Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[Desertbreh]

Is the CT4-V better the m3 in any measurable way ?

Don’t really think of the mustang as a “sports car” maybe more on the muscle car side. Same with the challenger

The Blackwing looks a hell of a lot better than the M3, and the twin turbo V6 is a pretty neat engine.

The Dark Horse replaced the Mach 1 as Ford's track-focused Mustang.

It is a completely badass car.

[wap]

Add the Jag.

I just did. It’s really hard editing a list from a phone.


I was taking the kid for a walk… and there was a blue hype R in the show room at the local Honda dealer who wanted to charge me 42k otd for a 27k civic si back in 2022. The woman wanted me to go take a seat in it etc .. but I was with the CF and didn’t want to deal with sales holes and all that… is this a sign ! ?

...that you've outgrown ?

[max225]

I just did. It’s really hard editing a list from a phone.


I was taking the kid for a walk… and there was a blue hype R in the show room at the local Honda dealer who wanted to charge me 42k otd for a 27k civic si back in 2022. The woman wanted me to go take a seat in it etc .. but I was with the CF and didn’t want to deal with sales holes and all that… is this a sign ! ?

...that you've outgrown ?

I was thinking that I need to get it … it’s been 3 months and I have been buying a new car every 3 months since last July

[Huckleberry]

The Blackwing looks a hell of a lot better than the M3, and the twin turbo V6 is a pretty neat engine.

The Dark Horse replaced the Mach 1 as Ford's track-focused Mustang.

TT from GM which is completely unproven or the gold standard I6… eh. Looks are subjective Cadillac is by no means bad looking but I prefer the bmws. But I’m biased as it’s my fav brand



Vs dark horse like it’s standing still

The LF4 has been around since 2016. It's the same engine that was in the ATS-V. I would hardly call it unproven.

As for the drag race, it is a difference of .3 seconds. But if a losing in a drag race on a YouTube video is a part of your criteria, then it looks like you can eliminate the Lotus from consideration, as well.

[SAWCE]

...that you've outgrown ?

I was thinking that I need to get it … it’s been 3 months and I have been buying a new car every 3 months since last July

[max225]

TT from GM which is completely unproven or the gold standard I6… eh. Looks are subjective Cadillac is by no means bad looking but I prefer the bmws. But I’m biased as it’s my fav brand



Vs dark horse like it’s standing still

The LF4 has been around since 2016. It's the same engine that was in the ATS-V. I would hardly call it unproven.

As for the drag race, it is a difference of .3 seconds. But if a losing in a drag race on a YouTube video is a part of your criteria, then it looks like you can eliminate the Lotus from consideration, as well.

What measurable attribute is better in the dark horse?
It’s heavier, slower, far bigger, worse interior and materials and worse looking (subjective) from a poverty brand vs a luxury brand and it costs the same or more.

Which reminds me there is a z car as well… also completely pointless as the m2 exists and is better in every way for the same price

[Huckleberry]

The LF4 has been around since 2016. It's the same engine that was in the ATS-V. I would hardly call it unproven.

As for the drag race, it is a difference of .3 seconds. But if a losing in a drag race on a YouTube video is a part of your criteria, then it looks like you can eliminate the Lotus from consideration, as well.

What measurable attribute is better in the dark horse?
It’s heavier, slower, far bigger, worse interior and materials and worse looking (subjective) from a poverty brand vs a luxury brand and it costs the same or more.

Which reminds me there is a z car as well… also completely pointless as the m2 exists and is better in every way for the same price

It sounds like you have already made up your mind and should just buy an M2.

[Desertbreh]

If I was in the market for a Dark Horse I think I would just get a barely used Mach 1 in a cool color scheme. But then I would say, "why am I buying a Mustang?"........and go used GT500 shopping.

[Desertbreh]

What measurable attribute is better in the dark horse?
It’s heavier, slower, far bigger, worse interior and materials and worse looking (subjective) from a poverty brand vs a luxury brand and it costs the same or more.

