Soviet EV and taco chronicles + future ponderings about Fendie

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wap wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:49 pm
Detroit wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:41 pm
That's exactly the point. ANY company has a fixed amount of resources, and Tesla clearly decides to deploy them toward developing technology instead of focusing on perfect fit and finish. Arguably, the tech is more usable to the buyer than perfect bumper alignment and no scratches (that I agree, just touch up and :aintcare: ).

I wonder how Rivians will look if they're still around in a few years producing en masse. Or Lucid. Or any of these other techy car startups. We may actually see a shift in the industry away from perfect fit and finish and toward a tech arms race. Which again, isn't BAD, but is certainly a departure from industry norms.

I find it pretty fascinating, really.
I'm really :popcorn: about Lucid. On paper they sound :amaze: , new battery and motor tech, etc, and I believe they've started actual production. The Air just won Motor Trend's COTY award FWIW (and I know it ain't much).

https://www.motortrend.com/news/lucid-a ... -the-year/
I really really don't trust these guys... they share an office complex with us btw... :yikes:
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:58 pm
wap wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:49 pm
I'm really :popcorn: about Lucid. On paper they sound :amaze: , new battery and motor tech, etc, and I believe they've started actual production. The Air just won Motor Trend's COTY award FWIW (and I know it ain't much).

https://www.motortrend.com/news/lucid-a ... -the-year/
I really really don't trust these guys... they share an office complex with us btw... :yikes:
You can't buy the award, but you can significantly influence it. Ram won truck of the year an "unprecedented" 3 years in a row for a reason. I know this for a fact.

FCA lets MT editors into the design area to check out new stuff and get their "opinion". Most OEMs treat design like FT Knox, so the editors feel super special AND feel like they had input, which makes them want to vote for themselves in a way.

:disgust: pretty worthless award.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Ram was the best truck for non truck people for those three years. I agree with them there.
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CaleDeRoo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:36 pm Ram was the best truck for non truck people for those three years. I agree with them there.
The HD Ram was REALLY better than the new F-150? And the TRX was better than the Ford Super Dutys?

:notsure:
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:58 pm
wap wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:49 pm
I'm really :popcorn: about Lucid. On paper they sound :amaze: , new battery and motor tech, etc, and I believe they've started actual production. The Air just won Motor Trend's COTY award FWIW (and I know it ain't much).

https://www.motortrend.com/news/lucid-a ... -the-year/
I really really don't trust these guys... they share an office complex with us btw... :yikes:
:butwhy:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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Detroit wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:06 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:58 pm

I really really don't trust these guys... they share an office complex with us btw... :yikes:
You can't buy the award, but you can significantly influence it. Ram won truck of the year an "unprecedented" 3 years in a row for a reason. I know this for a fact.

FCA lets MT editors into the design area to check out new stuff and get their "opinion". Most OEMs treat design like FT Knox, so the editors feel super special AND feel like they had input, which makes them want to vote for themselves in a way.

:disgust: pretty worthless award.
:|
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:58 pm

I really really don't trust these guys... they share an office complex with us btw... :yikes:
:butwhy:
They nearly failed multiple times … I think their claimed range is bogus, because they are likely going to kill their battery doing it (you always have to leave safety margins on these ) their battery capacity is slightly higher than other cars but the advertised range is +30% something just doesn’t add up.

Essentially like a suburban getting 30 mpg. Yes yes I know motortrend took some prototype from la to the Bay Area to prove it out.

Also now that im a “Tesla owner” I can see how long it took for them to get here and there is still a lot left to be desired. An absolute new comer to this … especially at nearly double the cost of a comparable Tesla presents a huge :butwhy:

The EQS is a far more interesting alternative.
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:21 pm
wap wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm

:butwhy:
They nearly failed multiple times … I think their claimed range is bogus, because they are likely going to kill their battery doing it (you always have to leave safety margins on these ) their battery capacity is slightly higher than other cars but the advertised range is +30% something just doesn’t add up.

Essentially like a suburban getting 30 mpg. Yes yes I know motortrend took some prototype from la to the Bay Area to prove it out.

Also now that im a “Tesla owner” I can see how long it took for them to get here and there is still a lot left to be desired. An absolute new comer to this … especially at nearly double the cost of a comparable Tesla presents a huge :butwhy:

The EQS is a far more interesting alternative.
You may very well be right, but I hope you're :wrong: . At any rate, the Air looks pretty fabulous, IMO and I hope their claims are not :fakenews:
Time will tell...
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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I want them all to succeed to be honest. In particular rivian…
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:21 pm
wap wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm

:butwhy:
They nearly failed multiple times … I think their claimed range is bogus, because they are likely going to kill their battery doing it (you always have to leave safety margins on these ) their battery capacity is slightly higher than other cars but the advertised range is +30% something just doesn’t add up.

