golftdibrad1 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:28 am
cliffs?
I jumped around a bit, because ain't nobody got time for 90 minutes between those two. But here's what I gathered -
The idea that it's only the fastest drivers on sticky icky 200TW tires experiencing this issue is bunk. This guy (900BRZ) had never driven on track prior to owning his '22 BRZ, and is running an entirely stock car other than some camber and caster mods up front to help reduce tire wear. He was able to create these oil pressure drops before he hit his tenth track day, and probably only because he wasn't logging oil pressure earlier than that.
The current baffle plates on the market are all horizontal baffles and have shown limited improvement. What they think will help the most and likely solve the issue for most drivers is a pan with vertical baffles.
We can see examples of this in the two versions of Killer B's cast oil pans for the EJ. Here's their basic version (note the horizontal baffles) -
Versus their "Super G" oil pan, which uses vertical baffles -
The latter prevents oil from sloshing up the sides, front, or back of the oil pan during higher G driving, and both increase sump capacity from the factory 4.2 quarts to 6 quarts. That means it would take longer for the oil pump to drain the sump even if oil isn't draining back down into the pan during high G corners, and it prevents what oil is there from sloshing up and away from the pickup.
They're able to mitigate this issue by short shifting. It seems that with lower engine speed and thus lower oil pump speeds, the sump isn't draining as quickly and so the engine doesn't see these oil pressure drops. This would suggest that a combination of a larger sump (if there's room) and these vertical baffles should solve the issue for most cars.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:25 am
by fledonfoot
If anyone is interested, I have a set of 4 Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 tires in the 18" size available. Maybe all of 1500 highway cruising miles on them, 9/32" all around. Used them as "winters" for two months when I had the car. $600 shipped for the set. $500 local pickup in/around Philly.
golftdibrad1 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:28 am
cliffs?
I jumped around a bit, because ain't nobody got time for 90 minutes between those two. But here's what I gathered -
The idea that it's only the fastest drivers on sticky icky 200TW tires experiencing this issue is bunk. This guy (900BRZ) had never driven on track prior to owning his '22 BRZ, and is running an entirely stock car other than some camber and caster mods up front to help reduce tire wear. He was able to create these oil pressure drops before he hit his tenth track day, and probably only because he wasn't logging oil pressure earlier than that.
The current baffle plates on the market are all horizontal baffles and have shown limited improvement. What they think will help the most and likely solve the issue for most drivers is a pan with vertical baffles.
We can see examples of this in the two versions of Killer B's cast oil pans for the EJ. Here's their basic version (note the horizontal baffles) -
Versus their "Super G" oil pan, which uses vertical baffles -
The latter prevents oil from sloshing up the sides, front, or back of the oil pan during higher G driving, and both increase sump capacity from the factory 4.2 quarts to 6 quarts. That means it would take longer for the oil pump to drain the sump even if oil isn't draining back down into the pan during high G corners, and it prevents what oil is there from sloshing up and away from the pickup.
They're able to mitigate this issue by short shifting. It seems that with lower engine speed and thus lower oil pump speeds, the sump isn't draining as quickly and so the engine doesn't see these oil pressure drops. This would suggest that a combination of a larger sump (if there's room) and these vertical baffles should solve the issue for most cars.
nice cliffs thanks.
I'm .... FLABBERGASTED that people make and sell an oil pan with 'baffles' that are not vertical. Baffles in fluid sumps are understood to be vertical. I can't see anything that horizontal hot garbe is doing other than reducing sloshing and keeping oil out of the crank, but most engines come with some kind of windage tray/scraper these days for that issue.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:56 pm
by coogles
Cliffs are one of the guys doing the oil pressure testing is also a mechanical engineer and came up with a CAD design with his ideas, using a vertical baffle and a revised windage tray. He worked with Verus Engineering to refine the design and manufacture the prototype(s), which is being tested by this 900BRZ dude this weekend.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:30 am
by D Griff
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:51 pm
by coogles
Cliffs, the baffle failed and nuked the dude's engine. Verus covering the cost, but testing a baffle is off to a rather rough start.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:28 pm
by Desertbreh
coogles wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:51 pm
Cliffs, the baffle failed and nuked the dude's engine. Verus covering the cost, but testing a baffle is off to a rather rough start.
WOW
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:39 pm
by D Griff
At least maybe he's now making some of that YouTube money?
