Car Talk 6: Best of times and Worst of Times

[Desertbreh]

Outside of Portland, if you are not a professional or a defense contractor or a fisherman with your shit together, there is no $$$$$$

Yea even portland proper seems reasonable enough... This thing is about the same thing paid in FLO-RIDA

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/49-E ... 4068_zpid/

Its reasonable enough because Portland is on the 44th Parallel. That would likely make things very homey for you but make preparations for jettisoning 54% of your marital assets.

[D Griff]

Hmm I always thought that Maine was OG 'old money'. Just did some browsing and its cheap af
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/464- ... 9114_zpid/

That place is the middle of nowhere. The house I posted in the OT thread meanwhile is estimated at $1.5-2mil

One thing that was interesting with coastal Maine, you have one main road (US 1) and everything is far as hell because all of those peninsulas/islands require driving all the way up/down and in/out to get anywhere. So if you aren't on the water or right in a town it is kind of isolated. It looks like the prices vary hugely based on location because of that, which makes sense.

That said, you could make huge money on airBNB there based on the property prices. Any two bedroom airBNB within 45 minutes of Bar Harbor/Acadia was MINIMUM $400/night and most were much closer to $1K.

[Desertbreh]

That place is the middle of nowhere. The house I posted in the OT thread meanwhile is estimated at $1.5-2mil

One thing that was interesting with coastal Maine, you have one main road (US 1) and everything is far as hell because all of those peninsulas/islands require driving all the way up/down and in/out to get anywhere. So if you aren't on the water or right in a town it is kind of isolated. It looks like the prices vary hugely based on location because of that, which makes sense.

That said, you could make huge money on airBNB there based on the property prices. Any two bedroom airBNB within 45 minutes of Bar Harbor/Acadia was MINIMUM $400/night and most were much closer to $1K.

Ok, Maine is not $1K/nt great.

[CaleDeRoo]

One thing that was interesting with coastal Maine, you have one main road (US 1) and everything is far as hell because all of those peninsulas/islands require driving all the way up/down and in/out to get anywhere. So if you aren't on the water or right in a town it is kind of isolated. It looks like the prices vary hugely based on location because of that, which makes sense.

That said, you could make huge money on airBNB there based on the property prices. Any two bedroom airBNB within 45 minutes of Bar Harbor/Acadia was MINIMUM $400/night and most were much closer to $1K.

Ok, Maine is not $1K/nt great.

Could get a condo in Mexico for that

[D Griff]

One thing that was interesting with coastal Maine, you have one main road (US 1) and everything is far as hell because all of those peninsulas/islands require driving all the way up/down and in/out to get anywhere. So if you aren't on the water or right in a town it is kind of isolated. It looks like the prices vary hugely based on location because of that, which makes sense.

That said, you could make huge money on airBNB there based on the property prices. Any two bedroom airBNB within 45 minutes of Bar Harbor/Acadia was MINIMUM $400/night and most were much closer to $1K.

Ok, Maine is not $1K/nt great.

Well we got the $400 one and that was split with another couple so not bad. But it was the cheapest thing we could find in the Acadia area and still 40ish minutes from the park and Bar Harbor. Peak season of peak 2022 and only booked six weeks out, so it may have been an anomaly. It was brutal finding lodging though.

[max225]

Ok, Maine is not $1K/nt great.

Well we got the $400 one and that was split with another couple so not bad. But it was the cheapest thing we could find in the Acadia area and still 40ish minutes from the park and Bar Harbor. Peak season of peak 2022 and only booked six weeks out, so it may have been an anomaly. It was brutal finding lodging though.

This is ridiculous.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Same thing happened here. "Investors" started buying any property at any price to turn into short term rentals. They've been overpaying and applying that overpayment directly to rental prices. You can't rent a place for under $500/night here because thats their cost basis. STR used to be cheaper than hotels and made sense, but now, hotels are relatively affordable by comparison and there's tons of openings now.

