Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

[Desertbreh]

I live in an area where all of a sudden I started spotting model 3's multiple times a day. In fact, I remembered lot of people pre ordered and waited, and literally half the model 3's starts with the first 3 letters on the license plate.

I don't wanna join the pretentious crowd of teslas, and their build quality is indeed terrible for the price of the car. On top of that, I saw an article that most people who buy these cars and also lot of other cars people don't even use the tech that comes with it. If thats the case with the tesla, they are definitely bought as status symbols

No more a status symbol than any German brand. Also there are like no Teslas in Texas. Rare birds … they are some of the most common cars in Northern California. Hardly a status symbol when everyone has one

That is because all real Texans burn as much refined West Texas Intermediate as humanly possible, which you can't do when you're piloting some weed smoking egomaniacal Californian's full size Tyco slot car.

[max225]

No more a status symbol than any German brand. Also there are like no Teslas in Texas. Rare birds … they are some of the most common cars in Northern California. Hardly a status symbol when everyone has one

That is because all real Texans burn as much refined West Texas Intermediate as humanly possible, which you can't do when you're piloting some weed smoking egomaniacal Californian's full size Tyco slot car.

I was shocked by the number of shitty sedans on the roads. It is littered with Hyundai and nissan small/medium/full size sedans. And obviously the obligatory 's but I'd say no more than in california. I'd say californians are far more devoted to their 's compared to the representative Texans. As we're nearly paying $5 a gallon vs high 2s for Texass'ns

[D Griff]

That is because all real Texans burn as much refined West Texas Intermediate as humanly possible, which you can't do when you're piloting some weed smoking egomaniacal Californian's full size Tyco slot car.

I was shocked by the number of shitty sedans on the roads. It is littered with Hyundai and nissan small/medium/full size sedans. And obviously the obligatory 's but I'd say no more than in california. I'd say californians are far more devoted to their 's compared to the representative Texans. As we're nearly paying $5 a gallon vs high 2s for Texass'ns

Austin is a bit unique as far as Texas goes though, Dallas/Houston/rural are really the Mecca’s.

[fledonfoot]

GR86 order books are still not open and the car will probably miss the mid-November launch. BRZ’s are set to hit the US within the next two weeks.

I’ve settled on Neptune blue (two bright blue cars… fuck it) in premium trim, and if I’m able to order it with the GR accessories at launch I’ll get the GR exhaust, intake, short shifter, sway bars , and the factory paint protection film. There is also a GR brake caliper kit (Brembo) in the works, which I’ll consider later.

I’ll have to pick up a winter wheel and tire set due to the lack of 215/40/18 winter rubber, or just consider all seasons.

[max225]

I was shocked by the number of shitty sedans on the roads. It is littered with Hyundai and nissan small/medium/full size sedans. And obviously the obligatory 's but I'd say no more than in california. I'd say californians are far more devoted to their 's compared to the representative Texans. As we're nearly paying $5 a gallon vs high 2s for Texass'ns

Austin is a bit unique as far as Texas goes though, Dallas/Houston/rural are really the Mecca’s.

I was around San Antonio/Austin and a few of the surrounding towns. Austin is even less trucky... but I was expecting way more.

[max225]

GR86 order books are still not open and the car will probably miss the mid-November launch. BRZ’s are set to hit the US within the next two weeks.

I’ve settled on Neptune blue (two bright blue cars… fuck it) in premium trim, and if I’m able to order it with the GR accessories at launch I’ll get the GR exhaust, intake, short shifter, sway bars , and the factory paint protection film. There is also a GR brake caliper kit (Brembo) in the works, which I’ll consider later.

I’ll have to pick up a winter wheel and tire set due to the lack of 215/40/18 winter rubber, or just consider all seasons.

Can you actually "order" a GR or is it the same bullshit as with any other toyota where you're fishing for an allocation?

[wap]

Interesting read about Lucid.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3802 ... %20Openers

[max225]

Interesting read about Lucid.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3802 ... %20Openers

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

[fledonfoot]

GR86 order books are still not open and the car will probably miss the mid-November launch. BRZ’s are set to hit the US within the next two weeks.

I’ve settled on Neptune blue (two bright blue cars… fuck it) in premium trim, and if I’m able to order it with the GR accessories at launch I’ll get the GR exhaust, intake, short shifter, sway bars , and the factory paint protection film. There is also a GR brake caliper kit (Brembo) in the works, which I’ll consider later.

