Car Talk 5: The Juice is Loose!

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Still don't get it.

I recall hearing the plan for the C5 early called for higher sales volume than Corvette had really done before, all to pay off the insane cost of the platform. Out of concern of being able to meet that volume, the FRC was supposed to be the base "cheap" version with no options, light, and simple. The volume play. Thing was, the C5 was so popular, they didn't need the base model anymore, so it became the Z06 instead. Those early year FRC's were indeed oddballs. And being pre 01 cars, non-fixable EBCM. Many were turned into track cars (as they were kind of intended to be), but I guess aside from collector status for "oddballs", I really don't get the appeal.

Yeah, if I was looking for a C5, it would be a Z06 and nothing else. $20K for a regular coupe is just insanity. That's C6 territory.

I can't imagine anyone is actually paying $20k for a C5 coupe, unless it's got no miles on it, and even then that's just stupidity. All anyone WANTS are Z06s, but not many know how to spot them, I was amazed by how many people asked if my coupe was a Z06 when I was selling it.

An 08+ C6 is the sweet spot IMO.

[max225]

Yeah, if I was looking for a C5, it would be a Z06 and nothing else. $20K for a regular coupe is just insanity. That's C6 territory.

I can't imagine anyone is actually paying $20k for a C5 coupe, unless it's got no miles on it, and even then that's just stupidity. All anyone WANTS are Z06s, but not many know how to spot them, I was amazed by how many people asked if my coupe was a Z06 when I was selling it.

An 08+ C6 is the sweet spot IMO.

I am pretty sure the C7 will be down to C6 pricing once the C8 ramps up. There really isn't THAT much difference between the C5,C6 and C7. yea yea yea So much innovation much wow, but the the C7 is prime to drop in price IMO.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I can't imagine anyone is actually paying $20k for a C5 coupe, unless it's got no miles on it, and even then that's just stupidity. All anyone WANTS are Z06s, but not many know how to spot them, I was amazed by how many people asked if my coupe was a Z06 when I was selling it.

An 08+ C6 is the sweet spot IMO.

I am pretty sure the C7 will be down to C6 pricing once the C8 ramps up. There really isn't THAT much difference between the C5,C6 and C7. yea yea yea So much innovation much wow, but the the C7 is prime to drop in price IMO.

C7's have dropped very little in price. It makes zero sense because agreed, they're basically the same car. But the styling and interior is significantly more modern and appealing...they definitely have the most potential to drop once more base C8's are out there. Still, the most modern which will likely keep their values up a tad.

[Huckleberry]

I am pretty sure the C7 will be down to C6 pricing once the C8 ramps up. There really isn't THAT much difference between the C5,C6 and C7. yea yea yea So much innovation much wow, but the the C7 is prime to drop in price IMO.

C7's have dropped very little in price. It makes zero sense because agreed, they're basically the same car. But the styling and interior is significantly more modern and appealing...they definitely have the most potential to drop once more base C8's are out there. Still, the most modern which will likely keep their values up a tad.

That always seems to be the case: the manual cars don't sell as well new, and then hold their values better on the used market. The price disparity between the used manual and auto SS sedans is sickening. It's like $10-$15k.

[Huckleberry]

Yeah, if I was looking for a C5, it would be a Z06 and nothing else. $20K for a regular coupe is just insanity. That's C6 territory.

I can't imagine anyone is actually paying $20k for a C5 coupe, unless it's got no miles on it, and even then that's just stupidity. All anyone WANTS are Z06s, but not many know how to spot them, I was amazed by how many people asked if my coupe was a Z06 when I was selling it.

An 08+ C6 is the sweet spot IMO.

I'm one of the few who wouldn't shy away from an 06-07 C6.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I can't imagine anyone is actually paying $20k for a C5 coupe, unless it's got no miles on it, and even then that's just stupidity. All anyone WANTS are Z06s, but not many know how to spot them, I was amazed by how many people asked if my coupe was a Z06 when I was selling it.

An 08+ C6 is the sweet spot IMO.

I'm one of the few who wouldn't shy away from an 06-07 C6.

The price would have to be VERY appealing for me, otherwise I'd prefer a C5, personally.

[D Griff]

I can't imagine anyone is actually paying $20k for a C5 coupe, unless it's got no miles on it, and even then that's just stupidity. All anyone WANTS are Z06s, but not many know how to spot them, I was amazed by how many people asked if my coupe was a Z06 when I was selling it.

