OT 21: DFD Giveth and DFD Taketh Away

[MrH42]

I think you're coming at this from a completely different perspective though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears you think the concept of gender is a completely fluid, abstract thing that is independent of biological sex? And that this is objective fact and settled? Is that right? Just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

I think that's where a large portion of the population disagrees. I don't think the basics of gender ideology hold up to basic deductive reasoning. That's not to say that gender dysphoria doesn't exist, and transgender people aren't a real thing. It very much is, and I think the vast majority of people don't care what adults do in their personal lives. The issue is trying to push these ideas on kids, that's what is causing the massive cultural backlash now.

It's far from settled/explained, but that's the consensus of every reputable professional community studying the topic.

Your opinion is currently the one being pushed on kids. Where is your research? What makes it OK for your view to be pushed instead?

Mine holds up to basic Socratic reasoning and logic. I don’t believe yours does.

[golftdibrad1]

This is akin to the fox advocating for the chicken fence to be removed, and being surprised all the chickens got eaten the next morning.

I also am not going to go down a research rabbithole for something I know to be immoral, and no I don't feel the need to cite my sources. Just look at the breakdown of the general population; we should cater general society to the vast majority of people not the 5%.

Right, you're only here to put people down and have no need to actually support your own claims.

Less than 5% of people in this country are a lot of things. Jews for example. Blind. Wheelchair-bound. Autistic. Native Americans. Millionaires.

Fuck it, let's pretend that none of them exist.

Is the strawman & appeal to authority the only arguments you poses?

If you want to talk about specific policies, I can give you my thoughts on it, but it's pointless if you're just going to assume the worst about people that disagree with you.

And that's where I'm at with this discussion.


when ye olde Val would drop n-bombs everywhere? being racist af? I

And now that she is in a protected class wants us all to get on board and sing kumbaya.

[Valkyrie]

It's far from settled/explained, but that's the consensus of every reputable professional community studying the topic.

Your opinion is currently the one being pushed on kids. Where is your research? What makes it OK for your view to be pushed instead?

Mine holds up to basic Socratic reasoning and logic. I don’t believe yours does.

Biology and psychology have advanced a little bit since the bronze age.

[Valkyrie]

Right, you're only here to put people down and have no need to actually support your own claims.

Less than 5% of people in this country are a lot of things. Jews for example. Blind. Wheelchair-bound. Autistic. Native Americans. Millionaires.

Fuck it, let's pretend that none of them exist.

Is the strawman & appeal to authority the only arguments you poses?

If you want to talk about specific policies, I can give you my thoughts on it, but it's pointless if you're just going to assume the worst about people that disagree with you.

And that's where I'm at with this discussion.


when ye olde Val would drop n-bombs everywhere? being racist af? I

And now that she is in a protected class wants us all to get on board and sing kumbaya.

Remember when I was a strong advocate for freedom of speech? Now I'm advocating for... the exact same thing.

with the racism accusations. The word was used to describe exactly one person (myself) ever, and only as a demonstration of the belief that words should not be banned.

[coogles]

Mine holds up to basic Socratic reasoning and logic. I don’t believe yours does.

Biology and psychology have advanced a little bit since the bronze age.

That's the thing. Biology doesn't really change unless we're talking REALLY long periods of time. It certainly hasn't changed over the course of time people have begun really having more open dialogue about transgender people.

[Valkyrie]

The underlying systems haven't changed, but our understanding of them has... the same as in most sciences.

We can do better than Socrates to explain human biology.

[golftdibrad1]

[Valkyrie]

Says the guy who goes off on some crazy tangent about surgeries because he saw a word he didn't like on a website.

[MrH42]

Mine holds up to basic Socratic reasoning and logic. I don’t believe yours does.

Biology and psychology have advanced a little bit since the bronze age.

I don’t think you are getting my point, but I haven’t really outlined it.

I don’t mean for this to be disrespectful, so please don’t take it that way, but this is where the gender theory activists lose a lot of people. You said earlier that you are a woman. That simply isn’t true. You might feel feminine, or want others to perceive and treat you as a women, but that statement is false. Your perception of yourself is not aligned with objective reality. The gender theory movement pushes to affirm the perception of the individual over the objective truth.

This is the dangerous concept to teach kids. The affirmation of perception over reality, and the ways to treat this misalignment is really the heart of the culture war.

I’m totally sympathetic to what you deal with. It sounds incredibly difficult and I feel for you. At the same time, I am not willing to join in the rejection of reality. I don’t believe that’s helpful to anyone and is a dangerous cultural shift.