I’ll have to pick up a winter wheel and tire set due to the lack of 215/40/18 winter rubber, or just consider all seasons.

Can you actually "order" a GR or is it the same bullshit as with any other toyota where you're fishing for an allocation?

Same old situation. There’s only two ways to “order” one… base or premium trim.

The GR accessories are PPO options (port installed in the US) and they’re added to the Monroney label, and then factor into the residual value.

[max225]

Can you actually "order" a GR or is it the same bullshit as with any other toyota where you're fishing for an allocation?

Same old situation. There’s only two ways to “order” one… base or premium trim.

The GR accessories are PPO options (port installed in the US) and they’re added to the Monroney label, and then factor into the residual value.

Do you reside in an area that have distributors that add a bit of fluff ? Based on my recollection on the taco forum the Texas/southwest distributor is notorious for a lot of “add ons”.

All that ordering bs aside I can’t wait for you to get that thing. they are great cars, imo they will be future classics.

[CaleDeRoo]

GR86 order books are still not open and the car will probably miss the mid-November launch. BRZ’s are set to hit the US within the next two weeks.

I’ve settled on Neptune blue (two bright blue cars… fuck it) in premium trim, and if I’m able to order it with the GR accessories at launch I’ll get the GR exhaust, intake, short shifter, sway bars , and the factory paint protection film. There is also a GR brake caliper kit (Brembo) in the works, which I’ll consider later.

I’ll have to pick up a winter wheel and tire set due to the lack of 215/40/18 winter rubber, or just consider all seasons.

I have a friend waiting to order the same color.

[wap]

Interesting read about Lucid.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3802 ... %20Openers

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

Re capital:

Lucid is also flush with investor cash, with a stock valuation near $33 billion—yes, before delivering its first car—and an impressive $4.5 billion raised in its public offering in July.

Re cost:

The first Airs off the line are all $170,500 Dream Editions bound for early adopters—limited to 520 copies, with up to 1111 horsepower and the aforementioned 520 miles of range. Obviously, six-figure luxury sedans aren’t a growth industry. So they’ll soon be joined by far more affordable versions, including next year’s single-motor Air Pure, with 480 horsepower and roughly 406 miles of range for $78,900. That’s about $12,000 less than a Model S Long Range, or $24,000 less than a Mercedes-Benz EQS with 151 fewer horsepower and a mere 350-mile range. And that’s for the least-powerful Lucid with the shortest battery range.

Blah?

Boldface items includes that 520-mile range (best in the industry to date, and 25 percent farther than Tesla’s best effort), a choice of 650 or 800 all-wheel horsepower in Touring and Grand Touring editions, eye-popping luxury, a 34-inch curved driver’s display and class-leading cargo space.

[fledonfoot]

Same old situation. There’s only two ways to “order” one… base or premium trim.

The GR accessories are PPO options (port installed in the US) and they’re added to the Monroney label, and then factor into the residual value.

Do you reside in an area that have distributors that add a bit of fluff ? Based on my recollection on the taco forum the Texas/southwest distributor is notorious for a lot of “add ons”.

All that ordering bs aside I can’t wait for you to get that thing. they are great cars, imo they will be future classics.

The fluff is usually added by Gulf States Toyota and South East Toyota distributors, where they own EVERYTHING from the moment the car is produced, including their own in house accessories branded as “factory”… which is largely rebadged crap.

The first car was fantastic. This one will fix every shortcoming the first car had with the new engine.
They’ve dyno’d a BRZ at 209hp to the wheels and 170tq, and Motor Trend snapped off 5.6 0-60’s and a 5.3 with the 1ft rollout shenanigans they play.

[max225]

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

Re capital:

Lucid is also flush with investor cash, with a stock valuation near $33 billion—yes, before delivering its first car—and an impressive $4.5 billion raised in its public offering in July.

Re cost:

The first Airs off the line are all $170,500 Dream Editions bound for early adopters—limited to 520 copies, with up to 1111 horsepower and the aforementioned 520 miles of range. Obviously, six-figure luxury sedans aren’t a growth industry. So they’ll soon be joined by far more affordable versions, including next year’s single-motor Air Pure, with 480 horsepower and roughly 406 miles of range for $78,900. That’s about $12,000 less than a Model S Long Range, or $24,000 less than a Mercedes-Benz EQS with 151 fewer horsepower and a mere 350-mile range. And that’s for the least-powerful Lucid with the shortest battery range.

