Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Sports cars ~$30k MSRP are just done. Mustang 4cyl, Camaro is all but dead, Miata will be around until CAFE kills it, but then it's just stuff like GTI, WRX, Si, etc and even those are quickly cresting $30k.

But there's very few sportscars left, and with that will be an increase in used value because there's no new to "replace" them. Indeed hard to speculate now because the market makes no sense, but it'll be very the next few years.

That is certainly true, but the reality is that many of the "$30K sports cars" are still around and inflation is just a bitch. Mustang GT, Nissan Z car, Miata. The last time there was really something like the GR86 was maybe the Nissan 240SX? It may go away and then people will cry about it and eventually another company will try it out.

$40K is the average new car cost, and at that point, you can get a bunch of sporty stuff (maybe this year and its markups taken out of the equation).

Still , the GR86 is worth every penny and more and is very possibly a future classic/end of an era thing, like an S2000 was.

I'm still seriously considering a new BRZ to just keep stock and drive on nice days or when I need to go somewhere on my own. Keep it stock, in the garage, low miles, and it'll probably barely depreciate ever.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Honda is clearly chasing marketing MPG numbers, and not real world. Makes it all IMO, but yet here it is. The brand continues to be insanely strong.

It’s probably just the hybrids. Their hybrid system is not good on the highway and really only shines between like 30 and 50 MPH steady state driving.

Which pretty much never happens.

[Johnny_P]

It’s probably just the hybrids. Their hybrid system is not good on the highway and really only shines between like 30 and 50 MPH steady state driving.

Which pretty much never happens.

The way they set their hybrids up doesn’t make much sense to me. Unless they were stuck by patent limitations or something.

[D Griff]

That is certainly true, but the reality is that many of the "$30K sports cars" are still around and inflation is just a bitch. Mustang GT, Nissan Z car, Miata. The last time there was really something like the GR86 was maybe the Nissan 240SX? It may go away and then people will cry about it and eventually another company will try it out.

$40K is the average new car cost, and at that point, you can get a bunch of sporty stuff (maybe this year and its markups taken out of the equation).

Still , the GR86 is worth every penny and more and is very possibly a future classic/end of an era thing, like an S2000 was.

I'm still seriously considering a new BRZ to just keep stock and drive on nice days or when I need to go somewhere on my own. Keep it stock, in the garage, low miles, and it'll probably barely depreciate ever.

I would take it to the track/use it as my 'daily' in the limited sense that I 'daily'. Likely would stick mostly stock as well, maybe a few reversible things like wheels/tires/suspension/exhaust. It seems like the factory motor and everything are perfectly fine.

I am curious on whether they will come out with a version with some better brakes in year two or three ... I will really wait all that long for them.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I'm still seriously considering a new BRZ to just keep stock and drive on nice days or when I need to go somewhere on my own. Keep it stock, in the garage, low miles, and it'll probably barely depreciate ever.

I would take it to the track/use it as my 'daily' in the limited sense that I 'daily'. Likely would stick mostly stock as well, maybe a few reversible things like wheels/tires/suspension/exhaust. It seems like the factory motor and everything are perfectly fine.

I am curious on whether they will come out with a version with some better brakes in year two or three ... I will really wait all that long for them.

I'd be surprised if there was a ton of product upgrades in the pipeline for that thing. Most investment money will be funneled into pods and pods alone. Though, I'm rather surprised the new car exists at all, so

[ChrisoftheNorth]

seems a bit of a pessimistic view to me... the Miata ain't going anywhere, the Mustang likely isn't, there will always be used Corvettes, etc.

We're just in a weird valley of car history that is kind of shitty as far as affordability goes with shortages and whatnot. I do think something as raw as the 86 isn't too long for the world

I think the current gen MX-5 will be the last purely ICE MX-5.

Mazda is forging ahead with sustainability, efficiency, luxury, and getting away from the zoom-zoom feeling. Also, the MX-5 is a 100% bespoke platform with incredible engineering, it's a huge suck of resources for a small company like Mazda.

The next MX-5 will probably just be a warming over of the current platform with more tech and shit. It's the only way it'll survive. Not that the new GR86 is much different, but the days of these cars are numbered.

[D Griff]

I think the current gen MX-5 will be the last purely ICE MX-5.