Most of society will politely go along and agree, but telling people what they want to hear while secretly disagreeing is a bad precedent to set. I feel most of society is doing this with the transgender topic. People would rather be polite than be unfairly cast as a bigot. This is very nuanced and can be taken the wrong way. However, I think the majority of people would agree with what I’m saying, but only in private. I think the tide is turning here and that’s why there’s so much backlash going on.

Hopefully this gives some insight on some of the reaction to the transgender movement.

[Valkyrie]

There's the quiet part.

Does this "affirmation of perception over reality is dangerous" idea also apply to religion, or is taking kids to church somehow OK?

'Gender is distinct from sex' has more supporting evidence than 'God exists.'

[MrH42]

There's the quiet part.

Does this "affirmation of perception over reality is dangerous" idea also apply to religion, or is taking kids to church somehow OK?

'Gender is distinct from sex' has more supporting evidence than 'God exists.'

You're right, this is all much, much closer to religion than science. Religion isn't taught in public schools either. And I don't think we should ban businesses from pushing their religious views constantly, I just don't think it's smart to do it. Parents can teach their kids their views on gender and religion. Just don't bring it into public, tax payer funded institutions.

Now you're catching on. If you put this in the context of religion, all of a sudden, you agree with us across the board it looks like?

[Valkyrie]

Churches -are- funded by taxpayers...

but it's good to know that you think religion is dangerous for children to be taught.

As for our fundamental disagreement, I'm going to stick with 21st century science over bronze age philosophy. I'd love to see your supposed proof sometime though, that would be interesting.

[MrH42]

Churches -are- funded by taxpayers...

but it's good to know that you think religion is dangerous for children to be taught.

As for our fundamental disagreement, I'm going to stick with 21st century science over bronze age philosophy. I'd love to see your supposed proof sometime though, that would be interesting.

No, churches do not receive federal funds.

You didn't really address anything I said though. You just compared it to religion, and surprise, my stance is consistent in terms of policy in regards to both.

There are some very basic fundamental flaws with the logic of the gender ideology activists. You don't seem to want to discuss that though?

[razr390]

What is a woman?

[Valkyrie]

Tax breaks are not effectively different from direct funding. Slightly more efficient, but either way they're receiving funds.

I'm totally down to discuss why you think that I'm not only delusional but objectively wrong and that the related professional/scientific/academic communities are all wrong too. They've published actual materials, some of which I shared earlier. You have provided only an unsupported assertion. Prove it.

[Valkyrie]

What is a woman?

Your mom.

[razr390]

You can’t say traditional gender norms are outdated and/or artificially segregated by society and then claim that you identify with the traits and characteristics of said gender ideology (woman).

It sort of defeats the purpose does it not? If we believe gender is fluid and gender norms shouldn’t exist, then we wouldn’t have so many people claiming to be the other gender and advocating for respect/equal treatment while identifying as such.

I understand that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and it is most likely neurological/biological/etc just like a lot of other conditions might be borne from.

But, we must be careful of identity bias (all of us). Just because we are hetero-/straight doesn’t mean everyone is or has to be. But likewise, the recent strides in LGBTQ+ movements seem to be that with new momentum comes expectation to show everyone that they too should explore and/or do it.

Val, I believe 100% what you are going through on a personal level, and I sympathize (I cannot empathize as I have not been in the same scenario myself). But the exceptions do not often make the rules and just like you came to your own enlightening we should allow people to do it themselves. In pre-pubescent formative years we should let children become “people” first, before they have to worry about exploring their gender and/or sexuality and where they land in that spectrum.

[MrH42]

What is a woman?

This is a silly, but incredibly simple way to show the absurdity of it all. It doesn't make any sense, and it won't until these basic things aren't answered.

Tax breaks are not effectively different from direct funding. Slightly more efficient, but either way they're receiving funds.

I'm totally down to discuss why you think that I'm not only delusional but objectively wrong and that the related professional/scientific/academic communities are all wrong too. They've published actual materials, some of which I shared earlier. You have provided only an unsupported assertion. Prove it.

Tax breaks are not direct funding. Lessening the money paid in is not the same as giving them money. To say it's the same implies the money is the government's to begin with, which is not true.

I mean, if you want to discuss, I think the question "what is a woman?" is a good place to start. If anyone can be a man or woman if they claim in their mind they are, what are they claiming to be exactly?

[Valkyrie]

You claimed to have proof of your assertion. Please provide it.

[MrH42]

You can’t say traditional gender norms are outdated and/or artificially segregated by society and then claim that you identify with the traits and characteristics of said gender ideology (woman).