Essentially like a suburban getting 30 mpg. Yes yes I know motortrend took some prototype from la to the Bay Area to prove it out.

Also now that im a “Tesla owner” I can see how long it took for them to get here and there is still a lot left to be desired. An absolute new comer to this … especially at nearly double the cost of a comparable Tesla presents a huge :butwhy:

The EQS is a far more interesting alternative.
The EQS looks lavish, definitely a nice contender, maybe the nicest. I'm perplexed though, aside from warp speed electric power, i thought that the idea of EVs is to be more green? I go on EQS portal and these guys are marketing 20 to 22" :ramz: . Ain't nobody thinking about the environment with these purchases, it's all just top 5%ers buying the latest :fancy: status symbol. Not saying that's you, your stitch as a car enthusiast is to sample everything interesting available on the market, especially those that technically don't cost anything to own. Kudos for that effort.
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Tarspin wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:41 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:21 pm
They nearly failed multiple times … I think their claimed range is bogus, because they are likely going to kill their battery doing it (you always have to leave safety margins on these ) their battery capacity is slightly higher than other cars but the advertised range is +30% something just doesn’t add up.

Essentially like a suburban getting 30 mpg. Yes yes I know motortrend took some prototype from la to the Bay Area to prove it out.

Also now that im a “Tesla owner” I can see how long it took for them to get here and there is still a lot left to be desired. An absolute new comer to this … especially at nearly double the cost of a comparable Tesla presents a huge :butwhy:

The EQS is a far more interesting alternative.
The EQS looks lavish, definitely a nice contender, maybe the nicest. I'm perplexed though, aside from warp speed electric power, i thought that the idea of EVs is to be more green? I go on EQS portal and these guys are marketing 20 to 22" :ramz: . Ain't nobody thinking about the environment with these purchases, it's all just top 5%ers buying the latest :fancy: status symbol. Not saying that's you, your stitch as a car enthusiast is to sample everything interesting available on the market, especially those that technically don't cost anything to own. Kudos for that effort.
I’m still confused by the “green” there is nothing green about EVs unless the batteries and power are clean. They are just the future :doe: from a driving experience. EQS is Slow as balls compared to a Tesla but it has an epic interior imo. And it’s made by one of the best brands on earth. I really want it to be good and I want mb to apply the learnings to their other Evs.
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:48 pm
Tarspin wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:41 pm

The EQS looks lavish, definitely a nice contender, maybe the nicest. I'm perplexed though, aside from warp speed electric power, i thought that the idea of EVs is to be more green? I go on EQS portal and these guys are marketing 20 to 22" :ramz: . Ain't nobody thinking about the environment with these purchases, it's all just top 5%ers buying the latest :fancy: status symbol. Not saying that's you, your stitch as a car enthusiast is to sample everything interesting available on the market, especially those that technically don't cost anything to own. Kudos for that effort.
I’m still confused by the “green” there is nothing green about EVs unless the batteries and power are clean. They are just the future :doe: from a driving experience. EQS is Slow as balls compared to a Tesla but it has an epic interior imo. And it’s made by one of the best brands on earth. I really want it to be good and I want mb to apply the learnings to their other Evs.
The .gov has decided that EVs are more green, and so that's what we're doing. Never mind that cradle to grave they're probably as bad or worse than ICE vehicles, just kick the can down the road.

ICE has so much left in it, especially when you factor in advancements in synthetic fuels and whatnot. :ohwell: doesn't matter now.

Let's just hope that Tesla sets some precedence for performance and tech. So far, all established OEMs seem to be making products that are still lacking in various ways. They'll never match tech because they won't let end customers be beta testers, but I'm optimistic for performance.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:20 pm I want them all to succeed to be honest. In particular rivian…
Absolutely. Rivian in particular did what everyone else deemed impossible...make a really cool EV off-road vehicle. If it's successful, it'll put the entire industry on notice.

I like the R1T FAR more than the massive Hummer.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:20 pm I want them all to succeed to be honest. In particular rivian…
:dat:
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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My main issue is how long it takes anyone to get a good car out there in volumes. Not concepts or fake valuations… but something you and me can buy. I think it took Tesla just about 10 years until the model 3 was widely available and somewhat affordable.

These new companies are far less attainable and require a huge up front cost for questionable quality and none of them are making anything in volume (yet) since it takes years to set up the production
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max225 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:41 am My main issue is how long it takes anyone to get a good car out there in volumes. Not concepts or fake valuations… but something you and me can buy. I think it took Tesla just about 10 years until the model 3 was widely available and somewhat affordable.