An 08+ C6 is the sweet spot IMO.

I am pretty sure the C7 will be down to C6 pricing once the C8 ramps up. There really isn't THAT much difference between the C5,C6 and C7. yea yea yea So much innovation much wow, but the the C7 is prime to drop in price IMO.

If a nice C5 is really $20k, if a C7 can be had for $30K, it is absolutely worth 50% more. If I was to move to another Corvette, it would have to be a C6Z or better, otherwise it's kind of pointless. '08+ C6 is a nice upgrade but not worth for. If starting from scratch in the Corvette world, I would go for one though.

I guess it depends what you want to do and which exterior styling you like. A high miles C5 for $10-12K is a pretty sweet deal for a track car. I wouldn't pay more than maybe $13K for a C5 or $20K for a Z06, personally. Hell, I bought mine 6.5 years ago for $18K, they shouldn't still cost that.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I am pretty sure the C7 will be down to C6 pricing once the C8 ramps up. There really isn't THAT much difference between the C5,C6 and C7. yea yea yea So much innovation much wow, but the the C7 is prime to drop in price IMO.

If a nice C5 is really $20k, if a C7 can be had for $30K, it is absolutely worth 50% more. If I was to move to another Corvette, it would have to be a C6Z or better, otherwise it's kind of pointless. '08+ C6 is a nice upgrade but not worth for. If starting from scratch in the Corvette world, I would go for one though.

I guess it depends what you want to do and which exterior styling you like. A high miles C5 for $10-12K is a pretty sweet deal for a track car. I wouldn't pay more than maybe $13K for a C5 or $20K for a Z06, personally. Hell, I bought mine 6.5 years ago for $18K, they shouldn't still cost that.

I've started this battle many times, but I wouldn't pay more than ~$3k for more for a Z06. You can make a base 02+ coupe car superior for the same cost.

[max225]

If a nice C5 is really $20k, if a C7 can be had for $30K, it is absolutely worth 50% more. If I was to move to another Corvette, it would have to be a C6Z or better, otherwise it's kind of pointless. '08+ C6 is a nice upgrade but not worth for. If starting from scratch in the Corvette world, I would go for one though.

I guess it depends what you want to do and which exterior styling you like. A high miles C5 for $10-12K is a pretty sweet deal for a track car. I wouldn't pay more than maybe $13K for a C5 or $20K for a Z06, personally. Hell, I bought mine 6.5 years ago for $18K, they shouldn't still cost that.

I've started this battle many times, but I wouldn't pay more than ~$3k for more for a Z06. You can make a base 02+ coupe car superior for the same cost.

I think from a pure performance standpoint a 02+ Z06 is the best C5. It is also a bit more RARE, and it has some very interesting features like, it is 150lb lighter... TITANIUM exhaust from the FUCKTORY, etc etc. Lesbihoenst C5s ride like garbage, so why not get even MORE performance out of the same profile.

I really wanted a Z06, but I settled for the coupe. Yea yea removable roof is fun, but I actually enjoyed the WINDOW a lot more it made the cabin so much bigger feeling, which is important in a cramped space.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I've started this battle many times, but I wouldn't pay more than ~$3k for more for a Z06. You can make a base 02+ coupe car superior for the same cost.

I think from a pure performance standpoint a 02+ Z06 is the best C5. It is also a bit more RARE, and it has some very interesting features like, it is 150lb lighter... TITANIUM exhaust from the FUCKTORY, etc etc. Lesbihoenst C5s ride like garbage, so why not get even MORE performance out of the same profile.

I really wanted a Z06, but I settled for the coupe. Yea yea removable roof is fun, but I actually enjoyed the WINDOW a lot more it made the cabin so much bigger feeling, which is important in a cramped space.

If you wanted to buy something and not touch it, absolutely. But people (used to at least) give away Titanium axle backs that bolt up to the base car, all the suspension stuff bolts on (can also be had for nearly free from Z06 owners), and light weighting can be achieved in many ways. PLUS, the engine isn't that much different (heads mostly), though the transmission is different in gearing.

[max225]

I think from a pure performance standpoint a 02+ Z06 is the best C5. It is also a bit more RARE, and it has some very interesting features like, it is 150lb lighter... TITANIUM exhaust from the FUCKTORY, etc etc. Lesbihoenst C5s ride like garbage, so why not get even MORE performance out of the same profile.

