 tons from the 1994 unit). I feel for ya man. Serious rage.

with the 100 degrees heat we've had my open house side couldnt stay below 75 degrees and my vent temp is 58.... I need to insulate the attic.

[Johnny_P]

Also ac update. They came back out again to tinker with it. Found it was low on refrigerant so it was topped up. And the filter was fully clogged so they replaced that. Made some more tweaks and now it’s cycling on and off a bit more normally.

But the dude said the house needs 1) duct changes, 2) air sealing, 3) insulation. For the system to work right. I said then it’s not the right system. He said it was sized right. I said it was clearly not if I need to spend even more to make it work in the house.

So it’s time for a shitty review posted literally everywhere. I gave them enough chances. Then they had the balls to have their office call me to set up a duct work review and quote. Yeah no. Not using your shitty company for any more work.

how is the filter clogged so quickly? and you have a leak if the refrigerant was low... man... or they didnt fill and check it... or add some to make up for line length? Either way thats a massive red flag that has nothing to do with your old shitty house.

Re: old shitty house. Anything built before 2010 needs more insulation and air sealing.

This is why i just sized my own unit (+ .5 tons from the 1994 unit). I feel for ya man. Serious rage.

with the 100 degrees heat we've had my open house side couldnt stay below 75 degrees and my vent temp is 58.... I need to insulate the attic.

Yeah the low refrigerant is odd. I chalked that up to a shitty installation by the dude that cleary was in over his head. But yeah maybe a leak who knows.

Sizing I agree it’s a half ton under. At minimum. But see prior posts, they’ve maxed out the outdoor unit so they can’t install a higher capacity air handler.

The clogged filter they said can happen when they’re banging stuff around with installation. Which makes sense. But I had technicians out here 3x prior to install manager bro and nobody identified that the filter was clogged? I saw the thing it was like a wool blanket lol.

[golftdibrad1]

Also ac update. They came back out again to tinker with it. Found it was low on refrigerant so it was topped up. And the filter was fully clogged so they replaced that. Made some more tweaks and now it’s cycling on and off a bit more normally.

But the dude said the house needs 1) duct changes, 2) air sealing, 3) insulation. For the system to work right. I said then it’s not the right system. He said it was sized right. I said it was clearly not if I need to spend even more to make it work in the house.

So it’s time for a shitty review posted literally everywhere. I gave them enough chances. Then they had the balls to have their office call me to set up a duct work review and quote. Yeah no. Not using your shitty company for any more work.

You mean the refrigerant filter or the air filter? odd either one is clogged so soon after an install. But yes you are spot on re: sizing and performance.

Yeah the low refrigerant is odd. I chalked that up to a shitty installation by the dude that cleary was in over his head. But yeah maybe a leak who knows.

Its not odd, they either did the initial fill poorly or there is a fucking leak. It does not just disappear.

[golftdibrad1]

Have you considered doing a DIY split to supplement and maybe just hiring out contractor to do the hard parts on the ladder?

[Johnny_P]

Also ac update. They came back out again to tinker with it. Found it was low on refrigerant so it was topped up. And the filter was fully clogged so they replaced that. Made some more tweaks and now it’s cycling on and off a bit more normally.

But the dude said the house needs 1) duct changes, 2) air sealing, 3) insulation. For the system to work right. I said then it’s not the right system. He said it was sized right. I said it was clearly not if I need to spend even more to make it work in the house.

So it’s time for a shitty review posted literally everywhere. I gave them enough chances. Then they had the balls to have their office call me to set up a duct work review and quote. Yeah no. Not using your shitty company for any more work.

You mean the refrigerant filter or the air filter? odd either one is clogged so soon after an install. But yes you are spot on re: sizing and performance.

Yeah the low refrigerant is odd. I chalked that up to a shitty installation by the dude that cleary was in over his head. But yeah maybe a leak who knows.

Its not odd, they either did the initial fill poorly or there is a fucking leak. It does not just disappear.

Texted the install manager. He said he found a flare joint that wasn’t properly assembled and was leaking. So there’s the source of the leak.

[Johnny_P]

Have you considered doing a DIY split to supplement and maybe just hiring out contractor to do the hard parts on the ladder?

Yeah but that’s more cost and equipment. I’d get a better return from the insulation work. If that doesn’t work then it’s window ac time. Because I’m done with hvac contractors.

[golftdibrad1]

Have you considered doing a DIY split to supplement and maybe just hiring out contractor to do the hard parts on the ladder?