These new companies are far less attainable and require a huge up front cost for questionable quality and none of them are making anything in volume (yet) since it takes years to set up the production
I saw my first ever Polestar yesterday on the road. This is backed by an established auto company which is backed by some major Indian money. All of that to say, I unfortunately think you're correct. The major auto makers could maybe :doit: but they just don't seem to be forward thinking enough to offer anything compelling.

I am actually seeing a lot of ID4s around here now... talk about blah. The Mach-E seems the only thing that really gives Tessie a run for its money.
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Image

Check this out. You can remotely access your vehicle and access 1/4 cameras to see essentially a full 360 around it. You can also talk through the phone app and the car has speakers on the exterior to perhaps deter thief’s ?!

That’s wild
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Tarspin wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:41 pm
max225 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:21 pm
They nearly failed multiple times … I think their claimed range is bogus, because they are likely going to kill their battery doing it (you always have to leave safety margins on these ) their battery capacity is slightly higher than other cars but the advertised range is +30% something just doesn’t add up.

Essentially like a suburban getting 30 mpg. Yes yes I know motortrend took some prototype from la to the Bay Area to prove it out.

Also now that im a “Tesla owner” I can see how long it took for them to get here and there is still a lot left to be desired. An absolute new comer to this … especially at nearly double the cost of a comparable Tesla presents a huge :butwhy:

The EQS is a far more interesting alternative.
The EQS looks lavish, definitely a nice contender, maybe the nicest. I'm perplexed though, aside from warp speed electric power, i thought that the idea of EVs is to be more green? I go on EQS portal and these guys are marketing 20 to 22" :ramz: . Ain't nobody thinking about the environment with these purchases, it's all just top 5%ers buying the latest :fancy: status symbol. Not saying that's you, your stitch as a car enthusiast is to sample everything interesting available on the market, especially those that technically don't cost anything to own. Kudos for that effort.
Yep it's primarily a big load of :bs:

As it stands today, I don't think they are legitimately better for the environment in most cases, though they can be. Max's example, where he is getting power from his own solar, is likely beneficial. People here on the other hand, are powering their fancy, expensive cars with a lot of coal burning... :notsure:

I have researched this a little bit, I would enjoy lowering my impact when possible, but it is hard to really know what's best. There are so many factors.
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max225 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:41 am My main issue is how long it takes anyone to get a good car out there in volumes. Not concepts or fake valuations… but something you and me can buy. I think it took Tesla just about 10 years until the model 3 was widely available and somewhat affordable.

These new companies are far less attainable and require a huge up front cost for questionable quality and none of them are making anything in volume (yet) since it takes years to set up the production
Producing cars is HARD. Producing at scale is even harder. I feel like all EV startups completely underestimate what it takes to produce a vehicle, especially at scale.

The things aren't that hard to engineer digitally. You can create as many rendering and technical drawings as you want, but understanding how that translates to an assembly line is not easy. Then duplicate it 100k+ times per year and damn.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if at some point the established OEMs just end up being production contractors for EV startups. An EV company develops something :mindblown: and established OEMs build it for them. It's probably the most logical path forward realizing core competencies, but we'll see.

Yet, Tesla has even innovated on manufacturing with the GIANT castings used in the front of some vehicles. Saving a ton of parts and complexity, just requires the largest casting machines in the world. Proving it works in the long run AND is durable is :notsure: but time will tell.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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D Griff wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:50 am
max225 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:41 am My main issue is how long it takes anyone to get a good car out there in volumes. Not concepts or fake valuations… but something you and me can buy. I think it took Tesla just about 10 years until the model 3 was widely available and somewhat affordable.

These new companies are far less attainable and require a huge up front cost for questionable quality and none of them are making anything in volume (yet) since it takes years to set up the production
I saw my first ever Polestar yesterday on the road. This is backed by an established auto company which is backed by some major Indian money. All of that to say, I unfortunately think you're correct. The major auto makers could maybe :doit: but they just don't seem to be forward thinking enough to offer anything compelling.

I am actually seeing a lot of ID4s around here now... talk about blah. The Mach-E seems the only thing that really gives Tessie a run for its money.
Polestar went so far as to actually bring a Polestar 2 and a Polestar 1 to C&C. I've seen a handful on my commute so far, and I like it alot but don't think it's truly competitive.
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CaleDeRoo wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:39 pm
D Griff wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:50 am

I saw my first ever Polestar yesterday on the road. This is backed by an established auto company which is backed by some major Indian money. All of that to say, I unfortunately think you're correct. The major auto makers could maybe :doit: but they just don't seem to be forward thinking enough to offer anything compelling.