I think there's going to be a real estate crash in areas like mine and Portland, and any other vacation spot that got targeted for STR heavily. People will be losing their asses soon if they haven't already. Kind of like car dealers, they keep raising prices in response to low demand (which makes zero economic sense), but they're forced to in attempt to survive. I'm genuinely hoping for an STR melt-down.

Tourism has been down here this year, which has been a nice change of pace. Restaurants still can't hire people because all affordable housing goes straight to these STR investment dicks, so less demand has made going out nicer. People are starting to realize that places like Portland, ME and Traverse City, MI are not worth $4-500/night min.

[Johnny_P]

$300-500 a night seems to be the typical rate for an Airbnb / VRBO type place that’s actually worth staying at. We use these types of places almost exclusively now because of the dog and the toddler.

Hotels are half price yeah but I typically need at least one separated bedroom which a hotel doesn’t usually have.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

$300-500 a night seems to be the typical rate for an Airbnb / VRBO type place that’s actually worth staying at. We use these types of places almost exclusively now because of the dog and the toddler.

Hotels are half price yeah but I typically need at least one separated bedroom which a hotel doesn’t usually have.

STR makes sense in some cases, just like this. I just couldn't justify that kind of cost to visit areas like Portland, ME and Traverse City, MI where there's nothing really outside of nature.

When we first started coming to TC about 10 years ago, hotels were insane, but STR was extremely reasonable. We found one dude renting out his mother-in-law suite for $50/night. We stayed there once a month every year until 2016 when he got a girlfriend and needed the room. We found a few other similar places that were great, and allowed us a cheap place to stay to get outside. Just weird how things have flipped now, or rather, hotel prices haven't really gone up much, but STRs have gone INSANE. There's plenty of availability, so it's not like demand is nuts, these people are just delusional and ruining our area in the process.

[D Griff]

Same thing happened here. "Investors" started buying any property at any price to turn into short term rentals. They've been overpaying and applying that overpayment directly to rental prices. You can't rent a place for under $500/night here because thats their cost basis. STR used to be cheaper than hotels and made sense, but now, hotels are relatively affordable by comparison and there's tons of openings now.

I think there's going to be a real estate crash in areas like mine and Portland, and any other vacation spot that got targeted for STR heavily. People will be losing their asses soon if they haven't already. Kind of like car dealers, they keep raising prices in response to low demand (which makes zero economic sense), but they're forced to in attempt to survive. I'm genuinely hoping for an STR melt-down.

Tourism has been down here this year, which has been a nice change of pace. Restaurants still can't hire people because all affordable housing goes straight to these STR investment dicks, so less demand has made going out nicer. People are starting to realize that places like Portland, ME and Traverse City, MI are not worth $4-500/night min.

All , fuck airBNB 'investors'. Like, I'm all about it if you have a garage apartment or something on your property and want to make extra money, but 'investing' in it can really fuck up local economies.

I do like them for times like Johnny mentioned - when you have a group or something it's cool to have a living area to chill in and individual bedrooms for couples. We have stayed at places like Home2 Suites and TownePlace and whatnot where you get a larger room with a kitchenette and stuff when it's just us and the dog, which also work out quite well and are now cheaper.

[Tar]

Same thing happened here. "Investors" started buying any property at any price to turn into short term rentals. They've been overpaying and applying that overpayment directly to rental prices. You can't rent a place for under $500/night here because thats their cost basis. STR used to be cheaper than hotels and made sense, but now, hotels are relatively affordable by comparison and there's tons of openings now.

I think there's going to be a real estate crash in areas like mine and Portland, and any other vacation spot that got targeted for STR heavily. People will be losing their asses soon if they haven't already. Kind of like car dealers, they keep raising prices in response to low demand (which makes zero economic sense), but they're forced to in attempt to survive. I'm genuinely hoping for an STR melt-down.

Tourism has been down here this year, which has been a nice change of pace. Restaurants still can't hire people because all affordable housing goes straight to these STR investment dicks, so less demand has made going out nicer. People are starting to realize that places like Portland, ME and Traverse City, MI are not worth $4-500/night min.