Mazda is forging ahead with sustainability, efficiency, luxury, and getting away from the zoom-zoom feeling. Also, the MX-5 is a 100% bespoke platform with incredible engineering, it's a huge suck of resources for a small company like Mazda.

The next MX-5 will probably just be a warming over of the current platform with more tech and shit. It's the only way it'll survive. Not that the new GR86 is much different, but the days of these cars are numbered.

which

I still think y'all are pessimists

Think about a typical day on a drive- how many Mustangs, Camaros, Miatas, 86s, WRXs, Genesis Coupes, 350/70Zs, etc. do you see? At least here, I see a lot. Sure, some models will disappear, but others will see an opportunity and take it. There may be fewer choices, but there will still be shit. If the Miata and 86 go away, someone like Honda will jump in with an S2000, or maybe a cheaper VW/Porsche sports car or something.

Real world example: Camaro is going away, but Supra and new Z car are here to 'replace' it.

I would bet anyone $100 that there will be some form of RWD, ICE, , affordable fun car for sale new in the US in 2040.

[max225]

The next MX-5 will probably just be a warming over of the current platform with more tech and shit. It's the only way it'll survive. Not that the new GR86 is much different, but the days of these cars are numbered.

which

I still think y'all are pessimists

Think about a typical day on a drive- how many Mustangs, Camaros, Miatas, 86s, WRXs, Genesis Coupes, 350/70Zs, etc. do you see? At least here, I see a lot. Sure, some models will disappear, but others will see an opportunity and take it. There may be fewer choices, but there will still be shit. If the Miata and 86 go away, someone like Honda will jump in with an S2000, or maybe a cheaper VW/Porsche sports car or something.

Real world example: Camaro is going away, but Supra and new Z car are here to 'replace' it.

I would bet anyone $100 that there will be some form of RWD, ICE, , affordable fun car for sale new in the US in 2040.

2040.... No way unless it is made by Porsche or Bugatti or something. There will be fun cars, but they will be EVs. Given what we're seeing now... Which is R&D from 3-7 years ago... which is basically lipstick on the prior gen vehicles... Imagine what they are working on NOW when it comes to ICE... absolutely nothing. Everyone is competing for Autonomous driving and Pods, it is incredibly evident.

[CaleDeRoo]

The Z06 vert is very, very hot.

[D Griff]

which

I still think y'all are pessimists

Think about a typical day on a drive- how many Mustangs, Camaros, Miatas, 86s, WRXs, Genesis Coupes, 350/70Zs, etc. do you see? At least here, I see a lot. Sure, some models will disappear, but others will see an opportunity and take it. There may be fewer choices, but there will still be shit. If the Miata and 86 go away, someone like Honda will jump in with an S2000, or maybe a cheaper VW/Porsche sports car or something.

Real world example: Camaro is going away, but Supra and new Z car are here to 'replace' it.

I would bet anyone $100 that there will be some form of RWD, ICE, , affordable fun car for sale new in the US in 2040.

2040.... No way unless it is made by Porsche or Bugatti or something. There will be fun cars, but they will be EVs. Given what we're seeing now... Which is R&D from 3-7 years ago... which is basically lipstick on the prior gen vehicles... Imagine what they are working on NOW when it comes to ICE... absolutely nothing. Everyone is competing for Autonomous driving and Pods, it is incredibly evident.

That may be true, but then some smart manufacturer will realize that there are still a lot of people who don't want pods, and they will act accordingly. Supply and demand. Sure, there may not be demand for Mustang, Camaro, Miata, and 86, but surely between those four, there is enough for ONE vehicle to be produced. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if it winds up coming from Kia or some other brand that has never made a sports car.

[D Griff]

There are literally millions of American driver who outright don't want a POD whatsoever.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

There are literally millions of American driver who outright don't want a POD whatsoever.

There will be fun EVs. But ICE cars are dead, breh. Zero real development going into them, I know this firsthand from GM and Stellanus. 2040 will have ZERO ICE vehicles sold new.

But your point is valid, and if we can recalibrate our definition of "fun" being brubs, the future is honestly bright with EVs. I'm sure there will be a number of fun EV entrants.

[D Griff]

There are literally millions of American driver who outright don't want a POD whatsoever.