Which reminds me there is a z car as well… also completely pointless as the m2 exists and is better in every way for the same price

It sounds like you have already made up your mind and should just buy an M2.

Agreed.

[max225]

What measurable attribute is better in the dark horse?
It’s heavier, slower, far bigger, worse interior and materials and worse looking (subjective) from a poverty brand vs a luxury brand and it costs the same or more.

Which reminds me there is a z car as well… also completely pointless as the m2 exists and is better in every way for the same price

It sounds like you have already made up your mind and should just buy an M2.

I asked you a question

[max225]

If I was in the market for a Dark Horse I think I would just get a barely used Mach 1 in a cool color scheme. But then I would say, "why am I buying a Mustang?"........and go used GT500 shopping.

Ew

[Desertbreh]

If I was in the market for a Dark Horse I think I would just get a barely used Mach 1 in a cool color scheme. But then I would say, "why am I buying a Mustang?"........and go used GT500 shopping.

Ew

You are just a snob now. It's an obnoxious muscle car. Better than a Challenger.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500

[max225]

Ew

You are just a snob now. It's an obnoxious muscle car. Better than a Challenger.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500

I just feel like mustangs have a price point. And that price point is well below 60k.

It’s not a rich man’s car and I hate that ford is trying to take it there. It’s not about being a snob it’s about being annoyed that everyman sports cars are taken to super car pricing.

Just like a 90k brz/frs. The fuck is the point ? They need to be accessible to everyone. Not just the super rich. Call me a communist

[CaleDeRoo]

Ford continues to offer an affordable Mustang. Why aren't they allowed to offer enthusiasts a model with 760hp and DCT for EIGHTY THOUSAND DOLLARS? The GT500 is badass and would be an absolute riot to own.

[Huckleberry]

It sounds like you have already made up your mind and should just buy an M2.

I asked you a question

You did, but you didn't. This started because you asked about other cars for consideration, and you immediately dismissed both of my suggestions with "The BMW is better." There is nothing I could say that would change your mind. You're just looking for more points to refute so you can reaffirm your bias.

Based on your points for dismissing the Mustang, you need to eliminate the GR86, Miata, Type R, and Emira from your list because the M2 is faster. You must eliminate the C8 because it is going to suffer from the same interior material complaints and is from a poverty brand. That leaves you with the P cars and the Bimmers, and the P cars have the P car tax with similar performance as the Bimmers.

So, flip your coin and buy an M.

[Huckleberry]

If I was in the market for a Dark Horse I think I would just get a barely used Mach 1 in a cool color scheme. But then I would say, "why am I buying a Mustang?"........and go used GT500 shopping.

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

[max225]

I asked you a question

You did, but you didn't. This started because you asked about other cars for consideration, and you immediately dismissed both of my suggestions with "The BMW is better." There is nothing I could say that would change your mind. You're just looking for more points to refute so you can reaffirm your bias.

Based on your points for dismissing the Mustang, you need to eliminate the GR86, Miata, Type R, and Emira from your list because the M2 is faster. You must eliminate the C8 because it is going to suffer from the same interior material complaints and is from a poverty brand. That leaves you with the P cars and the Bimmers, and the P cars have the P car tax with similar performance as the Bimmers.

So, flip your coin and buy an M.

Nah. Those cars are significantly cheaper (hype r and 86). One can’t ignore the fact that the 86 is like 33k it’s simply unheard of nowadays.

With regards to the mustang I think my point was mainly around what I said earlier. I don’t see it as anything that punches above 50k. It needs to be an Everyman muscle car. And it’s completely overpriced for what it is. The car is nearly unchanged from 2014. And I don’t see it playing with an m2 in that price bracket. I liked the prior high revving gt350 at 46k, the original msrp, much less at 61k where it ended. It still made more sense than the new dark horse considering that motor is no where near as special.

Emira is super exotic and mid engine. Those are major selling points.