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:08 pm
by max225
coogles wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:51 pm
Cliffs, the baffle failed and nuked the dude's engine. Verus covering the cost, but testing a baffle is off to a rather rough start.
FAFO. Damn
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 12:22 am
by Desertbreh
What? The baffle literally failed, breaking off and blocking the oil intake. Should have hired Cale to fab that pan. So you design a baffle, but you fail to weld it properly to the pan? Retarded.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:42 am
by D Griff
Kind of makes you realize what Max always rants about, aftermarket brands versus ‘moron OEM engineers’, can have a lot of validity.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:54 am
by coogles
D Griff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:42 am
Kind of makes you realize what Max always rants about, aftermarket brands versus ‘moron OEM engineers’, can have a lot of validity.
There are certainly cases of this, but this was a one of one prototype out for its very first test. These things can happen.
D Griff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:42 am
Kind of makes you realize what Max always rants about, aftermarket brands versus ‘moron OEM engineers’, can have a lot of validity.
There are certainly cases of this, but this was a one of one prototype out for its very first test. These things can happen.
exactly.
Although all this fucking around with baffles....baffles me. its just not the answer here given the design of a boxer with its low placement in the vehicle. The accumulator or an oversize pan to cheat a couple three extra quarts into the engine is the clear answer.
GR86/BRZ (ZN8/ZD8) Thread - That new hotness
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:10 am
by coogles
golftdibrad1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:54 am
exactly.
Although all this fucking around with baffles....baffles me. its just not the answer here given the design of a boxer with its low placement in the vehicle. The accumulator or an oversize pan to cheat a couple three extra quarts into the engine is the clear answer.
I was reading through the comments and he even mentions that they think this is less of an oil control issue and more of an oil return issue. That theory is supported by the improvements being seeing from overfilling, but you're limited in the ability to do that due to cavitation risks. Hence...bigger pan. As said at the very end of the video, though, there isn't much room to do that given the placement of the OEM header, so it'd likely have to be a pan and header combination to grant the needed clearance. But yeah, if you could get the thing from 5 qts to 6.5 or something like that, it'd go a long way toward reducing or even eliminating this issue in most scenarios.
golftdibrad1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:54 am
exactly.
Although all this fucking around with baffles....baffles me. its just not the answer here given the design of a boxer with its low placement in the vehicle. The accumulator or an oversize pan to cheat a couple three extra quarts into the engine is the clear answer.
he even mentions that they think this is less of an oil control issue and more of an oil return issue.
exactly, this is ALWAYS an issue with flat engines. Its why all 911's (until recently, now its integrated or whatever, same idea) had dry sump systems. In sustained high gee corners the oil supplied to the heads will tend to stay in half of them. V-engines will still tend to drain oil from the heads. This is prob exacerbated if poor design allows the oil level at high gee on one side to cover or reverse flow INTO the drains of that bank's heads. A baffle might help that issue specifically, but the answer is really an accumulator.
D Griff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:42 am
Kind of makes you realize what Max always rants about, aftermarket brands versus ‘moron OEM engineers’, can have a lot of validity.
There are certainly cases of this, but this was a one of one prototype out for its very first test. These things can happen.
Oh yeah, I'm with you there, just acknowledging that these very small companies with minimal real R&D capabilities can be a little bit questionable on a mission critical component. Like this dude is a random end user volunteer and they blew up his car, that is pretty rough.
golftdibrad1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:54 am
exactly.
Although all this fucking around with baffles....baffles me. its just not the answer here given the design of a boxer with its low placement in the vehicle. The accumulator or an oversize pan to cheat a couple three extra quarts into the engine is the clear answer.
I was reading through the comments and he even mentions that they think this is less of an oil control issue and more of an oil return issue. That theory is supported by the improvements being seeing from overfilling, but you're limited in the ability to do that due to cavitation risks. Hence...bigger pan. As said at the very end of the video, though, there isn't much room to do that given the placement of the OEM header, so it'd likely have to be a pan and header combination to grant the needed clearance. But yeah, if you could get the thing from 5 qts to 6.5 or something like that, it'd go a long way toward reducing or even eliminating this issue in most scenarios.
I mean, better reliability and maybe some extra powah/soundz with header replacement? Count me in
D Griff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:42 am
Kind of makes you realize what Max always rants about, aftermarket brands versus ‘moron OEM engineers’, can have a lot of validity.
There are certainly cases of this, but this was a one of one prototype out for its very first test. These things can happen.
Yea no biggie. Just a popped motor and a 15-20k bill