There will be fun EVs. But ICE cars are dead, breh. Zero real development going into them, I know this firsthand from GM and Stellanus. 2040 will have ZERO ICE vehicles sold new.

But your point is valid, and if we can recalibrate our definition of "fun" being brubs, the future is honestly bright with EVs. I'm sure there will be a number of fun EV entrants.

Want to take the $100 bet?

You have said yourself how shitty these companies are... they see a trend and devote everything to it, that may be true. But SOMEONE will see a gap in the market/demand for fun vehicles. Hell, just track day brehs alone could support one car being made.

Hell, it could end up being Tessie of all companies.

Where there are people wanting to buy something with money, someone will build it and sell it.

[D Griff]

The Z06 vert is very, very hot.

And also a great example of how everyone isn't jumping into electric pods.

Just announced in the past weeks/months:
670 HP NA high reving screamer mid engine badfuckingass Corvette Z0sex
MANUAL ONLY Honda Civic Si and Type R
Natty BRZ/GR86 delivering on everything automotive journalists and car bros wanted
Nissan 400Z with a fuckload of power from a gas engine through a manual trans/the rear wheels
Brand new WRX with an STI coming - both ICE/manual
New GTI/R with ICE/manual

Also rumored:
Mid engine Hyundai, GR Corolla, I'm sure I'm forgetting things...

[ChrisoftheNorth]

There will be fun EVs. But ICE cars are dead, breh. Zero real development going into them, I know this firsthand from GM and Stellanus. 2040 will have ZERO ICE vehicles sold new.

But your point is valid, and if we can recalibrate our definition of "fun" being brubs, the future is honestly bright with EVs. I'm sure there will be a number of fun EV entrants.

Want to take the $100 bet?

You have said yourself how shitty these companies are... they see a trend and devote everything to it, that may be true. But SOMEONE will see a gap in the market/demand for fun vehicles. Hell, just track day brehs alone could support one car being made.

Hell, it could end up being Tessie of all companies.

Where there are people wanting to buy something with money, someone will build it and sell it.

I'd gladly take the $100 bet that in 19 years there won't be a single AFFORDABLE ICE sports car for sale new in the country.

[D Griff]

Want to take the $100 bet?

You have said yourself how shitty these companies are... they see a trend and devote everything to it, that may be true. But SOMEONE will see a gap in the market/demand for fun vehicles. Hell, just track day brehs alone could support one car being made.

Hell, it could end up being Tessie of all companies.

Where there are people wanting to buy something with money, someone will build it and sell it.

I'd gladly take the $100 bet that in 19 years there won't be a single AFFORDABLE ICE sports car for sale new in the country.

Hopefully we remember this day and still talk in 19 years, I look forward to getting a hunnit.

Also, as a parameter, I would say affordable = anything under $40K in 2021 dollhairs or at/below the current average new transaction price.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The Z06 vert is very, very hot.

And also a great example of how everyone isn't jumping into electric pods.

Just announced in the past weeks/months:
670 HP NA high reving screamer mid engine badfuckingass Corvette Z0sex
MANUAL ONLY Honda Civic Si and Type R
Natty BRZ/GR86 delivering on everything automotive journalists and car bros wanted
Nissan 400Z with a fuckload of power from a gas engine through a manual trans/the rear wheels
Brand new WRX with an STI coming - both ICE/manual
New GTI/R with ICE/manual

Also rumored:
Mid engine Hyundai, GR Corolla, I'm sure I'm forgetting things...

It's the last gasp for ICE. Going out with a bang

Z06 is unobtanium plus no
Civic is basically the same as before
BRZ is the most because it's mostly the same but incrementally better in the right areas
400Z will be too expensive, same as before
WRX and STi are same or worse than before (that giant Subaru screen )
GTI/R same as before

Nothing really has come out, things just aren't dying...which is good. But they're getting a bunch of tech crap that might ruin them (like the WRX). Which makes the BRZ even more

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I'd gladly take the $100 bet that in 19 years there won't be a single AFFORDABLE ICE sports car for sale new in the country.

Hopefully we remember this day and still talk in 19 years, I look forward to getting a hunnit.

Also, as a parameter, I would say affordable = anything under $40K in 2021 dollhairs or at/below the current average new transaction price.