Blah?

Boldface items includes that 520-mile range (best in the industry to date, and 25 percent farther than Tesla’s best effort), a choice of 650 or 800 all-wheel horsepower in Touring and Grand Touring editions, eye-popping luxury, a 34-inch curved driver’s display and class-leading cargo space.

I don’t believe anything they say until I see a real world test of a production unit. The model 3 was supposed to be under 30k

The Mercedes is quite epic… we shall see about the lucid but I have no hopes for them

[wap]

[D Griff]

Do you reside in an area that have distributors that add a bit of fluff ? Based on my recollection on the taco forum the Texas/southwest distributor is notorious for a lot of “add ons”.

All that ordering bs aside I can’t wait for you to get that thing. they are great cars, imo they will be future classics.

The fluff is usually added by Gulf States Toyota and South East Toyota distributors, where they own EVERYTHING from the moment the car is produced, including their own in house accessories branded as “factory”… which is largely rebadged crap.

The first car was fantastic. This one will fix every shortcoming the first car had with the new engine.
They’ve dyno’d a BRZ at 209hp to the wheels and 170tq, and Motor Trend snapped off 5.6 0-60’s and a 5.3 with the 1ft rollout shenanigans they play.

I very much want one as well

[MrH42]

Interesting read about Lucid.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3802 ... %20Openers

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

They've under-delivered? They're both just now launching and are doing what they said they would do. What have they promised that hasn't come through exactly?

Tesla wildly under delivers consistently. The list is a mile long of what they've promised and haven't delivered.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Interesting read about Lucid.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3802 ... %20Openers

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

These startups think producing, distributing, and servicing these vehicles is easy once it's engineered. The engineering is the easy part...

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

They've under-delivered? They're both just now launching and are doing what they said they would do. What have they promised that hasn't come through exactly?

Tesla wildly under delivers consistently. The list is a mile long of what they've promised and haven't delivered.

Timelines. Wasn't the R1T supposed to start deliveries last year? And wasn't Lucid all but dead a few years ago?

Hard to put $100k worth of confidence in one of these startups.

[MrH42]

If you want to consider a delay from Rivian an under-delivery, then, yeah, I guess?

Lucid Air went through different rounds of funding throughout the whole development process. I don't understand how that could be considered "under-deliverying" though? I totally get the hesitation with putting up 6 figures for a start up OEM. I'd have a hard time with that too. But I don't think that's due to consistent "under-delivering". It's a lot of risk, lots of unknowns, etc.

But you can't say these companies are under-delivering while also stanning for Tesla, which Max does regularly.

https://elonmusk.today/ THIS is under-delivering.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

If you want to consider a delay from Rivian an under-delivery, then, yeah, I guess?

Lucid Air went through different rounds of funding throughout the whole development process. I don't understand how that could be considered "under-deliverying" though? I totally get the hesitation with putting up 6 figures for a start up OEM. I'd have a hard time with that too. But I don't think that's due to consistent "under-delivering". It's a lot of risk, lots of unknowns, etc.

But you can't say these companies are under-delivering while also stanning for Tesla, which Max does regularly.

https://elonmusk.today/ THIS is under-delivering.

Musk is the original over-promise under-deliverer. I don't trust any of these companies. Making cars is HARD.

[D Griff]

I don't really understand how these "newcomers" can overcome the insane levels of Capital required to launch a new car, as well as all the competition already in the works from the Major OEMs.

I have no faith in these guys or Rivian for that matter. They have done nothing but under-deliver.

This thing is also well over 100k... not sure who the target customer here is. If someone is looking for Better than tesla quality they will go with Taycan/RS E tron. This thing just screams "blah" to me.

They've under-delivered? They're both just now launching and are doing what they said they would do. What have they promised that hasn't come through exactly?

Tesla wildly under delivers consistently. The list is a mile long of what they've promised and haven't delivered.

but I also think it 100% remains to be seen, all of the start ups could go either way.

Tesla certainly massively underdelivers, that said... most companies do, particularly manufacturers. Look at the GR86, Bronco, C8 Corvette, Supra, NSX... any car that's new and at all exciting ever, pretty much. They are usually YEARS late to market, disappointing in various ways (think every concept WRX versus how they actually come out just looking like Corollas). I have worked for two electronics manufacturers, both of which are high quality companies that make good stuff, and yet almost every product releases late and has tons of bugs on launch.