I really wanted a Z06, but I settled for the coupe. Yea yea removable roof is fun, but I actually enjoyed the WINDOW a lot more it made the cabin so much bigger feeling, which is important in a cramped space.

If you wanted to buy something and not touch it, absolutely. But people (used to at least) give away Titanium axle backs that bolt up to the base car, all the suspension stuff bolts on (can also be had for nearly free from Z06 owners), and light weighting can be achieved in many ways. PLUS, the engine isn't that much different (heads mostly), though the transmission is different in gearing.

People also put 40" tires on a 3.6 V6 jeep and claim it rides just fine. Corvette mods are also in a lot of ways... Gotta remember the CUSTOM HOOD LINERS with Eagles and FREEDUMB.

I can't believe how common those were.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

If you wanted to buy something and not touch it, absolutely. But people (used to at least) give away Titanium axle backs that bolt up to the base car, all the suspension stuff bolts on (can also be had for nearly free from Z06 owners), and light weighting can be achieved in many ways. PLUS, the engine isn't that much different (heads mostly), though the transmission is different in gearing.

People also put 40" tires on a 3.6 V6 jeep and claim it rides just fine. Corvette mods are also in a lot of ways... Gotta remember the CUSTOM HOOD LINERS with Eagles and FREEDUMB.

I can't believe how common those were.

Yea, I'm just talking about bolting OEM parts to the car. Lots of stupidity outside of that for sure. Those hood liners.... Almost as bad as airbrushing fiberglass interior parts and whatnot.

[max225]

People also put 40" tires on a 3.6 V6 jeep and claim it rides just fine. Corvette mods are also in a lot of ways... Gotta remember the CUSTOM HOOD LINERS with Eagles and FREEDUMB.

I can't believe how common those were.

Yea, I'm just talking about bolting OEM parts to the car. Lots of stupidity outside of that for sure. Those hood liners.... Almost as bad as airbrushing fiberglass interior parts and whatnot.

Yea I hear you... my previous C5 owner transferred the Z06 bars and suspension to my "base" coupe. I was just pointing out that the factory Z06 unmodded is an epic car. I do think it is worth a premium and as most of them seem to be getting butchered with people that think THEY KNOW BETTER AND 1000WHP BRO, the clean nice examples have commanded a premium which I think will continue to increase.

The older I get the more OEM till I DIE i get...

[max225]

I just remembered a few more features...
Rear brake cooling ducts... better wheels... also. Not to mention the higher rev line and various minor engine improvements.

They have been hovering around 30k forever, so if you "don't drive it" more than 2k miles a year it will retain all it's value.
And frankly... who wants to spend more than 2k miles a year in one.. unless you have to drive to at rack 200 miles round trip.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Chevrolet ... Swpd9fuEDJ

[Huckleberry]

I'm one of the few who wouldn't shy away from an 06-07 C6.

The price would have to be VERY appealing for me, otherwise I'd prefer a C5, personally.

Before the COVID retard pricing, the LS2 C6s were dipping into the teens. I haven't seen where they are at recently, mostly because everything is sky high and I have no desire to buy.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

The price would have to be VERY appealing for me, otherwise I'd prefer a C5, personally.

Before the COVID retard pricing, the LS2 C6s were dipping into the teens. I haven't seen where they are at recently, mostly because everything is sky high and I have no desire to buy.

High teens is a STRONG value proposition there IMO.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

I just remembered a few more features...
Rear brake cooling ducts... better wheels... also. Not to mention the higher rev line and various minor engine improvements.

They have been hovering around 30k forever, so if you "don't drive it" more than 2k miles a year it will retain all it's value.
And frankly... who wants to spend more than 2k miles a year in one.. unless you have to drive to at rack 200 miles round trip.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Chevrolet ... Swpd9fuEDJ

Brake ducts just look cool, worthless unless at speed on the track. I picked up a set of flawless Z06 wheels for $500 from a dude "upgrading".

$30k is for that car IMO.

[max225]

I just remembered a few more features...
Rear brake cooling ducts... better wheels... also. Not to mention the higher rev line and various minor engine improvements.