I am actually seeing a lot of ID4s around here now... talk about blah. The Mach-E seems the only thing that really gives Tessie a run for its money.
Polestar went so far as to actually bring a Polestar 2 and a Polestar 1 to C&C. I've seen a handful on my commute so far, and I like it alot but don't think it's truly competitive.
Range and performance just aren't competitive. That said, they look good and from an established OEM, they're probably quite decent. I also wonder if the advertised range is actual vs hypothetical like Tesla.
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:25 am
max225 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:41 am My main issue is how long it takes anyone to get a good car out there in volumes. Not concepts or fake valuations… but something you and me can buy. I think it took Tesla just about 10 years until the model 3 was widely available and somewhat affordable.

These new companies are far less attainable and require a huge up front cost for questionable quality and none of them are making anything in volume (yet) since it takes years to set up the production
Producing cars is HARD. Producing at scale is even harder. I feel like all EV startups completely underestimate what it takes to produce a vehicle, especially at scale.

The things aren't that hard to engineer digitally. You can create as many rendering and technical drawings as you want, but understanding how that translates to an assembly line is not easy. Then duplicate it 100k+ times per year and damn.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if at some point the established OEMs just end up being production contractors for EV startups. An EV company develops something :mindblown: and established OEMs build it for them. It's probably the most logical path forward realizing core competencies, but we'll see.

Yet, Tesla has even innovated on manufacturing with the GIANT castings used in the front of some vehicles. Saving a ton of parts and complexity, just requires the largest casting machines in the world. Proving it works in the long run AND is durable is :notsure: but time will tell.
I know I'm :deadhorse: :koolaid: here, but this is where I think Lucent has a bit of a leg up on other EV startups in that they have former established OEM manufacturing dudes on staff. There's a former Ferd guy and maybe someone from FCA ( :notsure: about that one, tbh). Again, time will tell.
:wap: Where are these mangos?
Detroit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm I don't understand anything anymore.
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wap wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:34 pm
Detroit wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:25 am
Producing cars is HARD. Producing at scale is even harder. I feel like all EV startups completely underestimate what it takes to produce a vehicle, especially at scale.

The things aren't that hard to engineer digitally. You can create as many rendering and technical drawings as you want, but understanding how that translates to an assembly line is not easy. Then duplicate it 100k+ times per year and damn.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if at some point the established OEMs just end up being production contractors for EV startups. An EV company develops something :mindblown: and established OEMs build it for them. It's probably the most logical path forward realizing core competencies, but we'll see.

Yet, Tesla has even innovated on manufacturing with the GIANT castings used in the front of some vehicles. Saving a ton of parts and complexity, just requires the largest casting machines in the world. Proving it works in the long run AND is durable is :notsure: but time will tell.
I know I'm :deadhorse: :koolaid: here, but this is where I think Lucent has a bit of a leg up on other EV startups in that they have former established OEM manufacturing dudes on staff. There's a former Ferd guy and maybe someone from FCA ( :notsure: about that one, tbh). Again, time will tell.
They all hire these dudes, and if Tesla is any example, they don't last long. Lured in by high salary and the glitz of "statup lyfe", they quickly realize that the world they come from is not the same as the new one and got back to one of the OEMs with a new higher salary and fancy title since they have experience on "the other side". I noticed this happen at both GM and FCA (people coming back from Tesla at the time).
Desertbreh wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm My guess would be that Chris took some time off because he has read the dialogue on this page 1,345 times and decided to spend some of his free time doing something besides beating a horse to death.
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Detroit wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:40 pm
wap wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:34 pm

I know I'm :deadhorse: :koolaid: here, but this is where I think Lucent has a bit of a leg up on other EV startups in that they have former established OEM manufacturing dudes on staff. There's a former Ferd guy and maybe someone from FCA ( :notsure: about that one, tbh). Again, time will tell.
They all hire these dudes, and if Tesla is any example, they don't last long. Lured in by high salary and the glitz of "statup lyfe", they quickly realize that the world they come from is not the same as the new one and got back to one of the OEMs with a new higher salary and fancy title since they have experience on "the other side". I noticed this happen at both GM and FCA (people coming back from Tesla at the time).
I have interviewed people from tesla. There is some major Chaos over there... and that's by design. Sink or swim baby. And 100 year old company corp dudes... can't handle that. Because they won't have a "dude" for a powerpoint preso and an "admin" to handle calendars.
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max225 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm
Detroit wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:40 pm
They all hire these dudes, and if Tesla is any example, they don't last long. Lured in by high salary and the glitz of "statup lyfe", they quickly realize that the world they come from is not the same as the new one and got back to one of the OEMs with a new higher salary and fancy title since they have experience on "the other side". I noticed this happen at both GM and FCA (people coming back from Tesla at the time).
I have interviewed people from tesla. There is some major Chaos over there... and that's by design. Sink or swim baby. And 100 year old company corp dudes... can't handle that. Because they won't have a "dude" for a powerpoint preso and an "admin" to handle calendars.
I hope I'm retired by the time I'm that disfunctional.
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