All , fuck airBNB 'investors'. Like, I'm all about it if you have a garage apartment or something on your property and want to make extra money, but 'investing' in it can really fuck up local economies.

I do like them for times like Johnny mentioned - when you have a group or something it's cool to have a living area to chill in and individual bedrooms for couples. We have stayed at places like Home2 Suites and TownePlace and whatnot where you get a larger room with a kitchenette and stuff when it's just us and the dog, which also work out quite well and are now cheaper.

How? I'd love to understand this perspective more since I rent my cottage out when we're not using it and the guests are usually two families paired up and easily spend an extra $1500 each while in the Bend. Restaurants, rentals, shows, and stores all benefit from my visitors.

[D Griff]

All , fuck airBNB 'investors'. Like, I'm all about it if you have a garage apartment or something on your property and want to make extra money, but 'investing' in it can really fuck up local economies.

I do like them for times like Johnny mentioned - when you have a group or something it's cool to have a living area to chill in and individual bedrooms for couples. We have stayed at places like Home2 Suites and TownePlace and whatnot where you get a larger room with a kitchenette and stuff when it's just us and the dog, which also work out quite well and are now cheaper.

How? I'd love to understand this perspective more since I rent my cottage out when we're not using it and the guests are usually two families paired up and easily spend an extra $1500 each while in the Bend. Restaurants, rentals, shows, and stores all benefit from my visitors.

Chris's feedback is spot on. It prices locals out of the market to buy/rent homes and then there's no one to work at local establishments.

[D Griff]

Your point is certainly the flip side though, it brings in more tourists and generates revenue.

I personally think the massive focus over the past 10 or so years on real estate investments of every kind is a major cause of the 'shrinking middle class' and all of that though. The rich all own multiple homes and poors can't even swing a shitass apartment because of it.

I'm what the solution is, but it certainly makes it hard for most people.

[Tar]

How? I'd love to understand this perspective more since I rent my cottage out when we're not using it and the guests are usually two families paired up and easily spend an extra $1500 each while in the Bend. Restaurants, rentals, shows, and stores all benefit from my visitors.

Chris's feedback is spot on. It prices locals out of the market to buy/rent homes and then there's no one to work at local establishments.

What percentage of homes are airbnb? And how much do you think that market would change house prices? I don't buy it without some stats to back it up.

Wanna know what impacts house prices the most in Toronto? Immigration. Our policy to target 400 000 newcomers per year to increase the population 1/60 annually has the biggest market influence.

Another argument is the cottage sitch, I'd buy and own my cottage whether I airbnb it or not. That's the way I want to spend my retirement savings... so it would stay empty when I'm not there and that would diminish GB income by 21k annually.

[Tar]

Low rates are probably the next biggest housing market influence, if not first

[Tar]

Lack of new house builds are probably the third biggest factor

[Tar]

Building .materials up due to inflation making homes more expensive to build after all that

[Gberg2119]

Can't wait for season passes. 8 speed transmissions with 7th and 8th gears behind a "premium" paywall if you want the best mpeegees.

And now with everything becoming a screen you'll start hearing about companies putting ads in. Gotta watch this 15 second ad before starting the car.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-makes- ... lac-models

[max225]

Can't wait for season passes. 8 speed transmissions with 7th and 8th gears behind a "premium" paywall if you want the best mpeegees.

And now with everything becoming a screen you'll start hearing about companies putting ads in. Gotta watch this 15 second ad before starting the car.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-makes- ... lac-models

Gm has been struggling with the whole on star thing since it’s inception 20 years ago.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

All , fuck airBNB 'investors'. Like, I'm all about it if you have a garage apartment or something on your property and want to make extra money, but 'investing' in it can really fuck up local economies.

I do like them for times like Johnny mentioned - when you have a group or something it's cool to have a living area to chill in and individual bedrooms for couples. We have stayed at places like Home2 Suites and TownePlace and whatnot where you get a larger room with a kitchenette and stuff when it's just us and the dog, which also work out quite well and are now cheaper.