It sort of defeats the purpose does it not? If we believe gender is fluid and gender norms shouldn’t exist, then we wouldn’t have so many people claiming to be the other gender and advocating for respect/equal treatment while identifying as such.

I understand that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and it is most likely neurological/biological/etc just like a lot of other conditions might be borne from.

But, we must be careful of identity bias (all of us). Just because we are hetero-/straight doesn’t mean everyone is or has to be. But likewise, the recent strides in LGBTQ+ movements seem to be that with new momentum comes expectation to show everyone that they too should explore and/or do it.

Val, I believe 100% what you are going through on a personal level, and I sympathize (I cannot empathize as I have not been in the same scenario myself). But the exceptions do not often make the rules and just like you came to your own enlightening we should allow people to do it themselves. In pre-pubescent formative years we should let children become “people” first, before they have to worry about exploring their gender and/or sexuality and where they land in that spectrum.

If anything, the gender ideology push further solidifies gender norms. It's the opposite of accepting the individual for who they are. If you're a male that likes fashion, makeup, and baking, now you might be the wrong sex, as opposed to just accepting them as a male that's unique.

[razr390]

You can’t say traditional gender norms are outdated and/or artificially segregated by society and then claim that you identify with the traits and characteristics of said gender ideology (woman).

It sort of defeats the purpose does it not? If we believe gender is fluid and gender norms shouldn’t exist, then we wouldn’t have so many people claiming to be the other gender and advocating for respect/equal treatment while identifying as such.

I understand that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and it is most likely neurological/biological/etc just like a lot of other conditions might be borne from.

But, we must be careful of identity bias (all of us). Just because we are hetero-/straight doesn’t mean everyone is or has to be. But likewise, the recent strides in LGBTQ+ movements seem to be that with new momentum comes expectation to show everyone that they too should explore and/or do it.

Val, I believe 100% what you are going through on a personal level, and I sympathize (I cannot empathize as I have not been in the same scenario myself). But the exceptions do not often make the rules and just like you came to your own enlightening we should allow people to do it themselves. In pre-pubescent formative years we should let children become “people” first, before they have to worry about exploring their gender and/or sexuality and where they land in that spectrum.

If anything, the gender ideology push further solidifies gender norms. It's the opposite of accepting the individual for who they are. If you're a male that likes fashion, makeup, and baking, now you might be the wrong sex, as opposed to just accepting them as a male that's unique.

100%

[MrH42]

You claimed to have proof of your assertion. Please provide it.

Answer the question: what is a woman? If you aren't willing to even define these basic things, then how are we supposed to have a discussion about it?

[Valkyrie]

You claimed to have proof of your assertion. Please provide it.

Answer the question: what is a woman? If you aren't willing to even define these basic things, then how are we supposed to have a discussion about it?

Enough with this answering questions with questions crap.

The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claims. You claim that my doctors, the US government, the MI government, the FL government, and I am wrong about myself specifically and that every reputable scientific group with anything published recently on gender is wrong in general.

Prove it.

Show me the basic "Socratic" reasoning. (I assume you meant Aristotle - you know, the guy who actually wrote extensively on logic, but who the hell knows with you people. Fun fact: Aristotle also wrote that all matter in the universe is composed of 5 elements.)

[MrH42]

Answer the question: what is a woman? If you aren't willing to even define these basic things, then how are we supposed to have a discussion about it?

Enough with this answering questions with questions crap.

The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claims. You claim that my doctors, the US government, the MI government, the FL government, and I am wrong about myself specifically and that every reputable scientific group with anything published recently on gender is wrong in general.

Prove it.

Show me the basic "Socratic" reasoning. (I assume you meant Aristotle - you know, the guy who actually wrote extensively on logic, but who the hell knows with you people. Fun fact: Aristotle also wrote that all matter in the universe is composed of 5 elements.)

Where did I make those claims? Quote it.

Again, this only works if we're operating in good faith. It doesn't appear you are. You make a whole lot of arguments against things I haven't said, but conveniently fail to address things I do bring up.

[Valkyrie]

I don't think the basics of gender ideology hold up to basic deductive reasoning.

Mine holds up to basic Socratic reasoning and logic. I don’t believe yours does.

You said earlier that you are a woman. That simply isn’t true. You might feel feminine, or want others to perceive and treat you as a women, but that statement is false.

this is all much, much closer to religion than science.

Here you go.

According to my doctors, the US government (social security and passport), the MI government (birth certificate), the FL government (driver's license), and every reputable relevant organization (APA, AAP being the biggest ones) I am a woman.

According to you, I am not - and, further, all of those professionals are not operating within objective reality and the whole world would be better off to just let you make the rules for them instead.

Show your work. Prove everyone wrong.