All of that said, many of these products wind up being huge successes on many levels.

I hope the best for these new companies though, at least they provide an alternative to Tessies and all of the that comes with that company.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

They've under-delivered? They're both just now launching and are doing what they said they would do. What have they promised that hasn't come through exactly?

Tesla wildly under delivers consistently. The list is a mile long of what they've promised and haven't delivered.

but I also think it 100% remains to be seen, all of the start ups could go either way.

Tesla certainly massively underdelivers, that said... most companies do, particularly manufacturers. Look at the GR86, Bronco, C8 Corvette, Supra, NSX... any car that's new and at all exciting ever, pretty much. They are usually YEARS late to market, disappointing in various ways (think every concept WRX versus how they actually come out just looking like Corollas). I have worked for two electronics manufacturers, both of which are high quality companies that make good stuff, and yet almost every product releases late and has tons of bugs on launch.

All of that said, many of these products wind up being huge successes on many levels.

I hope the best for these new companies though, at least they provide an alternative to Tessies and all of the that comes with that company.

To be fair, established OEMs rarely over promise. Concepts are always named as such with no promise of production. "Delays" are never really reported by OEMs, just media speculation. An OEM will NEVER reveal a production vehicle before it's production ready. So sure some things feel like they take forever, but it's often due to inconsistent communication from media outlets that are just publishing educated guesses of new product.

The EV companies DGAF about that and dudes like Musk run around promising the world in production whether it actually happens or not. There's just no accountability for these companies like there is for established OEMs.

[wap]

One thing I think Lucid has going for it, per the article I posted above, is the fact that it built a brand new factory that is staffed with former auto manufacturing people with decades of experience.

From said article. Italics are mine:

Lucid’s sparkling plant, one hour south of Phoenix, becomes the first brand-new EV assembly plant in North America. (Tesla, Rivian and long-shot Lordstown Motors have all chosen to convert defunct legacy-automaker factories for EV production). Prior to Road & Track’s exclusive all-day drive in the 520-mile-range Air Dream Edition—the unquestioned new benchmark in electric sedans—I toured the facility with Lucid’s manufacturing leaders, each counting decades of car-building expertise.

“We are now an automaker, ready to go,” says an enthused Steve Inglis, who clocked 30 years at Ford before joining Lucid as director of body structures manufacturing.

“This is production heaven; no production hell is going to happen here,” Inglis vows of the factory, which aims to churn out 20,000 Airs in 2022. About 1100 American employees are already on the job, with the possibility of 6000 if a four-phase expansion goes according to plan.

It remains to be seen, of course, if they make a go of it, and what they're saying may end being a bunch of . But damn, this is a handsome car, much better looking than a Model 3, imo.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

One thing I think Lucid has going for it, per the article I posted above, is the fact that it built a brand new factory that is staffed with former auto manufacturing people with decades of experience.

From said article. Italics are mine:

Lucid’s sparkling plant, one hour south of Phoenix, becomes the first brand-new EV assembly plant in North America. (Tesla, Rivian and long-shot Lordstown Motors have all chosen to convert defunct legacy-automaker factories for EV production). Prior to Road & Track’s exclusive all-day drive in the 520-mile-range Air Dream Edition—the unquestioned new benchmark in electric sedans—I toured the facility with Lucid’s manufacturing leaders, each counting decades of car-building expertise.

“We are now an automaker, ready to go,” says an enthused Steve Inglis, who clocked 30 years at Ford before joining Lucid as director of body structures manufacturing.

“This is production heaven; no production hell is going to happen here,” Inglis vows of the factory, which aims to churn out 20,000 Airs in 2022. About 1100 American employees are already on the job, with the possibility of 6000 if a four-phase expansion goes according to plan.

It remains to be seen, of course, if they make a go of it, and what they're saying may end being a bunch of . But damn, this is a handsome car, much better looking than a Model 3, imo.

What remains to be seen is how many s are willing to drop $100k+ on these things. Sure they look great, they HAVE to for that price. But to build an entirely new plant to produce 20k units per year is an epic waste, profitability is at best.

Curious what other value oriented products in the pipeline will actually see production. Or maybe cars will just be for the rich.