How? I'd love to understand this perspective more since I rent my cottage out when we're not using it and the guests are usually two families paired up and easily spend an extra $1500 each while in the Bend. Restaurants, rentals, shows, and stores all benefit from my visitors.

When it happens en masse for an entire area, it pushes out lower income people just looking to live. Apartment buildings are being converted to condos for "investors" to buy and turn into STR, and all those renters have nowhere to go. Houses that used to be $100k are $300k min and being sold above ask and being turned into STRs instantly. Those homes before would have sold to a young family or someone buying their first house, now there's no options for those people, so they're leaving.

Who cares about the low income people right? Good riddance?

Well, who are the servers at restaurants? Who comes out to fix your water softener? Who trims trees or does road maintenance? Low income folks are the backbone of the economy, like it or not. In Traverse City, they're being pushed to communities that are 20-30 miles away. So the server making $5/hr (in Michigan, servers can be paid below minimum wage since tips make up for it) is driving 40 miles round trip with $5/gal gas to just be treated like garbage by rich assholes completely out of touch with reality and tipping them 10% or less. OH and since all the low income people are being forced to the same areas, traffic on the few 2-lane roads that go in and out of those areas is SAVAGE from like 6-8am and 4-6pm. So these folks are driving 40-60 miles round trip per day that probably takes over an hour minimum sitting in traffic on 2 lane roads that were never intended to serve so many vehicles.

Many are leaving the area entirely, and I don't blame them. We're going to be a community of rich people with nobody to do any actual work. That's not going to end well at all. And the biggest rub, if there's no servers or service industry workers, tourism is toast. So all these STRs will be worthless and it's by their own doing.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Chris's feedback is spot on. It prices locals out of the market to buy/rent homes and then there's no one to work at local establishments.

What percentage of homes are airbnb? And how much do you think that market would change house prices? I don't buy it without some stats to back it up.

Wanna know what impacts house prices the most in Toronto? Immigration. Our policy to target 400 000 newcomers per year to increase the population 1/60 annually has the biggest market influence.

Another argument is the cottage sitch, I'd buy and own my cottage whether I airbnb it or not. That's the way I want to spend my retirement savings... so it would stay empty when I'm not there and that would diminish GB income by 21k annually.

There's nothing wrong with this IMO. I'm not talking about people like you...who want an escape and afford it by renting it out when you're not there. That's an entirely different use case, and why STR was created in the first place. I like this, and see nothing wrong with it. People like you aren't really contributing to the problem IMO because they're still buying houses rationally and within budgets and whatnot...

The problem lies with these investor groups from who knows where buying houses at any price with the sole intent of turning a profit by renting as STR. They'll buy groups of houses at a time with a blank check and convert them to STR in one fell swoop. They're treating small fragile economies as profit engines with no care for the impact, and that's just wrong to me.

[Tar]

How? I'd love to understand this perspective more since I rent my cottage out when we're not using it and the guests are usually two families paired up and easily spend an extra $1500 each while in the Bend. Restaurants, rentals, shows, and stores all benefit from my visitors.

When it happens en masse for an entire area, it pushes out lower income people just looking to live. Apartment buildings are being converted to condos for "investors" to buy and turn into STR, and all those renters have nowhere to go. Houses that used to be $100k are $300k min and being sold above ask and being turned into STRs instantly. Those homes before would have sold to a young family or someone buying their first house, now there's no options for those people, so they're leaving.

Who cares about the low income people right? Good riddance?

Well, who are the servers at restaurants? Who comes out to fix your water softener? Who trims trees or does road maintenance? Low income folks are the backbone of the economy, like it or not. In Traverse City, they're being pushed to communities that are 20-30 miles away. So the server making $5/hr (in Michigan, servers can be paid below minimum wage since tips make up for it) is driving 40 miles round trip with $5/gal gas to just be treated like garbage by rich assholes completely out of touch with reality and tipping them 10% or less. OH and since all the low income people are being forced to the same areas, traffic on the few 2-lane roads that go in and out of those areas is SAVAGE from like 6-8am and 4-6pm. So these folks are driving 40-60 miles round trip per day that probably takes over an hour minimum sitting in traffic on 2 lane roads that were never intended to serve so many vehicles.