They have been hovering around 30k forever, so if you "don't drive it" more than 2k miles a year it will retain all it's value.
And frankly... who wants to spend more than 2k miles a year in one.. unless you have to drive to at rack 200 miles round trip.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Chevrolet ... Swpd9fuEDJ

Brake ducts just look cool, worthless unless at speed on the track. I picked up a set of flawless Z06 wheels for $500 from a dude "upgrading".

$30k is for that car IMO.

It sort of has been hovering in that range for the last 15 years. Granted money devalued so the car devalued also.

[Huckleberry]

PLUS, the engine isn't that much different (heads mostly), though the transmission is different in gearing.

Those 243 heads fetch a premium due to the hollow intake and sodium exhaust valves. No other 243/799 casting got those valves. The LS6 block was a different casting from the LS1, the camshaft was more akin to the LS2's cam specs, and the LS6 intake is superior, as well. Of course, by the time 03/04 rolled around, I believe all of the remaining LS1 cars got the LS6 block and intake since GM was moving to Gen IV.

[ChrisoftheNorth]

PLUS, the engine isn't that much different (heads mostly), though the transmission is different in gearing.

Those 243 heads fetch a premium due to the hollow intake and sodium exhaust valves. No other 243/799 casting got those valves. The LS6 block was a different casting from the LS1, the camshaft was more akin to the LS2's cam specs, and the LS6 intake is superior, as well. Of course, by the time 03/04 rolled around, I believe all of the remaining LS1 cars got the LS6 block and intake since GM was moving to Gen IV.

In 03+ cars, the only engine differences are indeed heads and cam. Heads are rare because of the valves, but go aftermarket for superior performance. Same for cam TBH.

[Huckleberry]

Yea, I'm just talking about bolting OEM parts to the car. Lots of stupidity outside of that for sure. Those hood liners.... Almost as bad as airbrushing fiberglass interior parts and whatnot.

Yea I hear you... my previous C5 owner transferred the Z06 bars and suspension to my "base" coupe. I was just pointing out that the factory Z06 unmodded is an epic car. I do think it is worth a premium and as most of them seem to be getting butchered with people that think THEY KNOW BETTER AND 1000WHP BRO, the clean nice examples have commanded a premium which I think will continue to increase.

The older I get the more OEM till I DIE i get...

I have a pair of LS7 manifolds hanging around just in case I decide to jump into a C5/C6. Cheap upgrade that adds power without the clearance issues of headers. I just need to procure some LS7 midpipes and then it will be a bolt-in ordeal.

I've done the power thing with the GTO being 500 at the wheels, and that motor isn't nearly tapped yet. So, it is liberating to not feel the need to try and achieve ridiculous power numbers for the dyno dick swinging contests and simply concentrate on having a motor that runs well.

[Huckleberry]

Those 243 heads fetch a premium due to the hollow intake and sodium exhaust valves. No other 243/799 casting got those valves. The LS6 block was a different casting from the LS1, the camshaft was more akin to the LS2's cam specs, and the LS6 intake is superior, as well. Of course, by the time 03/04 rolled around, I believe all of the remaining LS1 cars got the LS6 block and intake since GM was moving to Gen IV.

In 03+ cars, the only engine differences are indeed heads and cam. Heads are rare because of the valves, but go aftermarket for superior performance. Same for cam TBH.

I agree. I wouldn't be breaking a motor down to swap in other stock parts. Much more would be gained going with some ported castings for not much more money.

I still want to get my dad's Impala on the dyno, since I did build that with OE parts. I'm legitimately curious what the power curve looks like:
5.3 with flattop pistons
LS6 intake
862 heads
LS2 cam and springs
LS7 lifters
LS7 Z/28 tri-y manifolds

[ChrisoftheNorth]

In 03+ cars, the only engine differences are indeed heads and cam. Heads are rare because of the valves, but go aftermarket for superior performance. Same for cam TBH.

I agree. I wouldn't be breaking a motor down to swap in other stock parts. Much more would be gained going with some ported castings for not much more money.

I still want to get my dad's Impala on the dyno, since I did build that with OE parts. I'm legitimately curious what the power curve looks like:
5.3 with flattop pistons
LS6 intake
862 heads
LS2 cam and springs
LS7 lifters
LS7 Z/28 tri-y manifolds

I doubt it makes a ton of power, but it's probably plenty and stupid reliable. I love that approach personally.

[CaleDeRoo]

Confirmed it was Troy's car

[ChrisoftheNorth]

Confirmed it was Troy's car