Yeah but that’s more cost and equipment. I’d get a better return from the insulation work. If that doesn’t work then it’s window ac time. Because I’m done with hvac contractors.

Sure. whats electric cost by you? The diy splits are like ~1500 for 18k btu. The DIY part, well youd have to do some shit yourself.

I've decided to ditch my central air-con and do DIY splits in other news. I'll keep the gas heat tho for both when really cold and to have a backup.

[Johnny_P]

Yeah but that’s more cost and equipment. I’d get a better return from the insulation work. If that doesn’t work then it’s window ac time. Because I’m done with hvac contractors.

Sure. whats electric cost by you? The diy splits are like ~1500 for 18k btu. The DIY part, well youd have to do some shit yourself.

I've decided to ditch my central air-con and do DIY splits in other news. I'll keep the gas heat tho for both when really cold and to have a backup.

I’d do splits if I did it over. No way am I dealing with this horseshit again.

[MrH42]

Is this a single air handler in the basement, going up a total of 4 floors? Basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor, and attic on the 3rd floor?

[dubshow]

I've repaired my DIY installed mini split. I didnt tq the small 1/4" line enough. It needed 11 ft lbs. It had a leak. Lets see if that was my fix and my garage has cold air again.

Meanwhile, with the extreme 100+ weekly heat I'm forced to add insulation to my terriblely insulated large open attic. I think it will be a mixed approach of some rolls and celluose for the hard to get spots. The trick will be preventing the blow in cellulose from going into my eaves/soffits... I dont have enough room to (comfortably) install the baffle blocks (it would be a MASSIVE PITA).

Its not a hard job, just a royal PITA and mess. For all cellulose DIY i was about $1000 of material. The r-20 batts were about $4300.

[Tar]

My basement is level to the backyard, finished with walk out. One level up is my main floor, and bedrooms are located a floor above that. Anytime the basement door is open, the cold air falls to the bottom and it's an icebox down their. I mention this because aside from the door anomaly, furnace is located at basement level and the air pressure is much higher in the basement than the main or top level.

To get more push upstairs, I typically block all basement vents, and it does a fairly good job of evening out the temp delta. Just shoving some reusable grocery bags, and clear taping the vent openings does the trick. If I didn't do this, there would be a 5 to 10 degree change in temp from the bottom to the top.

[golftdibrad1]

So looking at units for my upcoming ac project.

Looking at getting this. No, actually 2, the big ones.
https://senville.com/48000-btu-quad-zon ... na-48hf-q/

First hiccup - I need to check my sub panel, I think its 80 amps and I'd need 90 - not to mention there are a few 110v loads on that panel too. But I can run one from the main panel if I have room / capacity so not a show stopper yet. But hot daym thats a lot of power to run when FLA is only 18

[golftdibrad1]

So looking at units for my upcoming ac project.

Looking at getting this. No, actually 2, the big ones.
https://senville.com/48000-btu-quad-zon ... na-48hf-q/

First hiccup - I need to check my sub panel, I think its 80 amps and I'd need 90 - not to mention there are a few 110v loads on that panel too. But I can run one from the main panel if I have room / capacity so not a show stopper yet. But hot daym thats a lot of power to run when FLA is only 18

Checked, sub panel is 100 amp. has 2 15's and a 20 and a 60 on it now. The 60 will go down to 50 and add another 50; I think per the NEC I'm ok to do this, but I can pull one of the others if needed. The 2 split units are 18 amps @ 240 full load and have soft start inverters so the panel will literally never see 100 amps.

[MrH42]

Is this replacing another HVAC system?

[golftdibrad1]

Is this replacing another HVAC system?

RE: me? Yes. my 36 year old central ac on r-22 still runs with good delta p and vent temps.... but:
1. 36 YEARS OLD
2. parts NLA
3. 2 chineesum condenser fans in 3 years latest one on life support
4. 4.5 tons not really enough for our house, house was added onto after the fact. Our built in 1930 house, BTW. Not exactly airtight. And all the new rooms were 70% wall area of window.
5. Does not keep up in the summer
6. with 3 levels 1 central unit kinda sucks
7. new 410a systems are bigger, and with the upsizing we would need on top of that means extensive ductwork changes....to still have a hot top floor in all likelihood.
8. heat pumps make sense here 3-4 months out the year. I'll keep the central ducting and my gas furnace connected for backup / really cold times.

[MrH42]

36 year old, 4.5 ton system is wild.

How many sq ft is the house? Any single system trying to heat/cool 3 floors is going to be ugly. Good luck on the heat pump setup. Are you doing this work yourself?