Many are leaving the area entirely, and I don't blame them. We're going to be a community of rich people with nobody to do any actual work. That's not going to end well at all. And the biggest rub, if there's no servers or service industry workers, tourism is toast. So all these STRs will be worthless and it's by their own doing.

You can blame STRs for a bit of that but don't think prices are 300% up in areas where AirBnB occupies 1% or less of the properties.

Immigration/population growth in desirable markets, inflation are the main influences in those markets. How can it not have impact in a tourism destination like the one you and your wife AirBnB in for years before your move?

[Tar]

What percentage of homes are airbnb? And how much do you think that market would change house prices? I don't buy it without some stats to back it up.

Wanna know what impacts house prices the most in Toronto? Immigration. Our policy to target 400 000 newcomers per year to increase the population 1/60 annually has the biggest market influence.

Another argument is the cottage sitch, I'd buy and own my cottage whether I airbnb it or not. That's the way I want to spend my retirement savings... so it would stay empty when I'm not there and that would diminish GB income by 21k annually.

There's nothing wrong with this IMO. I'm not talking about people like you...who want an escape and afford it by renting it out when you're not there. That's an entirely different use case, and why STR was created in the first place. I like this, and see nothing wrong with it. People like you aren't really contributing to the problem IMO because they're still buying houses rationally and within budgets and whatnot...

The problem lies with these investor groups from who knows where buying houses at any price with the sole intent of turning a profit by renting as STR. They'll buy groups of houses at a time with a blank check and convert them to STR in one fell swoop. They're treating small fragile economies as profit engines with no care for the impact, and that's just wrong to me.

Not according to locals who share your views. Point is, know the market impacts and scale them all before pinpointing STR as the reason that low income people are moving further away from expensive areas.

Trust me, I've been thinking this through a lot lately because I'm at the receiving end in Grand Bend. The majority of the 200 STRs (less than 1% of all homes in Lambton Shores) in Grand Bend are doing exactly what we are doing, yet somehow they don't see it that way.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Can't wait for season passes. 8 speed transmissions with 7th and 8th gears behind a "premium" paywall if you want the best mpeegees.

And now with everything becoming a screen you'll start hearing about companies putting ads in. Gotta watch this 15 second ad before starting the car.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-makes- ... lac-models

Gm has been struggling with the whole on star thing since it’s inception 20 years ago.

It's been a money loser from the start. They think that by tying vehicle features into it (you currently need an onstar subscription to unlock/lock/remote start from your phone) it'll "provide more value" and make people want it.

Lulz, that clearly didn't work so now they're going to FORCE people into it. Which that I wouldn't really be against, but at 40-50/mo that's just insanity for what you get.

Subaru forced me to buy a subscription to get access to remote start from the phone...it was like $80 for 3 years (which they claimed was a discount with the new vehicle purchase, iono). THAT made sense to me, and I signed up for it when I bought the car. I used the app constantly to remote start or lock the car, so it was worth it. It also came with some remote security service like OnStar AND some sort of roadside assistance thing. Pretty strong value for $80 for 3 years.

Now get this. When I sold the car, I canceled my Subaru subscription, and within a few days got a credit on my credit card for $72 from Subaru. Looking into it, they pro-rated the subscription cost and refunded me the difference for what I didn't use.

GM is so out of touch in this regard, and internally they think OnStar is next level innovation HOW COULD PEOPLE NOT WANT IT. Well, Subaru charges $80 for essentially the same thing you charge $1,500 for, and that $80 isn't even forced AND pro-rated if you don't use it all. Insane.

[Tar]

I want to learn more about these groups and how much property they hold. Is there any data on them?