[max225]

Butttt the counter point is a GT premium at 51k. Which is a far more compelling price point

[Melon2.0]

If I was in the market for a Dark Horse I think I would just get a barely used Mach 1 in a cool color scheme. But then I would say, "why am I buying a Mustang?"........and go used GT500 shopping.

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

I like the Mach 1 more than the 1LE, but it was nearly $10k more than the Bromaro, so I went the route.

[MrH42]

The C8 should look better than it does. There is some Pontiac Grand Am Plastic genome in that thing. Also I wouldn't own one for a week without tossing the square tipped exhaust and installing BROLA.

Yep the square exhaust has to go. Easy enough fix. And the auto tragic only is also a bit as well as the weird interior layout...

Meanwhile a decent Carrera T that sounds like a blender is $135k which is completely unreasonable IMO. And a GT3 is 210k + several Monaco vacations for the mistress and her pool buy.

So one car is too expensive and the other is just... not that desirable.

I keep coming back to a M2 or a GT86. The GT86 at 33k is just an absolute steal IMO. even with a performance pack with sachs dampers and bremBROs you're still only out 34.7k. I love the M2 styling (shoot me) and the performance seems great... but 4k lbs and almost 70k after tax seems for something that well off high school students drive.

I'm having a hard time with 911 pricing too. Carrera T or a Z06? That seems like two totally different categories of car for the same price. I agree on the 86 though. For $31k, there isn't a better, hassle free 2nd car to keep around. I'd love to get something wilder, but it's not worth the extra $50k to jump to the next level.

[MrH42]

Z4 with a manual is a really, really good suggestion IMO. Jimmy Jam wins. Better looking than the Supra and M2. Convertible. Probably the best looking BMW offered currently? Will be really rare in the right spec and will fight off the depreciation demons for a long time.

[Gberg2119]

Z4 with a manual is a really, really good suggestion IMO. Jimmy Jam wins. Better looking than the Supra and M2. Convertible. Probably the best looking BMW offered currently? Will be really rare in the right spec and will fight off the depreciation demons for a long time.

70k for a B58 in the Z4 or 70k for the S58 in the M2.

Cost to run would be less but it’s not like Max piles on miles before anyway. I think the M2 is the better option.

[max225]

Z4 with a manual is a really, really good suggestion IMO. Jimmy Jam wins. Better looking than the Supra and M2. Convertible. Probably the best looking BMW offered currently? Will be really rare in the right spec and will fight off the depreciation demons for a long time.

70k for a B58 in the Z4 or 70k for the S58 in the M2.

Cost to run would be less but it’s not like Max piles on miles before anyway. I think the M2 is the better option.

I actually drive a lot. 15k miles a year or so… but they are going on the IX. I have no interest in treating a sports car as a DD whatsoever. That’s not a good use case imo. If I wanted a “sports car dd” I’d probably get a golf R or maybe even a gti.

Probs 3-6k miles a year tops for a sports car seems reasonable to me, anything over that you’re in the wrong vehicle imo, unless you enjoy compromises

[max225]

Z4 with a manual is a really, really good suggestion IMO. Jimmy Jam wins. Better looking than the Supra and M2. Convertible. Probably the best looking BMW offered currently? Will be really rare in the right spec and will fight off the depreciation demons for a long time.

Looks are subjective but I’d say a z4 is somewhere in line with a Supra and maybe a bit better looking but I truly love the m2 styling. I think it’s better looking than anything short of Porsches which are timeless. But the Z4 doesn’t have a rear seat… and about as practical as a Miata … but the tops down aspect is fun. I test drove the crap out of one during a drive event with bmw and it was a great vehicle.

[CaleDeRoo]

I find the Mach 1 intriguing, but I think I would go for the GT350.

I like the Mach 1 more than the 1LE, but it was nearly $10k more than the Bromaro, so I went the route.

Yeah I hate to say it, but the Mach 1 is so hot, and IMO was a better execution than the Dark Horse. The number of Mach 1s at Grid Life last year, both stock and extremely modified with huge aero and full cages was crazy. Numbers on par with C5s, M3s, and Supras.