Yep.
At/below average ATP
ICE

sports car
That won't be a thing in 19 years. The .gov is making sure of it.

[max225]

The Z06 vert is very, very hot.

And also a great example of how everyone isn't jumping into electric pods.

Just announced in the past weeks/months:
670 HP NA high reving screamer mid engine badfuckingass Corvette Z0sex
MANUAL ONLY Honda Civic Si and Type R
Natty BRZ/GR86 delivering on everything automotive journalists and car bros wanted
Nissan 400Z with a fuckload of power from a gas engine through a manual trans/the rear wheels
Brand new WRX with an STI coming - both ICE/manual
New GTI/R with ICE/manual

Also rumored:
Mid engine Hyundai, GR Corolla, I'm sure I'm forgetting things...

No one is denying this... but it is 2021. Not 2040. We're in PEAK FUN.

718 porschas
mustangs
challys or anything with a 6.4+ from FCA
Miata/RF
Turbo mazda hatches
GTI/R etc.. lame but still kicking
N line from Hyundai, pretty impressive
New SI soon
WRX/STI while still there
BRZ/86 which are as mentioned
tons of fun AMGs
M2s
M3s/M4
RS3 is epic
Some Yoda stuff coming our way

No other time in history was there this much performance for THIS LITTLE MONEY (adjusted for inflation)

[max225]

Also drove a GT3 on a "track" last weekend in Vegas... Very interesting experience. Surprisingly reminded me the most of my M3.... Kinda made me realize how that car was for the money. Comp packaged M3s are monsters...

8K rpm in the Porsche is quite epic.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Also drove a GT3 on a "track" last weekend in Vegas... Very interesting experience. Surprisingly reminded me the most of my M3.... Kinda made me realize how that car was for the money. Comp packaged M3s are monsters...

8K rpm in the Porsche is quite epic.

One day I would like to do this...

[Desertbreh]

And also a great example of how everyone isn't jumping into electric pods.

Just announced in the past weeks/months:
670 HP NA high reving screamer mid engine badfuckingass Corvette Z0sex
MANUAL ONLY Honda Civic Si and Type R
Natty BRZ/GR86 delivering on everything automotive journalists and car bros wanted
Nissan 400Z with a fuckload of power from a gas engine through a manual trans/the rear wheels
Brand new WRX with an STI coming - both ICE/manual
New GTI/R with ICE/manual

Also rumored:
Mid engine Hyundai, GR Corolla, I'm sure I'm forgetting things...

No one is denying this... but it is 2021. Not 2040. We're in PEAK FUN.

718 porschas
mustangs
challys or anything with a 6.4+ from FCA
Miata/RF
Turbo mazda hatches
GTI/R etc.. lame but still kicking
N line from Hyundai, pretty impressive
New SI soon
WRX/STI while still there
BRZ/86 which are as mentioned
tons of fun AMGs
M2s
M3s/M4
RS3 is epic
Some Yoda stuff coming our way

No other time in history was there this much performance for THIS LITTLE MONEY (adjusted for inflation)

CT5 Blackwing

[max225]

No one is denying this... but it is 2021. Not 2040. We're in PEAK FUN.

718 porschas
mustangs
challys or anything with a 6.4+ from FCA
Miata/RF
Turbo mazda hatches
GTI/R etc.. lame but still kicking
N line from Hyundai, pretty impressive
New SI soon
WRX/STI while still there
BRZ/86 which are as mentioned
tons of fun AMGs
M2s
M3s/M4
RS3 is epic
Some Yoda stuff coming our way

No other time in history was there this much performance for THIS LITTLE MONEY (adjusted for inflation)

CT5 Blackwing

That's an interesting one... prolly future classic.

[D Griff]

CT5 Blackwing

That's an interesting one... prolly future classic.

Breh should buy one actually.

[D Griff]

Also drove a GT3 on a "track" last weekend in Vegas... Very interesting experience. Surprisingly reminded me the most of my M3.... Kinda made me realize how that car was for the money. Comp packaged M3s are monsters...

8K rpm in the Porsche is quite epic.

Sounds awesome, man! What was the 'track' like? The Ferrari 430 'track experience' I did was mega lame.

I would love to get down to the Porsche experience in Atlanta at some point, it seems like you actually get a lot of good seat time/instruction for a somewhat reasonable cost.