MrH42 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:51 pm
Valkyrie wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:22 pm
I could write volumes on all of this, but volumes have already been written by folks who have put a lot more into the subjects and y'all want to ignore them and start from first principles as if YOU are the world's foremost experts on everything... so I'm going to stick to the question already asked and not answered:
If all humans fall neatly into a purely binary sex determined at conception, then how do you classify individuals conceived with various known intersex conditions? Are they male? Female? Some of each depending on certain factors (if so, please explain those factors)?
Yes they're rare. Are they male or female? The only other option is that you think they're not human, perhaps that's it?
I'll discuss the rest when you actually answer that.
I want to hear your explanation of it. I don't feel like my questions are that unusual. I see a lot of logical incongruities in the basics of it that I can't seem to figure out. If you'd prefer to point to someone who has written about it that you feel explains it better than you can, by all means, point me in that direction. I have not found anything that answers the questions I asked.
Why are your questions a prerequisite to discussing non-intersex related transgenderism? Intersex has nothing to do with the vast majority of transgender individuals (yourself included I might be incorrectly assuming?). If you want me to agree that intersex individuals don't fit the sex binary, that's fine. Let's exclude them from the discussion all together. Do you agree non-intersex individuals fall within a biological sex binary?
There are a lot of things going on at once, some of which are related to each other, so it's all complicated.
First off, none of this has anything to do with sexuality/orientation/bedroomstuff and I don't know why folks keep bringing it up. Perhaps because the word 'sex' has multiple meanings? Whatever the reason, that is another subject entirely.
I'm frankly amazed that you guys seem to think that you have everything all perfectly understood and know what's best for everyone. I am far from certain on any of this. You either know a lot more than I do or are unwilling to consider that your understanding is incomplete. To paraphrase your old pal Socrates, I know enough to know that I don't know much.
I bring up intersex because it's an umbrella term and there exist individuals that I believe we would all agree are intersex - not fitting entirely into either male or female. Excluding them from the discussion is the exact opposite of where I'd like to go. There are in fact humans who are not entirely male or female, this is important to acknowledge. Non-binary folks exist.
Now some fun stuff, sex vs gender:
Speaking largely for myself, but as I've noted before the idea of making a distinction between the two is not some radical idea. Read the first paragraph and follow citations 6 through 14 for some more detailed examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80 ... istinction
(It's not important to go through them in detail but to acknowledge that the work exists. Your view is not common in the scientific community and, to my knowledge, you have presented no evidence in support of it.)
I think that the distinction between sex and gender largely comes down to biology (sex, male/female) vs behavior (gender, man/woman, boy/girl). I believe that this distinction is a necessary bridge to accommodate our limited understanding of biology and our still primitive society.
For most people most of the time, only gender is relevant to life. Sex matters for some doctors some of the time and their patients at those times. Otherwise gender is how we think of and interact with ourselves and others.
On the "primitive society" part: While there is movement toward loosening the role of gender in society (women can vote in this country, that's nice - still only men can get drafted into the military though?), the fact is that we still have a ton of built up norms/stereotypes associated with gender. People absolutely think of girl and boy stuff starting from a very young age and it doesn't really go away, not entirely. We still have M/F on most of our documents and split people up according to gender in all sorts of everyday situations.
At some point we will hopefully free ourselves enough from those ideas that the general collection of behaviors that we now think of as gender will be accepted in any combination in individuals from any sex - i.e. anyone can be a girl in the same way that anyone can be a nerd. Gender will be a convenient shorthand for a spectrum of general behaviors that some people will identify with more strongly than others which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sex.
Gender is important to me personally because it is important to almost everyone else I ever interact with in this world. It's a tool that works for now. It's often necessary (and always convenient) in society to fit into either the man or woman category and I happen to fit quite neatly into the woman category. It's a multi-dimensional spectrum, but I am in the far corner of it.
Going back to "our limited understanding of biology" - this is when we finally get into the concept of trans people:
Remember when we agreed that biological sex is not entirely binary? That was an important point.
Even among "normal" (XX or XY) individuals, there are countless sex characteristics determined by not only genetic but also hormonal and environmental factors. Expression of each has its own spectrum and there absolutely are XY individuals who are closer to the average XX than the average XY and vice versa. There are also our friends with known intersex conditions who fall somewhere in that mix.
I suspect that we will eventually determine that what we call "gender identity" is also determined biologically, even though it is not yet understood. There is evidence to support that notion:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
I expect there to one day be what we would call a "trans test" now, though I hope that it is not labeled as such by then. I expect that "biological sex" will eventually expand beyond the 2 box paradigm to include those sorts of factors. How we might label and categorize any of the resulting groups, I don't know.
What I do know is that we need language and policies that work today. Is any of it perfect? No. Neither is forcing people who are different to suffer in silence or, worse yet, punish them for existing.
What I also know is that it costs nothing to address people as they ask you to address them and to treat them based on their behavior rather than what's in their genes/jeans.
What I also know is that health outcomes are generally better for individuals who ARE taught about these things and receive gender-affirming care (No, we're not talking about surgery. Stop jumping to that conclusion). Trans kids with support become trans adults, trans kids without support become memories. It's not much different for adults. Knowledge is power and inclusion is important.
when ye olde Val would drop n-bombs everywhere? 
with the racism accusations. The word was used to describe exactly one person (myself) ever, and only as a demonstration of the belief that words should not be banned.
Hopefully something fun like wineries or the like.
